Let me clarify this. I believe in "OSNAS" Scripturally, but...

[quietthinker]

Do you believe that there have been preachers who were initially devoted to God but who then took their own path away from God?

Can I presume that the answer is that none of them were ever "in Christ" in the first place?

Was Judas ever 'in Christ'? Wasn't he given the gift of miracles including that of raising the dead.

 

[Patrick1966]

Was Judas ever 'in Christ'? Wasn't he given the gift of miracles including that of raising the dead.

Good point. Did he lose his salvation?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Was Judas ever 'in Christ'? Wasn't he given the gift of miracles including that of raising the dead.

Good answer. My thought, however, is that those who are "in Christ" and who "walk away" either capitulate to the lusts and desires of the flesh or they completely leave the faith by conscious decision--they opt for another course for their life.

Obviously, many genuine Christians fall into the flesh and into sin, and perhaps even choose another course for awhile. But genuine born again Christians can never completely leave their spiritual birth behind. In the end it will drive them to repentance. That happened to me in my adolescence. I was raised in the church, and chose a more liberal course for my life, indulging in the flesh. But my conscience got the best of me, along with the testimony of Christians. I was compelled to repent or live in utter failure and shame.

There are others who have had genuine spiritual experience with God and follow Christ's laws. But they sell their spiritual birthright for a bowl of pottage. These indeed were never truly born again and Saved.

Who knows, but God, what a person's true motives are when they accept and embrace Christ as their Way? They could be doing it because it gives one a good reputation, because it seems to work, because it helps people I like, etc. etc. It may simply help a business person make sales!

The important motive to have, when embracing Christ, is to want to be like him, to have him near, to want to spend eternity in his holy presence. That isn't always the motive for people who come to Christ. They may only want to be healed, like the 9 lepers who never turned back to thank Jesus for the miracle.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Good point. Did he lose his salvation?

Judas never had Salvation. Jesus always had him pegged as a "devil." Read it. It's there.

 

[quietthinker]

Judas never had Salvation. Jesus always had him pegged as a "devil." Read it. It's there.

When we apply the parallel Paul uses in Romans 5 it is clear that all are in Christ just as all are in Adam. The deduction is now no mystery. The Good News is just that....it's news and it's good for all mankind.
If we are all in Adam by no choice of our own (and by that we die) then God has remedied the disadvantage by giving humanity a new representative in Jesus. In Christ all are made alive as Romans 8:1 so beautifully puts it after setting the stage in Romans 7......and check out what the margin says re the omission of the later half of Romans 8:1

It comes down to opting out of Christ not opting in when we apply this understanding. It shifts how we understand God seeing us (humanity)

 

[Patrick1966]

When we apply the parallel Paul uses in Romans 5 it is clear that all are in Christ just as all are in Adam. The deduction is now no mystery. The Good News is just that....it's news and it's good for all mankind.
If we are all in Adam by no choice of our own (and by that we die) then God has remedied the disadvantage by giving humanity a new representative in Jesus. In Christ all are made alive as Romans 8:1 so beautifully puts it after setting the stage in Romans 7......and check out what the margin says re the omission of the later half of Romans 8:1

It comes down to opting out of Christ not opting in when we apply this understanding. It shifts how we understand God seeing us (humanity)

Do you believe that all people will end up with God?

 

[Patrick1966]

Judas never had Salvation. Jesus always had him pegged as a "devil." Read it. It's there.

Do you believe that Judas will be boiled in lava forever?

 

[quietthinker]

Do you believe that Judas will be boiled in lava forever?

of course not

 

[thelord's_pearl]

It's kind of interesting how you put it like that. I remember as a young Christian how I was drawn to the verse in 1 John that said, "no one born of God practices sin." It was not saying so much that "Christians never sin," but that "Christians by nature do not want to sin--they have the Holy Spirit residing in them and a new nature that wants to be led by Him."

That verse showed me how I had been changed, how instead of just "following the Golden Rule," or " following the 10 Commandments," I had a new nature that was entranced by God Himself, making me want to serve Him as far as I could go!

If we get to this point, hopefully it is more than just "blind ambition." Hopefully it is not just to get a star on a sidewalk or a place on the stage. Hopefully it isn't just to say "I know someone important." Hopefully, it is that we are drawn, by a new nature, to want to be like someone who is pure.

Thanks. I like how you put it. Sounds exactly right! No one "born" of God 'practises' sin, not that we never sin as there is the sanctification process/unintentional sins but that Christians by nature do not want to sin, they have the Holy Spirit residing in them and therefore a new nature that wants to please Him, like you said. For me, it's that I have a new nature that wants to please God firstly. Wanting to feel important is secondary after that, not the primary.

 

[Patrick1966]

of course not

I was asking the other poster.

 

[quietthinker]

Do you believe that all people will end up with God?

No. Many will choose against the principles of God's government (compassion, mercy, long suffering, kindness, self sacrifice etc).....They will choose to seperate themselves from God....they will willingly die......just as Judas made his choice (s)

 

[ButterflyJones]

"Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers’" (Matthew 7:21-23).

Matthew 25:35-46 New American Standard Bible​

For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
-----
And there are more verses including The Parable of the Ten Virgins and about who are the sons or children of God. I can give you the link to the thread where I copied and pasted a lot of scriptures if you'd like.

No need.

Salvation is eternal. God's irrevocable gift through grace.

 

[Gottservant]

..I also believe in, once "born again", always Saved. Sounds confusing doesn't it? It's the conclusion I've come up to but I'm still confused. Any thoughts on clearing up this confusion? Let's discuss. Thanks.

I think its like remodelling your car, you might even think "I wish I had the old model again" but there is just no way you will go back to an old model.

What you need is a second wind, a new appreciation of the new model. That means relying on God.

 

[quietthinker]

"Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers’" (Matthew 7:21-23).

The ones to who Jesus said 'I never knew you' want a kingdom which aligns with the devils values ie, a kingdom where force is used.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Was Judas ever 'in Christ'? Wasn't he given the gift of miracles including that of raising the dead.

Yes, he was.
Satan entered Judas by God's will so he could, as Jesus knew and said, do what he must do.
Which was, betray Jesus so that he could accomplish the mission for which he was born; die, give his blood for the new covenant, and take upon himself on the cross, the last altar for remission of the sins of the world.

Judas did not betray Christ. Satan did.

Jesus knew this. And Judas was forgiven for he knew not what he did, by Christ from the cross. As was everyone responsible for putting him there.

Jesus' death was God's plan.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, he was.
Satan entered Judas by God's will so he could, as Jesus knew and said, do what he must do.
Which was, betray Jesus so that he could accomplish the mission for which he was born; die, give his blood for the new covenant, and take upon himself on the cross, the last altar for remission of the sins of the world.

Judas did not betray Christ. Satan did.

Jesus knew this. And Judas was forgiven for he knew not what he did, by Christ from the cross. As was everyone responsible for putting him there.

Jesus' death was God's plan.

This is a muddled view BJ. It was never God's will to have Satan enter anybody let alone a disciple. Jesus cast demons out, he didn't invite them in neither was it his will to invite them in. Jesus did God's will and his will was for healing, for reconciliation for hope. It was never God's will to have Satan enter Judas. That was Judas' choice prompted by Satan.

 

[ButterflyJones]

This is a muddled view BJ. It was never God's will to have Satan enter anybody let alone a disciple. Jesus cast demons out, he didn't invite them in neither was it his will to invite them in. Jesus did God's will and his will was for healing, for reconciliation for hope. It was never God's will to have Satan enter Judas. That was Judas' choice prompted by Satan.

Believe as you wish.

 

[quietthinker]

Believe as you wish.

Jesus came to speak well of God. Imagine a God who manipulates to have his own son betrayed. That is the design of a devil not a God who gives his life for humanity.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Jesus came to speak well of God. Imagine a God who manipulates to have his own son betrayed. That is the design of a devil not a God who gives his life for humanity.

Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

How else would Jesus have died for the world's sins?
He told Satan/Judas, do what you must do.

And your observation tells me you forgot about Job.
God allowed Satan to destroy Job's life. The only limit was Satan could not kill Job.
However Satan was allowed to kill Job's entire family just so God could win a bet with the Devil. The Devil who was allowed to reenter Heaven and confer with God.

 

[quietthinker]

We killed him because we couldn’t stand his purity which God sent him to show us.

Do you really think God does deals with the devil?
Imagine a parent doing a convoluted deal to have his child hurt or killed?

We need to rethink these stories….and there is plenty of evidence to say that penal substitution and the various rationale surrounding it is faulty.

Do you understand the term ‘penal substitution?’