Lawless Ones subverting the truth in Christ.

[haz]

I have been to both sides of this argument. And, most of the time this is the results, one side thinks the other is lawless while the reverse says the other side is saved by their works.

Hi Sr.Brandon,

True some here may just be misunderstood. But there are others here who are from extreme opposites just like we see in scripture. Grace and works of the law cannot be mixed (Rom 11:6).

Gal 4:21-29
[sup] "[/sup]Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? [sup] [/sup]For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman.[sup] [/sup]But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,[sup] [/sup]which things are symbolic. For these are the[sup] [/sup]two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar[sup] [/sup]for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children[sup] [/sup]but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.................[sup] [/sup]Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now"

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Sr.Brandon,

True some here may just be misunderstood. But there are others here who are from extreme opposites just like we see in scripture. Grace and works of the law cannot be mixed (Rom 11:6).

Gal 4:21-29
[sup]"[/sup]Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? [sup] [/sup]For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman.[sup] [/sup]But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,[sup] [/sup]which things are symbolic. For these are the[sup] [/sup]two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar[sup] [/sup]for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children[sup] [/sup]but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.................[sup] [/sup]Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now"

The bible states many heavenly principles...

-Seek and you will find

-the wages of sin is death

-we reap what we sow

-believe and you will be saved

-if we shrink back we will be condemned

-obey the commanments

Some on this forum call these principles..."legalisms" or laws. But theses same people choose the "legalism" they want...say..."believe and be saved" and completely ignore all the rest by creating a man made religion they call "the grace gospel". This false fantasy gospel is made from selecting certain "legalistic" verses then calling the other verses they choose not to join their human reasoning..."The gospel of works". Those who try to bring balance and reality by looking at the whole message are then labeled "legalistic".

But those who choose certain verses from a message from God while ignoring the weightier parts are actually "crazy" and "foolish". God will not be mocked.

2Pe_1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

 

[haz]

The bible states many heavenly principles...

-Seek and you will find

-the wages of sin is death

-we reap what we sow

-believe and you will be saved

-if we shrink back we will be condemned

-obey the commanments

Some on this forum call these principles..."legalisms" or laws. But theses same people choose the "legalism" they want...say..."believe and be saved" and completely ignore all the rest by creating a man made religion they call "the grace gospel". This false fantasy gospel is made from selecting certain "legalistic" verses then calling the other verses they choose not to join their human reasoning..."The gospel of works". Those who try to bring balance and reality by looking at the whole message are then labeled "legalistic".

But those who choose certain verses from a message from God while ignoring the weightier parts are actually "crazy" and "foolish". God will not be mocked.

2Pe_1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Hi Episkopos,

Still using the old "straw man" tactic, I see.

I haven't found anyone referring to those principles from scripture as "legalism" "or laws", as you falsely claim. Sadly it's just another one of the many fantasies you cherish to support your works of the law rebellion against God.

You claim that believing in Jesus in pointless in regards to eternity if you are not keeping the 10 commandments perfectly. Here we see your doctrine mixes grace and works of the law. Your foolishness in mixing these two, claiming its balanced and realistic, is nothing more than Episkopos-fantasy.
We even see you state that perfectly keeping the works of the law part of your mixed-up doctrine as being the "weightier" part compared to the grace part. Such distortion of the truth shows that your in unbelief.

2Cor 3:7-11
"But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? [sup] [/sup]For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. [sup] [/sup]For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. [sup] [/sup]For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

Rom 11:6
"[sup] [/sup]And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

Episkopos, your mixing the ministry of death/condemnation with the much more glorious ministry of Righteousness/Spirit. But these two cannot be mixed.

Consider 2Pet 2:12-22 about those trying to deceive others into righteousness by works of the law.

[sup] [/sup]"But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, [sup] [/sup]and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, [sup] [/sup]having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. [sup] [/sup]They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; [sup] [/sup]but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.
These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
[sup] [/sup]For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. [sup] [/sup]While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. [sup] [/sup]For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. [sup] [/sup]For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. [sup] [/sup]But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

Still using the old "straw man" tactic, I see.

I haven't found anyone referring to those principles from scripture as "legalism" "or laws", as you falsely claim. Sadly it's just another one of the many fantasies you cherish to support your works of the law rebellion against God.

You claim that believing in Jesus in pointless in regards to eternity if you are not keeping the 10 commandments perfectly. Here we see your doctrine mixes grace and works of the law. Your foolishness in mixing these two, claiming its balanced and realistic, is nothing more than Episkopos-fantasy.
We even see you state that perfectly keeping the works of the law part of your mixed-up doctrine as being the "weightier" part compared to the grace part. Such distortion of the truth shows that your in unbelief.

2Cor 3:7-11
"But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? [sup] [/sup]For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. [sup] [/sup]For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. [sup] [/sup]For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

Rom 11:6
"[sup] [/sup]And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

Episkopos, your mixing the ministry of death/condemnation with the much more glorious ministry of Righteousness/Spirit. But these two cannot be mixed.

Consider 2Pet 2:12-22 about those trying to deceive others into righteousness by works of the law.

"But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, [sup] [/sup]and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, [sup] [/sup]having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. [sup] [/sup]They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; [sup] [/sup]but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.
These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. [sup] [/sup]While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. [sup] [/sup]For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. [sup] [/sup]For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. [sup] [/sup]But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

I am actually speaking of the reality and the truth of the power of the gospel. Grace overcomes sin and the gospel empowers us to fulfill the commandments of God. Too simple?

 

[haz]

Hi Episkopos,

Really, it would be more appropriate to call you "Allotriepiskopos".

After all it's Christ who is our shepherd, Bishop (1Pet 2:25) and not you.

Just curious though whether you actually do see yourself as a Bishop/Shepherd/Overseer over other believers?

Your claim that your gospel may be too simple is your own false claim. You even admit that your doctrine makes it harder to attain Christ. And your mixing grace with works of the law will certanily do that. Your lukewarm doctrine leads to a bad outcome (Rev 3:16).
Your doctrine is against the simplicity of Christ.

1Cor 11:3
"[sup] [/sup]But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ"

 

[Rach1370]

The gospel of grace is about the power to become sons of God...not a free for all in the flesh through a repealing of irksome laws that tend to limit our freedom of doing what we feel like. :)

While the gospel can be twisted in this manner, you will find that anyone who really believes the gospel gives them licence to do whatever they want, are not really saved, and don't really have a clue what it is Jesus came to do.
Assuming that all believers who marvel at the grace of God are people lost in licentiousness and a false gospel is not only wrong, it actually places you in the position many people Paul was arguing against were in.
While living by the saving power of grace brings about many outcomes, there is absolutely no qualifications attached to grace. It comes from Jesus, by Jesus and for Jesus. The bible is repeatedly clear about this...nothing that we can do, or that comes from us, can earn or uphold grace. If we are trying to pin any glory on ourselves for this grace, for our redemption, then we are falling back into the law. It's one or the other...not an intermingling of the two...we either rely on our own ability to follow something perfectly...or we rely on Christ. Witness Paul who says the very same thing in Galatians:

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed....We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified....
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
(Galatians 1:6-9, Galatians 2:15-16, Galatians 3:2-3 ESV)

Pretty clear, I would think.

 

[Sr.Brandon]

True some here may just be misunderstood. But there are others here who are from extreme opposites just like we see in scripture. Grace and works of the law cannot be mixed (Rom 11:6).

May I ask how we know that grace and works of the law can't be mixed?
I gather from Rom 11:6 that they can't be mixed for the same purpose, i.e. salvation. However, never how they were mixed in scripture anyway.
Salvation from slavery was given freely to the Israelites and then a set of commands given. The commands were not so that they could earn salvation again but so that they could abide in their promised land. Yet, during their long history of many mistakes, Taken had grace and mercy on Israel. Not only Israel, in which some were keeping the Mosaic law, but also other nations or Jonah would not have ran away from the command to go to Nineveh. In Jonah, Yahweh is known for being "a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, and relenting from disaster."
Therefore, according to scripture grace and works of the law can be mixed but not for the same purpose. The law never saved Israel, Yahweh did through mercy, grace and compassion. The law never kept Israel in the promised land, Yahweh did through grace, mercy and compassion. The broken law however, got them removed from the promise land.
We should look at Israel's history in order to determine how Yahweh will treat saved sinners.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

Really, it would be more appropriate to call you "Allotriepiskopos".

After all it's Christ who is our shepherd, Bishop (1Pet 2:25) and not you.

Just curious though whether you actually do see yourself as a Bishop/Shepherd/Overseer over other believers?

Your claim that your gospel may be too simple is your own false claim. You even admit that your doctrine makes it harder to attain Christ. And your mixing grace with works of the law will certanily do that. Your lukewarm doctrine leads to a bad outcome (Rev 3:16).
Your doctrine is against the simplicity of Christ.

1Cor 11:3
"[sup] [/sup]But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ"

I am trying to bring a litle reality to the many fantasy stories I see made up due to a faulty personal interpretation of the bible. One must be very careful and fearful when reading the bible so as not to go off on a tangent thus bringing condemnation on ourselves. Remember it was the Pharisees who sought to interpret the bible that received the greatest condemnation. I think we have surpased these in hypocrisy in the present church. The greater the message, the greater the twisting that can take place.

The simplicity that is in Christ is what I am proposing. Just read the bible and don't seek to dilute it with complicated word studies, dualities, and comporomised platitudes. THEN don't attack someone who is bringing the harder verses to bear as if they were just as important as the pet verses that are selected to build a feel good doctrine that serves man's interest.

Then it is simplicity itself! Profound...but simple. :)

Now without any indoctrination impulses and any personal attacks what do the self styled interpreters of the bible say about this? Remember no petty attacking or side stepping...show some honesty...

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


or this...

1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.


or this...

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

or this...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The other tactic is to just ignore these verses and posts like these since these don't really want to understand the truth...they just want to feel good. They read the bible since they think that there is salvation knowledge in it...but the contents point to a real Jesus Christ whom we can actually know and walk in.

 

[Sr.Brandon]

Were not saying that you will never sin right because in context
1 John 2:1-2 ESV

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Episkopos]

Were not saying that you will never sin right because in context
1 John 2:1-2 ESV

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

This applies to all men. Christians are to abide in Christ.

 

[haz]

I am trying to bring a litle reality to the many fantasy stories I see made up due to a faulty personal interpretation of the bible. One must be very careful and fearful when reading the bible so as not to go off on a tangent thus bringing condemnation on ourselves. Remember it was the Pharisees who sought to interpret the bible that received the greatest condemnation. I think we have surpased these in hypocrisy in the present church. The greater the message, the greater the twisting that can take place.

The simplicity that is in Christ is what I am proposing. Just read the bible and don't seek to dilute it with complicated word studies, dualities, and comporomised platitudes. THEN don't attack someone who is bringing the harder verses to bear as if they were just as important as the pet verses that are selected to build a feel good doctrine that serves man's interest.

Then it is simplicity itself! Profound...but simple. :)

Now without any indoctrination impulses and any personal attacks what do the self styled interpreters of the bible say about this? Remember no petty attacking or side stepping...show some honesty...

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


or this...

1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.


or this...

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

or this...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The other tactic is to just ignore these verses and posts like these since these don't really want to understand the truth...they just want to feel good. They read the bible since they think that there is salvation knowledge in it...but the contents point to a real Jesus Christ whom we can actually know and walk in.

Hi Episkopos,

I'm still curious if you really do see yourself as a Bishop/Shepherd (Episkopos) over others? An answer to this question might help in understanding your real motivations.

I'm sure you realize that forums can be confronting venues. But I do find it strange that you feel your being attacked when you yourself likewise "attack" others here claiming they believe fantasies/unreality, etc. I saw in one response you described anothers post as a joke, saying that maybe it was their fingers that typed the message and they had nothing to do with it. Even this post of yours, quoted above, demonstrates the same sort of "attack" that you yourself are facing from my posts. I am exposing the errors in your fantasy-doctrine just as you claim you are doing here. If you describe this as "petty attacking and side-stepping", then you are only showing yourself up as a hypocrite. Please show some honesty.


You have not been able to show from scripture that your doctrine is truth. By your very own words we see that your doctrine makes it harder to attain Christ and that even you are not abiding in Christ as you do not know him. And you then tell us that you are one of the very few with the only truth.

You said: "Just read the bible and don't seek to dilute it with complicated word studies, dualities, and comporomised platitudes"

Is that your way to understanding? Many people just read the Bible with their physical understanding and fail to grasp it.

But it's the Spirit within that gives us understanding. Just as Jesus spoke in parables so it is with all scripture.

1Cor 2:12-14
"[sup] [/sup]Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.[sup] [/sup]But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Matt 13:10,11
"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
[sup] [/sup]He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

As for those scriptures you quoted (1John 2:3-6), see below for scripture to explain them

His commandments to us are in 1John 3:23
[sup] [/sup]And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Who is a liar, as described in 1John 2:4?
1John 2:22
"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ"

How do we walk as Christ walked?
1John 1:7
"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

Rom 8:1
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

2John 1:6
This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. (see 1John 3:23, believe on Jesus and love one another).

As for the other scriptures you quoted saying that Christians cannot sin, see my first post in the forum topic "Are Christians sinners".

But to briefly explain, as Christ is in believers our bodies are dead because of sin (Rom 8:10).
We are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25) and where there is no law there is no transgression (Rom 4:15).
We are righteous, holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), perfected (Heb 10:14), cannot sin, when His seed (Christ) is in us. This has nothing to do with physical evidence in this imperfect world as this physical is dead, because of sin. It was crucified with Christ.

Believe on Jesus.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

I'm still curious if you really do see yourself as a Bishop/Shepherd (Episkopos) over others? An answer to this question might help in understanding your real motivations.

I'm sure you realize that forums can be confronting venues. But I do find it strange that you feel your being attacked when you yourself likewise "attack" others here claiming they believe fantasies/unreality, etc. I saw in one response you described anothers post as a joke, saying that maybe it was their fingers that typed the message and they had nothing to do with it. Even this post of yours, quoted above, demonstrates the same sort of "attack" that you yourself are facing from my posts. I am exposing the errors in your fantasy-doctrine just as you claim you are doing here. If you describe this as "petty attacking and side-stepping", then you are only showing yourself up as a hypocrite. Please show some honesty.


You have not been able to show from scripture that your doctrine is truth. By your very own words we see that your doctrine makes it harder to attain Christ and that even you are not abiding in Christ as you do not know him. And you then tell us that you are one of the very few with the only truth.

You said: "Just read the bible and don't seek to dilute it with complicated word studies, dualities, and comporomised platitudes"

Is that your way to understanding? Many people just read the Bible with their physical understanding and fail to grasp it.

But it's the Spirit within that gives us understanding. Just as Jesus spoke in parables so it is with all scripture.

1Cor 2:12-14
"[sup] [/sup]Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.[sup] [/sup]But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Matt 13:10,11
"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

As for those scriptures you quoted (1John 2:3-6), see below for scripture to explain them

His commandments to us are in 1John 3:23
And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Who is a liar, as described in 1John 2:4?
1John 2:22
"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ"

How do we walk as Christ walked?
1John 1:7
"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

Rom 8:1
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

2John 1:6
This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. (see 1John 3:23, believe on Jesus and love one another).

As for the other scriptures you quoted saying that Christians cannot sin, see my first post in the forum topic "Are Christians sinners".

But to briefly explain, as Christ is in believers our bodies are dead because of sin (Rom 8:10).
We are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25) and where there is no law there is no transgression (Rom 4:15).
We are righteous, holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), perfected (Heb 10:14), cannot sin, when His seed (Christ) is in us. This has nothing to do with physical evidence in this imperfect world as this physical is dead, because of sin. It was crucified with Christ.

Believe on Jesus.

Do you go to the same church as Richard Burger?

I have already dealt extensively with the gnostic heresy that does away with responsibility for one's actions.

 

[Sr.Brandon]

I don't understand your reply.

 

[haz]

Hi SrBrandon,

You questioned Episkopos on 1John 2:1,2, to which he replied with the following (which you did not understand)

"This applies to all men. Christians are to abide in Christ."

Below are some quotes from Episkopos that will help you see what his doctrine claims. This should help you to understand what Episkopos is saying.

"So then if we are not able to keep the commandments of God perfectly then we either are not walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it."
"If one is not able to bring EVERY thought to be in Christ then that one is not abiding in Christ yet"
"So then if we are not able to keep the commandments of God perfectly then we either are not walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it. Sin proves that we are not abiding in Christ. The law is simply revealing who we are."
"Grace is a MEANS of perfectly obeying the law of Christ."
"Your elimination of the law as a gauge shows that you espouse lawlessness."

Episkopos claims that the likes of you and I and even himself, do not abide in Christ as we do not perfectly keep the 10 commandments. And he concludes that being in this state of not abiding in Christ results in death as the soul that sins (does not keep the 10 commandments perfectly) dies.

This is a false gospel which scriptures offer many warnings against.

Consider these scriptures showing what part works of the law plays in our salvation.
Rom 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Gal 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ

Gal 3:11
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

And note also Gal 3:10
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.

Also note Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

Rom 3:24
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

And Rom 4:5,6
"[sup] [/sup]But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:"

Rom 11:6
"[sup] [/sup]And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

 

[Episkopos]

Episkopos claims that the likes of you and I and even himself, do not abide in Christ as we do not perfectly keep the 10 commandments. And he concludes that being in this state of not abiding in Christ results in death as the soul that sins (does not keep the 10 commandments perfectly) dies.

This is a false gospel which scriptures offer many warnings against.

The bible warns us of judgment when we disobey the Lord. The gospel is seen by carnal men as an excuse to keep alive what the word says must die. The errors go so deep that they are stacked on one another until the message loses any sense of reality whatsoever.

We are not to add our own faith in Christ unto a carnally alive man. New life in Christ can only be added after a death in Christ....otherwise we are seeking to add something holy on top of something sinful. You can't pour the Holy Spirit into an already full vessel. So then without a deep repentance and an emptying of the old man from the soul there can be no real experience of Christ. The church is plagued with self justified and self appointed people calling themselves saved as a reward for "accepting" a salvation scheme they think the bible is pushing. But it is Jesus that must do the accepting of us!!! We must be proved and tested. All of this is completely ignored by most in favour of simply adding Jesus to their present lives. A fast food gospel if you will. The problem with this is that there is no real relationship there and no power...no grace to overcome anything at all.

It is ironic that the gospel should be taught by those who have not experienced the power of it. They just wrangle about words so as to present themselves as saved...even condemning those who have experienced (and walk in ) the power that they neglect. Where is the discernment? A person is asked "are you saved" as if this depended on your opinion....if you say "yes" then this proves you are???? Such unreality. We have been warned that many would turn aside to fables...and we are at that time now.

Death before life???

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

You can't have it both ways...you can't be alive to sin and alive to God. You die to sin in order to be alive to God. You can't serve 2 masters. You can't be attached to the old nature AND Christ. You must first die to the old in order to become available to the new. That is biblical teaching.

So as the old man dies the new man can take up residence. As the cup is drained it makes room to be filled by the Spirit. Those who reject this are disqualifying themselves from any part of the kingdom of God. The flesh will always look at others and say "you are no better than I". The condemnation of these is assured who seek to compare men through the eyes of the flesh in order to protect a life that is rooted in the flesh.

BTW...my username has to do with "visitation" from God. God is the inspector of our lives. He judges us now so that we escape judgment later. Only those who have been vetted in this way can then inspect the church as an overseer.

 

[seekandfind]

The bible warns us of judgment when we disobey the Lord. The gospel is seen by carnal men as an excuse to keep alive what the word says must die. The errors go so deep that they are stacked on one another until the message loses any sense of reality whatsoever.

We are not to add our own faith in Christ unto a carnally alive man. New life in Christ can only be added after a death in Christ....otherwise we are seeking to add something holy on top of something sinful. You can't pour the Holy Spirit into an already full vessel. So then without a deep repentance and an emptying of the old man from the soul there can be no real experience of Christ. The church is plagued with self justified and self appointed people calling themselves saved as a reward for "accepting" a salvation scheme they think the bible is pushing. But it is Jesus that must do the accepting of us!!! We must be proved and tested. All of this is completely ignored by most in favour of simply adding Jesus to their present lives. A fast food gospel if you will. The problem with this is that there is no real relationship there and no power...no grace to overcome anything at all.

It is ironic that the gospel should be taught by those who have not experienced the power of it. They just wrangle about words so as to present themselves as saved...even condemning those who have experienced (and walk in ) the power that they neglect. Where is the discernment? A person is asked "are you saved" as if this depended on your opinion....if you say "yes" then this proves you are???? Such unreality. We have been warned that many would turn aside to fables...and we are at that time now.

Death before life???

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

You can't have it both ways...you can't be alive to sin and alive to God. You die to sin in order to be alive to God. You can't serve 2 masters. You can't be attached to the old nature AND Christ. You must first die to the old in order to become available to the new. That is biblical teaching.

So as the old man dies the new man can take up residence. As the cup is drained it makes room to be filled by the Spirit. Those who reject this are disqualifying themselves from any part of the kingdom of God. The flesh will always look at others and say "you are no better than I". The condemnation of these is assured who seek to compare men through the eyes of the flesh in order to protect a life that is rooted in the flesh.

BTW...my username has to do with "visitation" from God. God is the inspector of our lives. He judges us now so that we escape judgment later. Only those who have been vetted in this way can then inspect the church as an overseer.

Amen Episkopos!

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2 Timothy 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2 Timothy 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

It's through the power of Christ that we overcome! Abiding in HIM, examining ourselves, understanding that HE does chasten us when we are judged, even as our own fathers in this world correct us. Sorrowful repentance produces those changes that happen. We can say I'm sorry to someone and keep doing the same things. But when we've been corrected by HIM, and we see just how short we've come, there's not only sorrow, but we understand the fear of the Lord. That's where the real changes happen.

In the above bible passage, see all the things that that are being done that go directly against the commandments? Amazing...

 

[neophyte]

Old Testament law contains elements of natural law—e.g., the condemnation of homosexual activity—to which Christians are bound for that reason, not because of their inclusion in the Old Testament. Christians do not have liberty on these issues.
Also, Christians are not and have never been bound by Old Testament law for its own sake, and those elements of Old Testament law which are not part of the natural law—e.g., the obligation to worship on Saturday —were only ever binding on the Jews. Christians do have liberty on those issues.

 

[haz]

Hi Episkopos,

You said: "my username has to do with "visitation" from God. God is the inspector of our lives. He judges us now so that we escape judgment later. Only those who have been vetted in this way can then inspect the church as an overseer."

Interesting that you see and appoint yourself as an overseer of the church.


You are however correct in saying "The bible warns us of judgment when we disobey the Lord."

Sadly your false gospel is disobedience.

Seekandfind offered an appropriate scripture for those like you in disobedience.
2Tim 3:5
"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

Christ in us is godliness (1Tim 3:16, 1Tim 4:8,) but the power thereof (the gospel of Christ,1Cor 1:18, Rom 1:16, 1Cor 2:5) you deny through your false gospel of grace mixed with works of the law.

Grace cannot be mixed with works (Rom 11:6)

2 Tim 3:5 "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof" is seen also in 1John 2:4 "He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

The works of the law crowd claim they know him, but they do not keep His commandments (1John 3:23, believe on Jesus and love one another).
They are a liar (1John 2:22) and the truth is not in them, denying that Jesus is the Christ by mixing grace with works of the law, thus being in unbelief.

You speak of experiencing the power of the gospel yet you deny the gospel by being under the law to determine righteousness.

Repent, and turn to God.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

You said: "my username has to do with "visitation" from God. God is the inspector of our lives. He judges us now so that we escape judgment later. Only those who have been vetted in this way can then inspect the church as an overseer."

Interesting that you see and appoint yourself as an overseer of the church.

May the Lord forgive your disrespect. I am assuming you are very young. A symptom of the youth today is to rail agaist any form of authority. This follows the biblical prophecy and shows us we are in the last times.

Haz do you respect and obey your parents? Do you respect anyone besides yourself?

You are however correct in saying "The bible warns us of judgment when we disobey the Lord."

Sadly your false gospel is disobedience.

I am showing the way of obedience...but you see obedience as impossible.

Seekandfind offered an appropriate scripture for those like you in disobedience.
2Tim 3:5
"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

I am close to doing this with you...but we are online not face to face. These forums are free speech arenas where anyone can say anything and (think) they are not responsible for what they say.

Christ in us is godliness (1Tim 3:16, 1Tim 4:8,) but the power thereof (the gospel of Christ,1Cor 1:18, Rom 1:16, 1Cor 2:5) you deny through your false gospel of grace mixed with works of the law.

The power of Christ is given to us to enable us to obey the law. The law stands...no man can take it away.

Grace cannot be mixed with works (Rom 11:6)

You don't yet understand what Paul meant by that.

2 Tim 3:5 "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof" is seen also in 1John 2:4 "He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Yes, those who deny the power of Christ will claim to know Him but not be able to keep His commandments. This proves they lie when they say they know Him. There is yet time for you to turn from fables and seek the living God.

The works of the law crowd claim they know him, but they do not keep His commandments (1John 3:23, believe on Jesus and love one another).
They are a liar (1John 2:22) and the truth is not in them, denying that Jesus is the Christ by mixing grace with works of the law, thus being in unbelief.

You speak of experiencing the power of the gospel yet you deny the gospel by being under the law to determine righteousness.

Repent, and turn to God.

Righteousness comes by grace through faith...the evidence of which is a life pleasing to God. What pleases God is that we obey Him.

Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Do you even know what repentance is? I would not use this plea on you since I don't think you understand the meaning of it. It sounds biblical but have you experienced anything at a biblical level with God yet?

 

[mark s]

Yes, those who deny the power of Christ will claim to know Him but not be able to keep His commandments. This proves they lie when they say they know Him.

Again . . . as you've stated that you do not completely keep the 10 commandmants (not to mention the rest!), by your own words you do not know him.

This is the fatal error of works. You can never do enough.