Let me clarify this. I believe in "OSNAS" Scripturally, but...

[Randy Kluth]

Hebrews 10:26 NLT​

Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies.

If we have a key to get in the door, but choose to throw that key out into the bay, we've lost all opportunity to get in the door! This passage is saying the same thing, that if we reject the very source of our atonement there no longer remains any means of being atoned.

When Christ came to Israel he became their final means of atonement. All animal sacrifices prior to that had been preliminary and temporary until he came to complete redemption.

But when Israel turned away from Christ as their atonement, and turned back to animal sacrifices, there no longer remained any means of atonement at all, whether temporary or final.

Christ became the exclusive source of atonement when he died on the cross and the veil was rent. The Law was no longer even a temporary source of atonement. He was the exclusive source of atonement.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Yes, just reading what I have to say on a matter doesn't mean you agree with it! We're reading the same Bible, and taking from it what seems most likely to us. I'm not at all meaning to say people who are Lost don't have bodies--they certainly do, since the Lost also are "raised from the dead."

What I'm saying is that God doesn't torment people by physically afflicting them with torture devices like sadistic people do. Their suffering is the result of their own choice to separate from God.

but it says "eternal fire" so I think if you're in fire then it's some kind of disease of inflammation and pain, not talking about devices but just like when God brought on plagues on people in the OT, diseases and gave them a chance to repent and said if they turn from their ways and repent then He will heal them, only there's no more chance to repent once you're in hell. Okay so you agree that "weeping and knashing of teeth" means they're still in the flesh in hell? like if you're weeping, you're crying from your eyes and if you have teeth that didn't decay then you're still in the bodily flesh? Thanks anyway.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Anyway, that's what I think but I don't really know or exactly know what will happen in hell but according to the bible, the Word of God, it is real, very real just like heaven is real. Even I'm scared to quote the scriptures! Terrified! I'm scared I don't make it even when everything or almost everything tells me I will get to heaven. I believe there's a reason though when they describe hell as a place of "eternal fire", why fire? And also when it says there will be weeping (crying fom the eyes), that sounds like they're in the flesh and knashing of teeth is the movement of the jaw to make that knashing sound and having teeth that didn't decay sounds like they're in the flesh so it sounds like it's a conscious (weeping/crying), physical and eternal torment in the flesh, not a spiritual torment, even though it's a spiritual punishment. I'll leave it at that. It seems like I'm done. Thanks for the discussion. I'll still read if you have anything else to say opposing this viewpoint of mine.

 

[ButterflyJones]

I think the various views are a little overlapping, which makes it a little difficult for me. In sum....

Ransom Theory--Payment. Mankind's capitulation to the Devil required redemption. The payment was Christ's suffering of mankind's sins, as well as Christ offering himself as such. This "paid for" those who wronged God simply by experiencing their sins and forgiving them.

I'm not sure this ever meant that God had to pay the Devil off--just that to be, in a sense, consistent with how He treats the Devil , Mankind must be given an alternate route to a Law that had already been broken. The Devil seeks no other route for his own or Mankind's Salvation, and has no power to grant access to Mankind upon payment from God!

Satisfaction Theory--Substitute Righteousness. Mankind's failures were corrected by Christ's righteousness, which Christians now have access to as an acceptable form of repentance.

In reality, these are both sides of the same coin. To be righteous, mankind must be given access to a new legal form of righteousness after they have been cut off from the kind of righteousness that leads to Eternal Life.

For this to happen, Christ had to live in righteousness, and suffer mankind's sins, in order to give access to this righteousness to those who wish to repent. That is, Christ had to bring an alternate route to a route that the Devil could not be successful in.

Just my thoughts...

There are overlapping teachings that can mean to communicate essentially the same message.

However, when the foundation of the Gospel and Salvation are denied as valid, there is a very serious issue that intends to undermine the righteousness of God.

Penal Substitution is one such issue.
Just as TDS is a very real mental disorder in American politics, so too is CDS, Calvinism Derangement Syndrome.

Most who intend to denigrate our faith by attributing tenets to John Calvin have actually no idea of what they're referring to. They have never read any of JC's writings. Rather, they attend to jumping on the CDS bandwagon thinking their effort will inject conflict into a thread. As they intend.

The Gospel is actually very simple to understand if one shuts out the naysayers, and the posing unbelievers who intend to muddy the waters of life.

You will never lose your salvation. Nor shall God strip it from you.

This is a Biblical fact. Because if you can do something to make God change his plan of saving you, whom he knew before the foundation of the world, that would make your behavior post Salvation able to overcome God's foreknowledge and plans for you.
Which would then eradicate God's powers as God.

It would also entail God detailing how all that occurs when you are redeemed in Christ and are Saved by his blood as then being repealed and reversed, so as to return you back to your former fallen dead in sin state.
No such verses exist.

People who are not actually in God's grace are not an example of salvation being lost. They are an example they were nominal, name only, Christians. Which is why they retain their predisposition to acting out in their fallen nature when opportunity presents.

Jim Jones, and other evil men are not proof Salvation can be lost. Rather they are proof they were never in God's grace. Think on what Jones did. Were he to be a Christian it would mean indwelling Holy Spirit God led him to act.

He didn't.

 

[Randy Kluth]

but it says "eternal fire" so I think if you're in fire then it's some kind of disease of inflammation and pain, not talking about devices but just like when God brought on plagues on people in the OT, diseases and gave them a chance to repent and said if they turn from their ways and repent then He will heal them, only there's no more chance to repent once you're in hell. Okay so you agree that "weeping and knashing of teeth" means they're still in the flesh in hell? like if you're weeping, you're crying from your eyes and if you have teeth that didn't decay then you're still in the bodily flesh? Thanks anyway.

No, I told you I believe "Hell" is thrown into the Lake of Fire, which means Death itself goes away. So everybody who has ever lived will live in new bodies, some in Outer Darkness and some in the Light of the Holy City. God will not torture people with disease and death again. They will be tormented in their minds and sense the dissatisfaction of living a life independent of God's path for the just.

Yes, I believe people will weep and gnash their teeth. But no, I don't believe their bodies will be on fire. Believe what you think Scripture teaches. I will believe what I believe God is like.

 

[ButterflyJones]

No, I told you I believe "Hell" is thrown into the Lake of Fire, which means Death itself goes away. So everybody who has ever lived will live in new bodies, some in Outer Darkness and some in the Light of the Holy City. God will not torture people with disease and death again. They will be tormented in their minds and sense the dissatisfaction of living a life independent of God's path for the just.

Yes, I believe people will weep and gnash their teeth. But no, I don't believe their bodies will be on fire. Believe what you think Scripture teaches. I will believe what I believe God is like.

You might find this interesting.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You might find this interesting.

Pure Christian Liberalism. The priest/minister doesn't know God. At his own admission, "God is a mystery." We don't get rescued from sinfulness, according to him. Rather, we become "more fully human," whatever that means?

For someone who claims God isn't any of these religions, he sure dictates what he believes God is! So who made him God's prophet, to explain to us mere mortals, immature at that, what we need to believe about God? In reality, true Christianity gives us a direct, mystical path to God such that we can trust His words to our heart, along with the words He has directed to be written in the Scriptures.

My belief about the Lake of Fire is based squarely on my understanding of Scriptures, and upon my experience of God. It is not dogmatic claims about who God is "as a Mystery!"

 

[quietthinker]

You might find this interesting.

is this your position BJ?

 

[mailmandan]

If we have a key to get in the door, but choose to throw that key out into the bay, we've lost all opportunity to get in the door! This passage is saying the same thing, that if we reject the very source of our atonement there no longer remains any means of being atoned.

When Christ came to Israel he became their final means of atonement. All animal sacrifices prior to that had been preliminary and temporary until he came to complete redemption.

But when Israel turned away from Christ as their atonement, and turned back to animal sacrifices, there no longer remained any means of atonement at all, whether temporary or final.

Christ became the exclusive source of atonement when he died on the cross and the veil was rent. The Law was no longer even a temporary source of atonement. He was the exclusive source of atonement.

In Hebrews 10:26, the term "sin willfully" carries the idea of deliberate intention which is habitual and stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows willful, continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)

Hebrews 10:26 - For if we go on willfully and deliberately sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice [to atone] for our sins [that is, no further offering to anticipate] (AMP)

 

[Randy Kluth]

In Hebrews 10:26, the term "sin willfully" carries the idea of deliberate intention which is habitual and stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows willful, continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)

Hebrews 10:26 - For if we go on willfully and deliberately sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice [to atone] for our sins [that is, no further offering to anticipate] (AMP)

I agree. Rejecting Christ as our atonement is a conscious turning away from him as God. It is a conscious, deliberate choice to go the way we want to go, instead of live in cooperation with him who we must abide in. It is a choice to indulge our carnal interests--something the Bible calls "sin" or "wickedness."

 

[thelord's_pearl]

No, I told you I believe "Hell" is thrown into the Lake of Fire, which means Death itself goes away. So everybody who has ever lived will live in new bodies, some in Outer Darkness and some in the Light of the Holy City. God will not torture people with disease and death again. They will be tormented in their minds and sense the dissatisfaction of living a life independent of God's path for the just.

Yes, I believe people will weep and gnash their teeth. But no, I don't believe their bodies will be on fire. Believe what you think Scripture teaches. I will believe what I believe God is like.

Since we know that Jesus conquers sin and death once and for all, are we to think that death still exists but it's under His feet (in outer darkness) or that death no longer exists in the future? I think, rather, for there to still be "outer darkness" and fire (why is it described as fire by the way?), doesn't that automatically mean the former, not the latter? though it could be true that it is only the mind that is thirsting 'cause it is meaningless and there is no blessing without God. I still do believe though that there is *much* suffering in Hell. Just sharing my thoughts. I am willing to change my mind/belief if it absolutely made sense to me. What's your belief now? I'll hear your thoughts and sorry if I'm just not getting it? Thanks.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Though it also can be said that death no longer exists, just people "living" in out darkness and those "living" in the light in heaven (not to say that they don't have day and night in heaven but speaking of spiritual light), so then it could be possible that only their minds will be thirsting and suffering in Hell.

 

[MatthewG]

Since we know that Jesus conquers sin and death once and for all, are we to think that death still exists but it's under His feet (in outer darkness) or that death no longer exists in the future? I think, rather, for there to still be "outer darkness" and fire (why is it described as fire by the way?), doesn't that automatically mean the former, not the latter? though it could be true that it is only the mind that is thirsting 'cause it is meaningless and there is no blessing without God. I still do believe though that there is *much* suffering in Hell. Just sharing my thoughts. I am willing to change my mind/belief if it absolutely made sense to me. What's your belief now? I'll hear your thoughts and sorry if I'm just not getting it? Thanks.

Hi @thelord's_pearl ,

After writing to you, i never did see any posts for a little while. Its good to see you are and are having some great critcial thinking skills, not trying to jump in the conversation, just wanted to say keep going and may you be encouraged.

All the best in Faith, may God guide you to what is true by the spirit,
Matthew

 

[quietthinker]

Since we know that Jesus conquers sin and death once and for all, are we to think that death still exists but it's under His feet (in outer darkness) or that death no longer exists in the future? I think, rather, for there to still be "outer darkness" and fire (why is it described as fire by the way?), doesn't that automatically mean the former, not the latter? though it could be true that it is only the mind that is thirsting 'cause it is meaningless and there is no blessing without God. I still do believe though that there is *much* suffering in Hell. Just sharing my thoughts. I am willing to change my mind/belief if it absolutely made sense to me. What's your belief now? I'll hear your thoughts and sorry if I'm just not getting it? Thanks.

God's glory is his fire. It consumes wickedness. God was glorified in Jesus and Jesus was glorified in giving his life. This is his glory/fire
Consider Moses coming off the mountain with his face shining.....the people freaked out, they couldn't handle even a faint reflection which rubbed off on Moses while being in God's presence though concealed.

When Jesus returns in the clouds his glory will freak the wicked out. Is that because Jesus is vindictive? No, it's because it exposes them to themselves and they can't bear it. They would rather the rocks and mountains fall on them than be in the presence of a spotless Lamb.

Righteousness and purity is hell for those who oppose it. This is the fire of God!

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Understanding the terms used in the overall picture of events, terms like, 'eternal punishment', and where 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' fit, is helpful.
Not understanding it and lumping it into one indiscriminate 'puddle' confuses everything.

It is the character God which is in question. Misunderstand it and everything becomes bent out of shape. Whatever one understands about the character of God becomes the springboard and under pining factor for the various views.

What's your view then, in contrast to mine or what I've said or thought/believe? Thanks. If you believe differently, why didn't you tell me after saying here that it is helpful and you disagree? Thanks.

 

[quietthinker]

What's your view then, in contrast to mine or what I've said or thought/believe? Thanks. If you believe differently, why didn't you tell me after saying here that it is helpful and you disagree? Thanks.

Our awareness of what God's glory/ his kingdom is, grows if our hearts are desirous of it. It is not static.
Believing is synonymous with trusting. Faith is not a collection of ideas that one cognitively subscribes to, it is trusting in the knowledge (visceral) that we have a Saviour who is able to do more than we can ask, think or imagine. This is his Glory

 

[quietthinker]

Our awareness of what God's glory/ his kingdom is, grows if our hearts are desirous of it. It is not static.
Believing is synonymous with trusting. Faith is not a collection of ideas that one cognitively subscribes to, it is trusting in the knowledge (visceral) that we have a Saviour who is able to do more than we can ask, think or imagine. This is his Glory

edit...dear tl_p.....I've been trying to tell you as long as I've known you but you just haven't heard.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

..I also believe in, once "born again", always Saved. Sounds confusing doesn't it? It's the conclusion I've come up to but I'm still confused. Any thoughts on clearing up this confusion?

Precious friend, I was in Confusion for some time - just stayed 'solid as a rock' In
His Word Of Truth - Please be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified, Because Of:

God's ALL-Sufficient BLOOD! He Has All Of This For His Precious children:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST
+ Update
+
God's Eternal Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Amen.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Since we know that Jesus conquers sin and death once and for all, are we to think that death still exists but it's under His feet (in outer darkness) or that death no longer exists in the future? I think, rather, for there to still be "outer darkness" and fire (why is it described as fire by the way?), doesn't that automatically mean the former, not the latter? though it could be true that it is only the mind that is thirsting 'cause it is meaningless and there is no blessing without God. I still do believe though that there is *much* suffering in Hell. Just sharing my thoughts. I am willing to change my mind/belief if it absolutely made sense to me. What's your belief now? I'll hear your thoughts and sorry if I'm just not getting it? Thanks.

You're not getting very clear thoughts from me because I'm clear on some things but not on other things. As I said, I don't believe God has given us much information on the eternal future of the ungodly precisely because it extends beyond our own personal business and is unpleasant. Those who make such choices should have to meditate on it.

From my experience of God's love, and from reading God's laws of compassion in the Bible I'm pretty sure that God will not "torture" people for all eternity. I use that word "torture" very carefully because it implies there is a sadistic interest in seeing others suffer.
But God is not like that, I'm sure.

But that doesn't mean that justice cannot impose a measure of unhappiness, implied in the words "stripes," and gnashing of teeth, and weeping. "Stripes" suggest an initial whipping, preceding a final sentencing. Gnashing of teeth suggests unhappiness about a hopeless condition. Weeping implies resignation in the fact of irretrievable loss. None of these things implies "torture."

"Eternal Death" suggests "death" continues to exist, but it is unlike the kind we now have in our physical bodies, which will be undone at the resurrection. Eternal Death suggests the same thing that the Lake of Fire suggests, that people will be permanently removed--not that they will be burning forever. The fire removes them one time. The fact they get thrown in there forever suggests they are removed forever--not that they are imprisoned there.

When I throw trash into a bonfire, it's burned up instantly. It doesn't just burn and burn and burn for an eternity. It is gone forever, but it doesn't burn forever.

That's what I believe about Eternal Death and the Lake of Fire. People are thrown in there and they are burned up immediately. They are thrown in forever because they are "burned up" and removed, and cannot come back.

But it is not an actual furnace where they must remain forever. They remain forever in a "burned up state," but they don't keep burning forever. They are forever cast out into Outer Darkness, which doesn't suggest they are still burning, as in being tortured.

This may be as clear as mud, but I'm not claiming to be sure about all of it--only that God is not sadistic. I believe He has a place for all of the Lost. Maybe they will work on a planet like this one in unhappy conditions--that would be "Hell" to me! But we will be in a place where we will be happy forever. It isn't our business to go too deep into such sadness.

 

[ButterflyJones]

The ones to who Jesus said 'I never knew you' want a kingdom which aligns with the devils values ie, a kingdom where force is used.

Must be of Satan because no such thing exists in our faith. And no Christian would want that.