Let me clarify this. I believe in "OSNAS" Scripturally, but...

[ButterflyJones]

We killed him because we couldn’t stand his purity which God sent him to show us.

Do you really think God does deals with the devil?
Imagine a parent doing a convoluted deal to have his child hurt or killed?

We need to rethink these stories….and there is plenty of evidence to say that penal substitution and the various rationale surrounding it is faulty.

Do you understand the term ‘penal substitution?’

Do you? I don't believe you do. Else you wouldn't call it faulty rationale.

 

[quietthinker]

Do you? I don't believe you do. Else you wouldn't call it faulty rationale.

Yes, I understand it. It was birthed by Luther and Calvin who both studied law. Penal substitution was not held by the early Church.
Penal substitution says that God requires blood ie, death before he can forgive yet God forgave Adam and Eve which is evidenced in that he went looking for them. He didn't hide from them, didn't ask them for anything, they hide from him. God supplied new clothing because what they supposed would be adequate (their own works) wasn't. Thinking further along the line, the clothing that God supplied was forgiveness......just as the saints are clothed in fine linen white and clean...as we read in Revelation
Jesus forgave without requiring sacrifice and he forgave without being asked. I think that tells us something about God wouldn't you say?

 

[Rockerduck]

Yes, I understand it. It was birthed by Luther and Calvin who both studied law. Penal substitution was not held by the early Church.
Penal substitution says that God requires blood ie, death before he can forgive yet God forgave Adam and Eve which is evidenced in that he went looking for them. He didn't hide from them, didn't ask them for anything, they hide from him. God supplied new clothing because what they supposed would be adequate (their own works) wasn't. Thinking further along the line, the clothing that God supplied was forgiveness......just as the saints are clothed in fine linen white and clean...as we read in Revelation
Jesus forgave without requiring sacrifice and he forgave without being asked. I think that tells us something about God wouldn't you say?

God showed Adam how to sacrifice an animal for forgiveness and used the skin for clothing. Adam taught Abel and Cain about the alter and sacrifice. Even Noah built an altar and sacrificed after the flood. It was something passed down from Adam.

 

[quietthinker]

God showed Adam how to sacrifice an animal for forgiveness and used the skin for clothing. Adam taught Abel and Cain about the alter and sacrifice. Even Noah built an altar and sacrificed after the flood. It was something passed down from Adam.

I think the common view you have stated of Adam, Cain and Able are assumptions Rockerduck. By Noah's time, sacrifice was a cultural practice by the natives. Do you know of any details given by God re this practice prior to Noah's time?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Do you believe that Judas will be boiled in lava forever?

No, I have a much milder view of "Hell" than many other Christians, though I certainly believe in Eternal Punishment for the wicked.

1st let me say that "eternal punishment" means just that. It does not mean, for me, boiling in lava forever. It just means that whatever punishment is meted out will last forever.

So what is the "punishment?" We call it 'Hell" but Hades is actually cast into the Lake of Fire.

So we call it the Lake of Fire. Does that mean Eternal Punishment is the equivalent of being in this Lake of Fire forever?

I don't believe so. To be sent into the Lake of Fire forever simply means to be disposed of forever, not in the sense of annihilation but only in the sense of removal from the New Earth.

Gehenna was a bonfire of trash. It kept burning only because there was always trash to be burned. But being put there forever simply means that the trash was being forever disposed of--not that a person would be burning there alive forever and ever!

So it really is a problem over terminology. To be cast into the Lake of Fire forever is really saying that people are being forever removed from the planet physically and bodily. No part of them will be allowed to stay. They will be removed "forever."

But where the Lost go *after* they are sent into the Lake of Fire is not really described much. The wealthy man who had abused Lazarus simply existed on the other side of a big chasm. He was thirsty, he was tormented by his eternal station, but he was not "on fire."

Jesus depicted the lot of the Lost as "Outer Darkness," which for me simply conveys the idea of being separated from God's People and from God's presence itself. Torture is never the idea. The entire Bible indicates that God hates evil. Separating ungodly people from the godly is reasonable. Torturing them forever is not.

 

[Patrick1966]

No, I have a much milder view of "Hell" than many other Christians, though I certainly believe in Eternal Punishment for the wicked.

1st let me say that "eternal punishment" means just that. It does not mean, for me, boiling in lava forever. It just means that whatever punishment is meted out will last forever.

So what is the "punishment?" We call it 'Hell" but Hades is actually cast into the Lake of Fire.

So we call it the Lake of Fire. Does that mean Eternal Punishment is the equivalent of being in this Lake of Fire forever?

I don't believe so. To be sent into the Lake of Fire forever simply means to be disposed of forever, not in the sense of annihilation but only in the sense of removal from the New Earth.

Gehenna was a bonfire of trash. It kept burning only because there was always trash to be burned. But being put there forever simply means that the trash was being forever disposed of--not that a person would be burning there alive forever and ever!

So it really is a problem over terminology. To be cast into the Lake of Fire forever is really saying that people are being forever removed from the planet physically and bodily. No part of them will be allowed to stay. They will be removed "forever."

But where the Lost go *after* they are sent into the Lake of Fire is not really described much. The wealthy man who had abused Lazarus simply existed on the other side of a big chasm. He was thirsty, he was tormented by his eternal station, but he was not "on fire."

Jesus depicted the lot of the Lost as "Outer Darkness," which for me simply conveys the idea of being separated from God's People and from God's presence itself. Torture is never the idea. The entire Bible indicates that God hates evil. Separating ungodly people from the godly is reasonable. Torturing them forever is not.

Thank you for sharing your view.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Yes, I understand it. It was birthed by Luther and Calvin who both studied law. Penal substitution was not held by the early Church.
Penal substitution says that God requires blood ie, death before he can forgive yet God forgave Adam and Eve which is evidenced in that he went looking for them. He didn't hide from them, didn't ask them for anything, they hide from him. God supplied new clothing because what they supposed would be adequate (their own works) wasn't. Thinking further along the line, the clothing that God supplied was forgiveness......just as the saints are clothed in fine linen white and clean...as we read in Revelation
Jesus forgave without requiring sacrifice and he forgave without being asked. I think that tells us something about God wouldn't you say?

It tells me you don't know what penal substitution is.

You should study the New testament and Christian doctrine.

As it stands you demonstrate lack of understanding of both topics. As well as lack of knowledge regarding the OT and sin sacrifices.

This might help you to engage with Christians from a platform of understanding.

 

[quietthinker]

It tells me you don't know what penal substitution is.

You should study the New testament and Christian doctrine.

As it stands you demonstrate lack of understanding of both topics. As well as lack of knowledge regarding the OT and sin sacrifices.

This might help you to engage with Christians from a platform of understanding.

Your foolish statements here as well as on other matters elsewhere, are unfortunate!

 

[thelord's_pearl]

No, I have a much milder view of "Hell" than many other Christians, though I certainly believe in Eternal Punishment for the wicked.

1st let me say that "eternal punishment" means just that. It does not mean, for me, boiling in lava forever. It just means that whatever punishment is meted out will last forever.

So what is the "punishment?" We call it 'Hell" but Hades is actually cast into the Lake of Fire.

So we call it the Lake of Fire. Does that mean Eternal Punishment is the equivalent of being in this Lake of Fire forever?

I don't believe so. To be sent into the Lake of Fire forever simply means to be disposed of forever, not in the sense of annihilation but only in the sense of removal from the New Earth.

Gehenna was a bonfire of trash. It kept burning only because there was always trash to be burned. But being put there forever simply means that the trash was being forever disposed of--not that a person would be burning there alive forever and ever!

So it really is a problem over terminology. To be cast into the Lake of Fire forever is really saying that people are being forever removed from the planet physically and bodily. No part of them will be allowed to stay. They will be removed "forever."

But where the Lost go *after* they are sent into the Lake of Fire is not really described much. The wealthy man who had abused Lazarus simply existed on the other side of a big chasm. He was thirsty, he was tormented by his eternal station, but he was not "on fire."

Jesus depicted the lot of the Lost as "Outer Darkness," which for me simply conveys the idea of being separated from God's People and from God's presence itself. Torture is never the idea. The entire Bible indicates that God hates evil. Separating ungodly people from the godly is reasonable. Torturing them forever is not.

the bible talks about a place called hell and an eternal one for the wicked/unrighteous, including believers and how there will be weeping and knashing of teeth so it sounds like a conscious torment like perhaps there will be diseases in hell relating to inflammation and pain like fire.
I don't want to upset anyone though by saying this but just speaking the truth
if we ignore any part of the bible, it won't benefit us when we will eventually see the opposite truth anyway.
Anyway, I also at times have wondered, what if I do this or that and then I feel a big No from God and I absolutely cannot do it and the Holy Spirit tells me the truth so, so far, I do believe in, once born again, always Saved.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Good answer. My thought, however, is that those who are "in Christ" and who "walk away" either capitulate to the lusts and desires of the flesh or they completely leave the faith by conscious decision--they opt for another course for their life.

Obviously, many genuine Christians fall into the flesh and into sin, and perhaps even choose another course for awhile. But genuine born again Christians can never completely leave their spiritual birth behind. In the end it will drive them to repentance. That happened to me in my adolescence. I was raised in the church, and chose a more liberal course for my life, indulging in the flesh. But my conscience got the best of me, along with the testimony of Christians. I was compelled to repent or live in utter failure and shame.

There are others who have had genuine spiritual experience with God and follow Christ's laws. But they sell their spiritual birthright for a bowl of pottage. These indeed were never truly born again and Saved.

Who knows, but God, what a person's true motives are when they accept and embrace Christ as their Way? They could be doing it because it gives one a good reputation, because it seems to work, because it helps people I like, etc. etc. It may simply help a business person make sales!

The important motive to have, when embracing Christ, is to want to be like him, to have him near, to want to spend eternity in his holy presence. That isn't always the motive for people who come to Christ. They may only want to be healed, like the 9 lepers who never turned back to thank Jesus for the miracle.

So I think you were "born again" from the time you felt you needed to repent or else you'll live in utter failure and shame as there was sanctification and because of that, you feel you cannot willfully/intentionally sin anymore, right?
When I was an agnostic, I wanted to go to church and went to church because I wanted to know if there was a God and what help the religion could offer me for healing even if there wasn't a God. I also wondered if Jesus was real. After I believed in God and Jesus, I had a desire to follow all of His goodness and please God and wanted to be healed and get to heaven and to feel important.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your foolish statements here as well as on other matters elsewhere, are unfortunate!

I think the various views are a little overlapping, which makes it a little difficult for me. In sum....

Ransom Theory--Payment. Mankind's capitulation to the Devil required redemption. The payment was Christ's suffering of mankind's sins, as well as Christ offering himself as such. This "paid for" those who wronged God simply by experiencing their sins and forgiving them.

I'm not sure this ever meant that God had to pay the Devil off--just that to be, in a sense, consistent with how He treats the Devil , Mankind must be given an alternate route to a Law that had already been broken. The Devil seeks no other route for his own or Mankind's Salvation, and has no power to grant access to Mankind upon payment from God!

Satisfaction Theory--Substitute Righteousness. Mankind's failures were corrected by Christ's righteousness, which Christians now have access to as an acceptable form of repentance.

In reality, these are both sides of the same coin. To be righteous, mankind must be given access to a new legal form of righteousness after they have been cut off from the kind of righteousness that leads to Eternal Life.

For this to happen, Christ had to live in righteousness, and suffer mankind's sins, in order to give access to this righteousness to those who wish to repent. That is, Christ had to bring an alternate route to a route that the Devil could not be successful in.

Just my thoughts...

 

[Randy Kluth]

the bible talks about a place called hell and an eternal one for the wicked/unrighteous, including believers and how there will be weeping and knashing of teeth so it sounds like a conscious torment like perhaps there will be diseases in hell relating to inflammation and pain like fire.
I don't want to upset anyone though by saying this but just speaking the truth
if we ignore any part of the bible, it won't benefit us when we will eventually see the opposite truth anyway.
Anyway, I also at times have wondered, what if I do this or that and then I feel a big No from God and I absolutely cannot do it and the Holy Spirit tells me the truth so, so far, I do believe in, once born again, always Saved.

I think God will finish the operation when the current ages of sin and death are over. The state of the Lost is not something God wants us to focus on so much, because it is of no concern to us, long term. People reap what they sow. Nobody will be taken where they don't choose to go.

There are many who actually hate God and fight for their own independence from Him and His laws. Let them go. No fear of Hell will dissuade them.

But I believe God will not stop being kind in Eternity, whether He deals with His People or the Lost. People positioned in Outer Darkness will certainly be tormented when separated from the blessings of God's close presence. But that is a far cry from God torturing them or burning them alive hour after hour for all eternity. Nobody could be so cruel, and certainly not God who has asked us all to be merciful compassionate and kind.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

I think God will finish the operation when the current ages of sin and death are over. The state of the Lost is not something God wants us to focus on so much, because it is of no concern to us, long term. People reap what they sow. Nobody will be taken where they don't choose to go.

There are many who actually hate God and fight for their own independence from Him and His laws. Let them go. No fear of Hell will dissuade them.

But I believe God will not stop being kind in Eternity, whether He deals with His People or the Lost. People positioned in Outer Darkness will certainly be tormented when separated from the blessings of God's close presence. But that is a far cry from God torturing them or burning them alive hour after hour for all eternity. Nobody could be so cruel, and certainly not God who has asked us all to be merciful compassionate and kind.

Well I know in Matthew 25:35-46 NASB at least what I read there, there will be eternal punishment into an eternal fire for the unrighteous and it also says in the bible, there will be weeping and knashing of teeth there so it's a conscious torment, eternity in hell. Anyway, if you don't agree, we can just agree to disagree. Thanks.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So I think you were "born again" from the time you felt you needed to repent or else you'll live in utter failure and shame as there was sanctification and because of that, you feel you cannot willfully/intentionally sin anymore, right?
When I was an agnostic, I wanted to go to church and went to church because I wanted to know if there was a God and what help the religion could offer me for healing even if there wasn't a God. I also wondered if Jesus was real. After I believed in God and Jesus, I had a desire to follow all of His goodness and please God and wanted to be healed and get to heaven and to feel important.

Nice testimony! Rings true.

As for me, I was raised in a sort of a dead spiritual church environment, but still believed in God and knew Him to some degree. I just didn't know Him "fully," like Apollos in the book of Acts. I preached Christ but didn't fully know him.

When I did get to the place where I had had enough of my sins and guilt, and turned my life completely back to God, I read in the book of Acts where it was said that "God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him," and I was instantly filled with the Spirit. I've never wanted to turn back since, though there have been some very rough patches where I learned God doesn't always answer your prayer requests.

What causes unbelief is when we don't get what we want, or God says, "No." That's when we doubt Him, because we are choosing not to live by His Word. And when we do that we gradually lose the sense of His presence.

But when we make the tough choices and continue to follow God, even in the "rough patches," a spirit of glory rests on us. We may not get that right away, but I believe it will come. God rewards those who obey Him, particularly when it crosses our will.

I don't believe God takes delight in testing us in this way. But it is part of our worldly existence that we must go through.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well I know in Matthew 25:35-46 NASB at least what I read there, there will be eternal punishment so you might be right, God might be merciful and compassionate then but it doesn't mean there wouldn't be punishment and where it also says in the bible, there will be weeping and knashing of teeth there so it's a conscious torment, eternity in hell. Anyway, if you don't agree, we can just agree to disagree. Thanks.

Again, Hades, or "Hell," is thrown into the Lake of Fire, so it perishes for all eternity. But since human souls do not die, they are thrown into the Lake of Fire to be disposed of *on this earth,* but not to perish for eternity.

The purpose of the fire, I believe, is not to torment in the sense of burning flesh. Rather, it is to remove from our plane of existence, ie to remove the souls of those who rejected Christ from the new Paradise.

There is a kind of "fire" in "Hell," if you want to call it that? It's the fire of heat, creating thirst. I believe it will be a spiritual thirst, since the satisfying presence of God will be somewhat removed from those who were offended by His presence.

But this is not fire to *burn flesh.* That would be unbelievably cruel. If you've ever been burned for just a short time, can you imagine having God put your hand on a stove for *all eternity?*

God wouldn't do that. But the decision to depart from God's presence will surely be regretted, and may explain the "torment" in "Hell." I call it "Outer Darkness," but you may call it "Hell," if you wish?

 

[ButterflyJones]

Your foolish statements here as well as on other matters elsewhere, are unfortunate!

They're only considered foolish by that one who is too young to admit he does not actually bear the knowledge he feigns. That indeed is very unfortunate of you.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Again, Hades, or "Hell," is thrown into the Lake of Fire, so it perishes for all eternity. But since human souls do not die, they are thrown into the Lake of Fire to be disposed of *on this earth,* but not to perish for eternity.

The purpose of the fire, I believe, is not to torment in the sense of burning flesh. Rather, it is to remove from our plane of existence, ie to remove the souls of those who rejected Christ from the new Paradise.

There is a kind of "fire" in "Hell," if you want to call it that? It's the fire of heat, creating thirst. I believe it will be a spiritual thirst, since the satisfying presence of God will be somewhat removed from those who were offended by His presence.

But this is not fire to *burn flesh.* That would be unbelievably cruel. If you've ever been burned for just a short time, can you imagine having God put your hand on a stove for *all eternity?*

God wouldn't do that. But the decision to depart from God's presence will surely be regretted, and may explain the "torment" in "Hell." I call it "Outer Darkness," but you may call it "Hell," if you wish?

I'm not sure about that since it says in the bible, there will be weeping which seems to imply they're still in the flesh crying from their eyes and 'knashing of "teeth"' which means they're still in the flesh as they still have teeth that didn't decay. I changed what I wrote in my post after I read the scripture a second time. I don't mind reading what you have to say after this but if we don't agree then I'll agree to disagree. Thanks.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

@Randy Kluth This is the Word of God which explains it. So yes, God is merciful and compassionate at first to everyone and longsuffering and Jesus has taught us on the Sermon on the Mount that we are blessed if we are merciful for we will also receive mercy but this:

Hebrews 10:26 NLT​

Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies.

 

[quietthinker]

Well I know in Matthew 25:35-46 NASB at least what I read there, there will be eternal punishment into an eternal fire for the unrighteous and it also says in the bible, there will be weeping and knashing of teeth there so it's a conscious torment, eternity in hell. Anyway, if you don't agree, we can just agree to disagree. Thanks.

Understanding the terms used in the overall picture of events, terms like, 'eternal punishment', and where 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' fit, is helpful.
Not understanding it and lumping it into one indiscriminate 'puddle' confuses everything.

It is the character God which is in question. Misunderstand it and everything becomes bent out of shape. Whatever one understands about the character of God becomes the springboard and under pining factor for the various views.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'm not sure about that since it says in the bible, there will be weeping which seems to imply they're still in the flesh crying from their eyes and 'knashing of "teeth"' which means they're still in the flesh as they still have teeth that didn't decay. I changed what I wrote in my post after I read the scripture a second time. I don't mind reading what you have to say after this but if we don't agree then I'll agree to disagree. Thanks.

Yes, just reading what I have to say on a matter doesn't mean you agree with it! We're reading the same Bible, and taking from it what seems most likely to us. I'm not at all meaning to say people who are Lost don't have bodies--they certainly do, since the Lost also are "raised from the dead."

What I'm saying is that God doesn't torment people by physically afflicting them with torture devices like sadistic people do. Their suffering is the result of their own choice to separate from God.