Let God be true and every man a liar - Rom 3:4

[ENOCH2010]

I'm at work right now, I'll have to search the Word when I get home tonight.

 

[DaDad]

I'm at work right now, I'll have to search the Word when I get home tonight.

Hi ENOCH2010,

Hint: The Dayton/Oslo Peace Accord was signed on Sept. 13, 1993, and lasted until Sept. 2000.


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[keras]

So now one can turn to J.R. Church, who authored the book, "Hidden Prophecies In The Psalms", wherein he presented the premise that the Book of Psalms is the 19th Book of the Bible, and is prophetic to the Jews for the 1900s, -- with the Chapter for year. Thus if one read this 19th Book, Chapter 44 = 1944, one should find the holocaust (see verses 11 & 22). Likewise, in Book 19, Chapter 48 = 1948, one should find the international recognition of the Nation of Israel. Etc. Quote #20

Very interesting; I see Psalm 114 [2014] says 'the earth will dance at the presence of the Lord'. This relates with Rev 6:12-17, the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's wrath event. A terrible judgement/punishment by fire - a Coronal Mass Ejection that will cause the fulfilment of all the prophesies about that Day.
This worldwide disaster will be triggered by the commencement of an attack against Israel by Iran and its allies. It will result in the virtual depopulation of the entire Middle East, Ezekiel 30:1-5.
I see this as happening very soon.

 

[DaDad]

...
So now one can turn to J.R. Church, who authored the book, "Hidden Prophecies In The Psalms", wherein he presented the premise that the Book of Psalms is the 19th Book of the Bible, and is prophetic to the Jews for the 1900s, -- with the Chapter for year. Thus if one read this 19th Book, Chapter 44 = 1944, one should find the holocaust (see verses 11 & 22). Likewise, in Book 19, Chapter 48 = 1948, one should find the international recognition of the Nation of Israel. Etc.
...

Very interesting; I see Psalm 114 [2014] says 'the earth will dance at the presence of the Lord'. This relates with Rev 6:12-17, the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's wrath event. A terrible judgement/punishment by fire - a Coronal Mass Ejection that will cause the fulfilment of all the prophesies about that Day.
This worldwide disaster will be triggered by the commencement of an attack against Israel by Iran and its allies. It will result in the virtual depopulation of the entire Middle East, Ezekiel 30:1-5.
I see this as happening very soon.

Hi keras,

I would caution you to not be too quick in assigning times and events which may not turn out as one might anticipate. However, the Prophetic Psalms is MORE SUBSTANTIAL than J.R. Church penned, as there are other confirmations to the 1900's, including Daniel 9, which J.R. Church was apparently not privy to.

And so each of us can participate in the greater tapestry of past, present, and future portents.


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, DaDad.

Hi Retrobyter,



This from a guy who can't find:

Daniel 2:45
the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

... when it's written in plain language.


Caveat emptor.

First of all, no one is selling anything! ("Let the buyer beware," indeed!)

Second, let's not be silly. ALWAYS note who is saying what! The words in Dani'el 2:45 are NOT GOD'S WORDS!!! They are DANI'EL'S words to King Nebuchadnezzar who had the dream! YOU ARE PUTTING TOO MUCH STOCK IN AN ORDER THAT WAS NOT SPECIFIED BY GOD!!! All Dani'el was doing was listing the materials that he saw! The reason why there's no significance to the order is because the order is given differently, again by Dani'el, in Daniel 2:35! You're making a mountain out of a mole hill! It's a DANGEROUS PROSPECT to add one's belief system to God's Word!

Daniel 2:35
35 Bee’dayin daaquw kachadaah parzlaa’ chacpaa’ nchaashaa’ kacpaa’ vdahaVaa’ vahavow k`uwr min idreey qayiT; Uwnsaa’ himown ruwchaa’ vkhaal atar laa’ hishtakhach lhown v’aVnaa’ diy mchaat ltsalmaa’ havaat lTuwr raV uwmlaat kaal ar`aa’:
JPS TaNaKH

35 Bee’dayin = 35 In-that-time
daaquw = was-broken-to-pieces
kachadaah = like-one
parzlaa’ = iron
chacpaa’ = clay
nchaashaa’ = brass
kacpaa’ = silver
vdahaVaa’ = and-gold
vahavow = and-became
k`uwr = like-chaff
min = from
idreey = threshing-floors
qayiT; = of summer;
Uwnsaa’ = And-carried-away
himown = them
ruwchaa’ = a-wind
vkhaal = and-every
atar = place
laa’ = not/no
hishtakhach = was-found
lhown = to/for-them
v’aVnaa’ = and-a-stone
diy = which
mchaat = hit
ltsalmaa’ = to-image/statue
havaat = became
lTuwr = to-a-mountain/hill
raV = great/large
uwmlaat = and-filled
kaal = all/whole
ar`aa’: = land:

Daniel 2:45
45 Kaal qaaVeel diy chazaytaa diy miTuwraa’ itgzeret eVen diy laa’ biydayin vhadeqet parzlaa’ nchaashaa’ chacpaa’ kacpaa’ vdahaVaa’ Elaah RaV howda` lmalkaa’ maah diy lehevee’ achareey dnaah vyatsiyV chelmaa’ uwmheeyman pishreeh:
JPS TaNaKH

45 Kaal = 45 All
qaaVeel = in-front-of
diy = which
chazaytaa = you-saw
diy = which
miTuwraa’ = from-a-mountain
itgzeret = was-cut
eVen = a-stone
diy = that
laa’ = no/without
biydayin = hands
vhadeqet = and-broke-in-pieces
parzlaa’ = iron
nchaashaa’ = brass
chacpaa’ = clay
kacpaa’ = silver
vdahaVaa’ = and-gold
Elaah = God
RaV = Great/Huge
howda` = has-made-known
lmalkaa’ = to-king
maah = what
diy = which
lehevee’ = is-to-exist/happen
achareey = hind-parts
dnaah = of-this-time
vyatsiyV = and-sure/fixed/certain
chelmaa’ = dream
uwmheeyman = and-true
pishreeh: = its-interpretation:

***

Hi ENOCH2010,

Before you believe what you have been told, please be aware of the following difficulties with this Chapter

[SIZE=12pt]1. Daniel 9:2 specifies "years".

2. Daniel 9:2 does not use the simple shama to perceive the prophecy of Jeremiah as though reading that book, but rather the Solomon biyn to perceive the prophecy in the BOOKS.

3. The Daniel 9:25 "going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of any edict from man, but rather an edict directly from GOD. (Per Young.)

4. The Daniel 9:25 seven is one duration with an anointed one "coming" after that duration. (See the RSV, which has it correct.)

5. The Daniel 9:25-26 sixty-two weeks is a second duration with a second anointed one who is cut off after that duration. (See #4.)

6. The "weeks"/"week" are the inconcise Masculine gender text, which are specifically NOT 490 years. (Per Young, Keit, & Kliefoth.)

7. The second anointed one who is cut off is not killed upon the sixty-two, but simply AFTER.

8. The destroyer does not come at the beginning, middle, or upon the end of the seventieth shabuwa, but "shall come" after the seventieth shabuwa.

9. The seven, the sixty-two, the seventieth, and after the seventieth are chronologically connected, with NO ~2,000 year gaps.

10. This prophecy is shut up and sealed until the time of the end, which is approximate to 1948. [/SIZE](Per Dan. 12:4 & 9.)


... and this barely scratches the surface of the difficulties. I'll tell you what, -- how about if we go through these issues, and see if what I explain is backed by Scripture and History. Or you could stick your head in the sand like most religious people and repeat over and over, "I know what I was taught". Your call. :)


With Best Regards,
DD

As for THIS nonsense, LEARN HEBREW (and its sister language, ARAMAIC)! If you're going to teach this ... stuff ... please take the time and effort to learn the language, which so far you've entrusted to others to do for you!

It took me a short while to understand what you were trying to say in point 2. Shaama` is the Hebrew word meaning "HEAR!" It's the SAME WORD as in Deuteronomy 6:4, when Isra'el was told ...
Deuteronomy 6:4-9
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. (phylacteries)
9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates. (mezuzahs)
KJV

Shma` Yisraa'eel YHWH Eloheenuw YHWH echaad! (Modern Jews say "ADONAI" instead of attempting to say the Tetragrammaton so as not to inadvertently "take the Name of the LORD thy God in vain.") These are the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and they are the last words a Jew will say on his/her death bed! The verb "is" is not there and is arbitrarily put where the KJV puts it.

The other word you've quoted is "biynotiy" which means "I separated between" or "I distinguished." Here's the verse in Hebrew (transliterated):

Daniel 9:2
2 Bishnat achat lmaalkhow aniy Daniyee’l biynotiy bacfaariym micpar hashaaniym asher haayaah dbar YHWH el Yirmayaah hanaaViy’ lmalo’vt lchaarVowt Yruwshaalaim shiV`iym shaanaah:
JPS TaNaKH

2 Bishnat = 2 In-year
achat = one/first
lmaalkhow = to-his-reign
aniy = I
Daniyee’l = Daniel
biynotiy = distinguished/separated-between
bacfaariym = in-books/scrolls
micpar = a-number
hashaaniym = of-the-years
asher = which
haayaah = came
dbar = (by)-a-word
YHWH = of-YHWH
el = to
Yirmayaah = Jeremiah
hanaaViy’= the-prophet
lmalo’vt = to-accomplish
lchaarVowt = to-desolations
Yruwshaalaim = of-Jerusalem
shiV`iym = seventy
shaanaah: = year(s).

He was not saying that he learned this number any special way; he was saying that he was HUNTING through the scrolls for some indication how long the captivity would be and happened upon Yirmeyahu's words. Remember, he had no chapter or verse numbers and these were SCROLLS that had to be rolled to be read. They were not easily searched:

Jeremiah 29:10-14
10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.
KJV

The numbers that Gavri'el (Gabriel) gave Dani'el in this chapter are NEW numbers not directly associated with the number that Yirmeyahu was given.

I'll deal more with this later.

 

[DaDad]

Hi Enoch2010,

As proposed, this answer is found in the investigation of #2 as promised:

2. Daniel 9:2 does not use the simple shama to perceive the prophecy of Jeremiah as though reading that book, but rather the Soloman biyn to perceive the prophecy in the BOOKS.

In 1 Kings 3, GOD asks Solomon what HE should give him, for which Solomon asks for the simple understanding (shama) of the people's needs, -- kind of like reading the Editorial page of a newspaper. GOD responds by giving him ~what he asked for~, but HE DIDN'T! Instead of a simple understanding as requested, GOD gave him a SUPERIOR understanding (biyn), such that no man before him and no man after him shall have such understanding.

And so in Daniel 9:2, we find that same Solomon Wisdom biyn, which suggests that Daniel did not simply read the 25th Chapter of Jeremiah, but instead used a SUPERIOR wisdom to "perceive in the BOOKS" the seventy years.

So now one can turn to J.R. Church, who authored the book, "Hidden Prophecies In The Psalms", wherein he presented the premise that the Book of Psalms is the 19th Book of the Bible, and is prophetic to the Jews for the 1900s, -- with the Chapter for year. Thus if one read this 19th Book, Chapter 44 = 1944, one should find the holocaust (see verses 11 & 22). Likewise, in Book 19, Chapter 48 = 1948, one should find the international recognition of the Nation of Israel. Etc.


So now we're at item #3, which brings the Book of Psalms to a specific Chapter/year:

3. The Daniel 9:25 "going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of any edict from man, but rather and edict directly from GOD. (Per Young.)


Per the above, did you find the Chapter in which the "going forth of the word" is presented? (This is not "grade school" where everything is provided. It's "college" where you are responsible to research the answers.)


With Best Regards,
DD

To All,

I stand by my post as provided. And if any should question the veracity of the premise, I would encourage them to read 1 Kings 3 to either validate or invalidate the shama / biyn context as asserted.


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, everyone!

It’s EXTREMELY IMPORTANT that you understand that “biyn” is NOT a word that describes some special understanding! It simply means “to distinguish between” two or more different things!

The Hebrew word for “wisdom” is “chaakhmaah” (OT:2451), erroneously transliterated as “chokmah!” The Aramaic word is the same (OT:2452). The root word for the family of words is “chaakham” (OT:2449).

2449 chaakham = to be wise (verb)
A. 2450 chaakhaam = wise (adjective)
B. 2451 chaakhmaah = wisdom (feminine noun)
B.1. 2452 chaakhmaah (Aramaic) = wisdom (feminine noun)
B.2. 2454 chaakhmowt = wisdom (plural)
C. 2453 Chakhmowniy = skillful (a name)

THIS is the word that describes the special understanding of Smoh haMelekh (King Solomon).

 

[DaDad]

To All,

Please validate ANY doctrine proposed, and find the TRUTH of GOD's Word:

...
2. Daniel 9:2 does not use the simple shama to perceive the prophecy of Jeremiah as though reading that book, but rather the Soloman biyn to perceive the prophecy in the BOOKS.

In 1 Kings 3, GOD asks Solomon what HE should give him, for which Solomon asks for the simple understanding (shama) of the people's needs, -- kind of like reading the Editorial page of a newspaper. GOD responds by giving him ~what he asked for~, but HE DIDN'T! Instead of a simple understanding as requested, GOD gave him a SUPERIOR understanding (biyn), such that no man before him and no man after him shall have such understanding.

And so in Daniel 9:2, we find that same Solomon Wisdom biyn, which suggests that Daniel did not simply read the 25th Chapter of Jeremiah, but instead used a SUPERIOR wisdom to "perceive in the BOOKS" the seventy years.

...

To All,

I stand by my post as provided. And if any should question the veracity of the premise, I would encourage them to read 1 Kings 3 to either validate or invalidate the shama / biyn context as asserted.


With Best Regards,
DD

1Ki 3:9
Give therefore thy servant an understanding [H8085, shama] heart to judge thy people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this thy so great a people?


1Ki 3:12
Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding [H995, biyn] heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee.



Dan 9:2
In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood [H995, biyn] by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.


Per the "Blue Letter Bible":
1 Kings 3:9 -- http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Ki&c=3&t=KJV#s=t_conc_294009
1 Kings 3:12 -- http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Ki&c=3&t=KJV#s=t_conc_294012
Daniel 9:2 -- http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Dan&c=9&t=KJV#s=t_conc_859002


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, DaDad, and Chag Pesach Sameach.

To All,

Please validate ANY doctrine proposed, and find the TRUTH of GOD's Word:







1Ki 3:9
Give therefore thy servant an understanding [H8085, shama] heart to judge thy people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this thy so great a people?


1Ki 3:12
Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding [H995, biyn] heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee.



Dan 9:2
In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood [H995, biyn] by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.


Per the "Blue Letter Bible":
1 Kings 3:9 -- http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Ki&c=3&t=KJV#s=t_conc_294009
1 Kings 3:12 -- http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Ki&c=3&t=KJV#s=t_conc_294012
Daniel 9:2 -- http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Dan&c=9&t=KJV#s=t_conc_859002


With Best Regards,
DD

If you're going to be nit-picky, you'd BETTER LEARN HEBREW (and Greek)!

Here are the verses in 1 Kings 3:9 and 12 in Hebrew (transliterated):

1 Kings 3:9
9 Vnaatataa l`aVdkhaa leeV shomeea` lishpoT et `amkhaa lhaaViyn beeyn TowV lraa`: Kiy miy yuwkhal lishpoT et `amkhaa hakaaVeed hazeh:
JPS Hebrew/English TaNaKH

9 Vnaatataa = 9 And-(you)-give
l`aVdkhaa = to-your-servant
leeV = a-heart
shomeea` = understanding
lishpoT = to-judge
et = (the following word is the direct object)
`amkhaa = your-people
lhaaViyn = to-the-discerning
beeyn = between
TowV = good
lraa`: = to/for-bad:
Kiy = For
miy = who
yuwkhal = is-able
lishpoT = to-judge
et = (the following word is the direct object)
`amkhaa = your-people
hakaaVeed = the-heavy/numerous
hazeh: = this?

…

1 Kings 3:12
12 Hineeh `aasiytiy kidVaareykhaa: Hineeh naatatiy lkhaa leeV chaakhaam vnaaVown asher kaamowkhaa lo’ haayaah lfaaneykhaa v’achareykhaa lo’ yaaquwm kaamowkhaa:
JPS Hebrew/English TaNaKH

12 Hineeh = 12 Look
`aasiytiy = I-have-done
kidVaareykhaa: = like/according-to-your-words
Hineeh = Look
naatatiy = I-have-given
lkhaa = to-you
leeV = a-heart
chaakhaam = wise
vnaaVown = and-an-understanding
asher = so-that
kaamowkhaa = like-you
lo’ = no/not
haayaah = there-was
lfaaneykhaa = before-you
v’achareykhaa = and-after-you
lo’ = no/not
yaaquwm = any-shall-arise
kaamowkhaa: = like-you:

(All instances of "you" and "your" above are singular.)

Using the version you quoted above, you're forgetting the words "discern" in verse 9 and "wise" in verse 12! This is because, for whatever reasons, you are focused on the particular words to which you have gravitated. In verse 9, Smoh (Solomon) is asking God for a heart that LISTENS to the people - a heart that is ATTUNED to the people's needs - so he can rightly judge between matters! In verse 12, God said, "Okay, I've given you a wise and discerning heart!"

Quit trying to make this difficult!

 

[DaDad]

To All,

Please validate ANY doctrine proposed, and find the TRUTH of GOD's Word:



1Ki 3:9
Give therefore thy servant an understanding [H8085, shama] heart to judge thy people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this thy so great a people?


1Ki 3:12
Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding [H995, biyn] heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee.



Dan 9:2
In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood [H995, biyn] by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.


Per the "Blue Letter Bible":
1 Kings 3:9 -- http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Ki&c=3&t=KJV#s=t_conc_294009
1 Kings 3:12 -- http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Ki&c=3&t=KJV#s=t_conc_294012
Daniel 9:2 -- http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Dan&c=9&t=KJV#s=t_conc_859002


With Best Regards,
DD

If you're going to be nit-picky, you'd BETTER LEARN HEBREW (and Greek)!

Hi Retrobyter,

Please allow that 1 Kings 3:12 is more completely cited as:


1Ki 3:12
Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise [H2450, chakam] and an understanding [H995, biyn] heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee.


Toward this the Blue Letter Bible agrees with the J.P. Green Jr. Interlinear, in contrast to either of your citations: "shomeea` = understanding" per verse 9; or your "vnaaVown = and-an-understanding" per verse 12.


But the question remains as to how Solomon asked for a simple (shama) understanding, and ended up with a complex understanding (chakam biyn). And toward this, I would maintain that Daniel did not simply read the 25th Chapter of Jeremiah, but rather found the fulfillment "in the books", -- which is to say the Book of Psalms.

Furthermore this finds conformance with Edward Young's observation that the Daniel 9:25 "going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of an edict from man, but rather an edict directly from GOD, which is given in the Book of Psalms.


So the question should now be, -- have you checked the Psalms for the "going forth of the word", as proposed?


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, DaDad, and Yowm Techiyyah Sameach! Happy Resurrection Day!

Hi Retrobyter,

Please allow that 1 Kings 3:12 is more completely cited as:


1Ki 3:12
Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise [H2450, chakam] and an understanding [H995, biyn] heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee.


Toward this the Blue Letter Bible agrees with the J.P. Green Jr. Interlinear, in contrast to either of your citations: "shomeea` = understanding" per verse 9; or your "vnaaVown = and-an-understanding" per verse 12.


But the question remains as to how Solomon asked for a simple (shama) understanding, and ended up with a complex understanding (chakam biyn). And toward this, I would maintain that Daniel did not simply read the 25th Chapter of Jeremiah, but rather found the fulfillment "in the books", -- which is to say the Book of Psalms.

Furthermore this finds conformance with Edward Young's observation that the Daniel 9:25 "going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of an edict from man, but rather an edict directly from GOD, which is given in the Book of Psalms.


So the question should now be, -- have you checked the Psalms for the "going forth of the word", as proposed?


With Best Regards,
DD

I guess I'm not saying this well enough, yet. The word TRANSLATED AS "understanding" in 1 Kings 3:9 is shomeea`, pronounced "show-MAY-ah." It is a variation of the root word "shama`" which means "TO HEAR!" That for which Smoh haMelekh (King Solomon) is asking is a "HEARING heart!" - a heart that LISTENS to the people's needs! - a heart that is ATTUNED to their needs!

Look, it's unfortunate that the two words "shomeea`" and "biyn" were given the same English word in translation, but that can't be helped now. It is up to US to understand that there are TWO DIFFERENT WORDS HERE and that they do NOT have the same meaning! What you (or rather, your sources) are suggesting is that Smoh asked for something lesser and God gave him something greater. I'm suggesting that they were ON THE SAME PAGE when it came to what was asked and what was granted! In essence, God DID give Smoh something greater - that is, He gave him PHENOMENAL WISDOM when all he was asking for was enough to do a good job of judging the matters for his people Isra'el. However, the difference is NOT found in the two different words; it's found in the two different CONTEXTS that merely USE those words! And, you would be able to see that for yourself IF you learned Hebrew!

For instance, you should know that the VOWELS of a Hebrew word are less important than the CONSONANTS of that word. All of the letters of the Hebrew alef-bet (alphabet) are consonants. For many of those consonants we have similar consonants and sounds: e.g., bet = B, gimmel = G (as in "goat," never as the "J" sound in "gel"), dalet = D, hei = H, vav = V, zayin = Z, kaf = K, lamed = L, mem = M, nun (pronounced "noon") = N, pei = P, rosh (pronounced similar to "roach" only with an "sh" at the end) = R, sin (pronounced "seen") = S, and tav = T.

Some of the consonants in Hebrew require combinations of our letters to make the sounds: e.g., tsadday = TS, and shin = SH. And, some of their consonants we don't have in the English language at all directly: e.g., alef = represented by an apostrophe ('), is the explosive sound at the beginning of words such as "egg" and "umbrella," and `ayin = represented by a back apostrophe (`), is the guttural "g" sound made in the back of the throat as though someone was gulping.

This is why "shomeea`" and "shama`" are basically the same word in Hebrew. The consonants are shin (sh), mem (m), and `ayin (`).
Thus, the root spelling for this word is "sh-m-`" transliterated. The vowel sounds that are only relatively recently represented by vowel pointing, reflect the part of speech and the gender and the tense of the word.

Now, as to your question, yes, I have checked the Psalms for those words ... IN HEBREW!

OT:4161 mowtsaa' (mo-tsaw'); or motsaa' (mo-tsaw'); from OT:3318; a going forth, i.e. (the act) an egress, or (the place) an exit; hence, a source or product; specifically, dawn, the rising of the sun (the East), exportation, utterance, a gate, a fountain, a mine, a meadow (as producing grass):
KJV - brought out, bud, that which came out, east, going forth, goings out, that which (thing that) is gone out, outgoing, proceeded out, spring, vein, [water-] course [springs].

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

And, through Englishman's Concordance, these are the verses that contain a form of this word:

(27 occurrences)
Numbers 30:12
12 But if her husband hath utterly made them void on the day he heard them; then whatsoever proceeded out of her lips concerning her vows, or concerning the bond of her soul, shall not stand: her husband hath made them void; and the Lord shall forgive her.
KJV
Numbers 33:2
2 And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the Lord: and these are their journeys according to their goings out.
KJV
Numbers 33:2
2 And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the Lord: and these are their journeys according to their goings out.
KJV
Deuteronomy 8:3
3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.
KJV
Deuteronomy 23:23
23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the Lord thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.
KJV
2 Samuel 3:25
25 Thou knowest Abner the son of Ner, that he came to deceive thee, and to know thy going out and thy coming in, and to know all that thou doest.
KJV
1 Kings 10:28
28 And Solomon had horses brought out of Egypt, and linen yarn: the king's merchants received the linen yarn at a price.
KJV
2 Kings 2:21
21 And he went forth unto the spring of the waters, and cast the salt in there, and said, Thus saith the Lord, I have healed these waters; there shall not be from thence any more death or barren land.
KJV
2 Chronicles 1:16
16 And Solomon had horses brought out of Egypt, and linen yarn: the king's merchants received the linen yarn at a price.
KJV
2 Chronicles 32:30
30 This same Hezekiah also stopped the upper watercourse of Gihon, and brought it straight down to the west side of the city of David. And Hezekiah prospered in all his works.
KJV
Job 28:1
28 Surely there is a vein for the silver, and a place for gold where they fine it.
KJV
Job 38:27
27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
KJV
Psalms 19:6
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
KJV
Psalms 65:8
8 They also that dwell in the uttermost parts are afraid at thy tokens: thou makest the outgoings of the morning and evening to rejoice.
KJV
Psalms 75:6
6 For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south.
KJV
Psalms 89:34
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
KJV
Psalms 107:33
33 He turneth rivers into a wilderness, and the watersprings into dry ground;
KJV
Psalms 107:35
35 He turneth the wilderness into a standing water, and dry ground into watersprings.
KJV
Isaiah 41:18
18 I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.
KJV
Isaiah 58:11
11 And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
KJV
Jeremiah 17:16
16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.
KJV
Ezekiel 12:4
4 Then shalt thou bring forth thy stuff by day in their sight, as stuff for removing: and thou shalt go forth at even in their sight, as they that go forth into captivity.
KJV
Ezekiel 42:11
11 And the way before them was like the appearance of the chambers which were toward the north, as long as they, and as broad as they: and all their goings out were both according to their fashions, and according to their doors.
KJV
Ezekiel 43:11
11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.
KJV
Ezekiel 44:5
5 And the Lord said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the Lord, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary.
KJV
Daniel 9:25
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
KJV
Hosea 6:3
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
KJV

So, the Psalms occurrences suggest years 1919, 1965, 1975, 1989, and what? 2007 twice?

The ONLY place that makes sense is Psalm 89:34:

Psalm 89:20-37
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV

So, that would be ... what? ... 1989? What was so significant about THAT year? J.R. Church's theory is ridiculous. He's trying to FORCE some sort of linkage in the same way that the stars are FORCED to have some meaning in astrology!

Psalm 89:35 (34)
35 (34) Lo’ achaleel briytiy uwmowtsaa’ sfaatay lo’ ashaneh:
JPS Hebrew/English TaNaKH

35 Lo’ = 35 No/Not
achaleel = will-I-break
briytiy = my-covenant
uwmowtsaa’ = and-the-thing-issued
sfaatay = of-my-lips
lo’ = no/not
ashaneh: = will-I-alter:

PLEASE don't rely on the English so heavily. It's okay for superficial studies, but not for in-depth study of the Scriptures.

 

[DaDad]

KJV
Daniel 9:25
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


So, the Psalms occurrences suggest years 1919, 1965, 1975, 1989, and what? 2007 twice?

Hi Retrobyter,

It appears you missed the dictate from GOD, as Young correctly assessed but was unable to identify. You might want to go back and read Psalms 24. (By the way, thanks for following along with the Psalms research. I sincerely appreciate your expression of interest.)


With Best Regards,
DD


PS If you use an English translation, you might choose one which correctly renders the seven and the sixty-two as TWO separate durations, typical of the RSV:

Daniel 9:25
Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.


Newton has already discounted your translation:

[SIZE=12pt]OBSERVATIONS ON DANIEL AND THE APOCALYPSE OF ST. JOHN[/SIZE]
by Isaac Newton
[SIZE=11pt]We avoid also the doing [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]violence[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbering used by no nation.[/SIZE]

 

[shturt678]

Hi Retrobyter,

It appears you missed the dictate from GOD, as Young correctly assessed but was unable to identify. You might want to go back and read Psalms 24. (By the way, thanks for following along with the Psalms research. I sincerely appreciate your expression of interest.)


With Best Regards,
DD


PS If you use an English translation, you might choose one which correctly renders the seven and the sixty-two as TWO separate durations, typical of the RSV:

Daniel 9:25
Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.


Newton has already discounted your translation:

[SIZE=12pt]OBSERVATIONS ON DANIEL AND THE APOCALYPSE OF ST. JOHN[/SIZE]
by Isaac Newton
[SIZE=11pt]We avoid also the doing [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]violence[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbering used by no nation.[/SIZE]

Only from another prespective, that is, always have enjoyed this area in Daniel not that I have the solution. Dan.9:25, "....7 heptads...62 heptads..." My point is that the return of captive Israel by a decree of Cyrus is an important starting point (538 B.C.). The former construed with IIChron.36:22, 23 & Ezra 1:2-4 firms up the 'starting point.'

Thank you folks for caring,

Old Jack's opinion

 

[DaDad]

... the return of captive Israel by a decree of Cyrus is an important starting point (538 B.C.).

Hi shturt678,

In John Walvoord's book "Daniel, The Key To Prophetic Revelation", Edward Young is cited per the following:

[SIZE=12pt]This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God." [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt], P. 224 [/SIZE]


And of course, the rest of the esteemed scholars have reservations regarding ANY chronology relating to ancient history:

1. Per Walvoord: "...Montgomery, for all of his scholarship and knowledge of the history of interpretation, ends up with no reasonable interpretation at all.”, P.218

2. Per Walvoord: "...as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’", P.217

3. Per Walvoord: "...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keit and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.” , P.218

4. Per Montgomery: "... efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology.", P. 217

5. Per Walvoord: "Some amillenarians, however, use a literal year time unit for the first sixty-nine weeks but an indefinite period for the last seven years, as in the case of Philip Mauro...", P. 218

6. Per Montgomery: "... the great Catholic chronographers ... as well as those of all subsequent chronographers (including the great Scalinger and Sir Isaac Newton) have failed.. And Edward Young too, finds no satisfactory conclusion for the seventy sevens ... and leaves it without a satisfactory explanation.", P. 217


Perhaps the commentators should follow the Angelic guidance:

Dan. 12:4
4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. ...
Dan. 12:9
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.



And so I would argue for a Modern interpretation for this Book of Daniel.

With Best Regards,
DD

 

[shturt678]

Hi shturt678,

In John Walvoord's book "Daniel, The Key To Prophetic Revelation", Edward Young is cited per the following:

[SIZE=12pt]This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God." [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt], P. 224 [/SIZE]


And of course, the rest of the esteemed scholars have reservations regarding ANY chronology relating to ancient history:

1. Per Walvoord: "...Montgomery, for all of his scholarship and knowledge of the history of interpretation, ends up with no reasonable interpretation at all.”, P.218

2. Per Walvoord: "...as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’", P.217

3. Per Walvoord: "...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keit and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.” , P.218

4. Per Montgomery: "... efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology.", P. 217

5. Per Walvoord: "Some amillenarians, however, use a literal year time unit for the first sixty-nine weeks but an indefinite period for the last seven years, as in the case of Philip Mauro...", P. 218

6. Per Montgomery: "... the great Catholic chronographers ... as well as those of all subsequent chronographers (including the great Scalinger and Sir Isaac Newton) have failed.. And Edward Young too, finds no satisfactory conclusion for the seventy sevens ... and leaves it without a satisfactory explanation.", P. 217


Perhaps the commentators should follow the Angelic guidance:

Dan. 12:4
4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. ...
Dan. 12:9
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.



And so I would argue for a Modern interpretation for this Book of Daniel.

With Best Regards,
DD

Thank you for your reponse

Commentators should follow angelic guidence as long as we bring <H.C. Leupold's,, K. Delitzsch's, Matthias Loy's, and etc. Commentaries> also aboard so one can see both sides of the coin, correct?

Thank you again,

Old Jack

btw am very familiar with your referenced works, and appreciate each one of them.

Due to your caring, I would like to mention that interpreting passages in Daniel going from the Hebrew & LXX forward to the English places the preponderance of evidence with Cyrus.

 

[DaDad]

Hi shturt678,

Commentators should follow angelic guidence as long as we bring <H.C. Leupold's,, K. Delitzsch's, Matthias Loy's, and etc. Commentaries> also aboard so one can see both sides of the coin, correct?

I would observe that Walvoord has already consulted the scholars for the most technical criticisms. As such the challenges to Daniel's prophecies are accurately reflected.

I would like to mention that interpreting passages in Daniel going from the Hebrew & LXX forward to the English places the preponderance of evidence with Cyrus.

If any preponderance of evidence were accurate, then certainly the seven and the sixty-two would be summed not only in Daniel 9, but in the price of the shoes on your feet, such that they might have cost $13 and $69 plus tax, -- as most translations offer that convention. Unfortunately for those who have done "violence" to Scripture (per Newton), their preponderance cannot withstand the TRUTH of Scripture and History.



And again, I would suggest that the Angelic restrictions should be obeyed.

With Best Regards,
DD

 

[shturt678]

Hi shturt678,


I would observe that Walvoord has already consulted the scholars for the most technical criticisms. As such the challenges to Daniel's prophecies are accurately reflected.




If any preponderance of evidence were accurate, then certainly the seven and the sixty-two would be summed not only in Daniel 9, but in the price of the shoes on your feet, such that they might have cost $13 and $69 plus tax, -- as most translations offer that convention. Unfortunately for those who have done "violence" to Scripture (per Newton), their preponderance cannot withstand the TRUTH of Scripture and History.



And again, I would suggest that the Angelic restrictions should be obeyed.

With Best Regards,
DD

Thank you for your response.

Although I have the highest repect for Mr. Walvoord and his view, and your view, of a future literal 1,000 year "Millennial" reign plus his "Dispensationalism," I'm a historical "Amillennialist" where we view the 1,000 as signified (Rev.1:1, "signified"), and we are nearing the end of the symbolic 1,000 years.

Thank you again,

Old Jack

 

[DaDad]

I'm a historical "Amillennialist" where we view the 1,000 as signified (Rev.1:1, "signified"), and we are nearing the end of the symbolic 1,000 years.

Hi shturt687,

I would suggest that the Scriptures should lead our doctrines, not the other way around.


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[shturt678]

Hi shturt687,

I would suggest that the Scriptures should lead our doctrines, not the other way around.


With Best Regards,
DD

Thank you for your response again!

"Scriptures"! We agree to agree!

Lk.11:21, 22, "Whenever the strong man..." - refers to Jesus of course. The tertium in the illustration is the fact that complete defeat must precede the act of plundering - God's kingdom must have come before the demoniacs could be liberated as Jesus was liberating them, correct? Jesus was pretty strong at the Cross wouldn't you say in light of Rev.12:7, etc.?

Rev.12:7, "...Michael and his angels to battle with the dragon..." Here, the effect and result of the Savior''s incarnation and His enthronement are portrayed symbolically wouldn't you agree, ie, at the Cross?

Rev.20:2, "...and bound him for a 1,000 years..." The binding of Satan personally means simply (again at the Cross) that he shall not prevent this heralding of the gospel to all the nations personally, correct? Once the nations were without this heralding, all were under the personal deception of Satan, ie, only one nation alone had the Word, correct?

Old Jack being 'led' like sheep to the slaughter.

One cannot help but agape the ol' rugged Cross, correct?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, DaDad.

Hi Retrobyter,

It appears you missed the dictate from GOD, as Young correctly assessed but was unable to identify. You might want to go back and read Psalms 24. (By the way, thanks for following along with the Psalms research. I sincerely appreciate your expression of interest.)


With Best Regards,
DD


PS If you use an English translation, you might choose one which correctly renders the seven and the sixty-two as TWO separate durations, typical of the RSV:

Daniel 9:25
Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.


Newton has already discounted your translation:

[SIZE=12pt]OBSERVATIONS ON DANIEL AND THE APOCALYPSE OF ST. JOHN[/SIZE]
by Isaac Newton
[SIZE=11pt]We avoid also the doing [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]violence[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbering used by no nation.[/SIZE]

I'm sorry, but your logic TOTALLY escapes me. What does Psalm 24 have to do with the "dictate from God" or the "going forth of His word?"

Psalm 24:1-10
1 The earth is the LORD'S and the fulness thereof,
the world and those who dwell therein;
2 for he has founded it upon the seas,
and established it upon the rivers.
3 Who shall ascend the hill of the LORD?
And who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not lift up his soul to what is false,
and does not swear deceitfully.
5 He will receive blessing from the LORD,
and vindication from the God of his salvation.
6 Such is the generation of those who seek him,
who seek the face of the God of Jacob.
Selah

7 Lift up your heads, O gates!
and be lifted up, O ancient doors!
that the King of glory may come in.
8 Who is the King of glory?
The LORD, strong and mighty,
the LORD, mighty in battle!
9 Lift up your heads, O gates!
and be lifted up, O ancient doors!
that the King of glory may come in.
10 Who is this King of glory?
The LORD of hosts,
he is the King of glory!
Selah
RSV

This hasn't happened, yet! ESPECIALLY not in 1924! Please elucidate!