Lets Define "Works"

[Mungo]

Paul does not teach that we are saved by “these” works and just not “those” as works-salvationists teach. Se post #44 from the link below:

saved by faith alone

It is quite clear if you read the Bible that Paul refers to not being saved by "works of the Law" as I showed.

 

[mailmandan]

It is quite clear if you read the Bible that Paul refers to not being saved by "works of the Law" as I showed.

Not merely specific “works of the law” but just not other works as I already explained in post #44. So which works are you trusting in for salvation?

 

[Addy]

Good point. I have often asked works-salvationists how many works must they accomplish and “add” as a supplement to Christ’s finished work of redemption in order to “help” Christ save them, yet that question never gets answered. It’s as if God grades on a curve in their minds and all they can do is cross their fingers and hope they were “good enough” and receive a passing grade.

Yep... It's a sad sack of potatoes....

 

[Illuminator]

Yep... It's a sad sack of potatoes....

"good works" apart from the grace of Christ, is a sad sack of potatoes.

 

[marks]

This question NEVER gets answered.... it's always Do good and Be good... but there is never a measure of how GOOD.

I think this is because we can fail to realize the significance of God's Holiness. We can think that we can pass through on a bell curve. Or we tell ourselves some sins don't count. I know a quite a few people who seem to think that way. This sort of sin will cost your salvation, but that sort won't. All sin is rebellion to God. All sin is corruption of the man. We don't get to just pick out some and say, Those won't matter to God! We need Complete salvation!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Good point. I have often asked works-salvationists how many works must they accomplish and “add” as a supplement to Christ’s finished work of redemption in order to “help” Christ save them, yet that question never gets answered. It’s as if God grades on a curve in their minds and all they can do is cross their fingers and hope they were “good enough” and receive a passing grade.

See, I should read more posts first before replying . . .

So . . . ditto!

Much love!

 

[Addy]

I think this is because we can fail to realize the significance of God's Holiness. We can think that we can pass through on a bell curve. Or we tell ourselves some sins don't count. I know a quite a few people who seem to think that way. This sort of sin will cost your salvation, but that sort won't. All sin is rebellion to God. All sin is corruption of the man. We don't get to just pick out some and say, Those won't matter to God! We need Complete salvation!

I will add this that many Christians do not believe that the BLOOD of CHRIST has purchased us. That thought alone should scare the legalists to death.

 

[Wrangler]

I think that many differences in theology are the results of Christians definition of WORKS

Great topic and welcome to the forum.

As I wrote in other threads, I think people confuse the 21st century scientific concept of work with the Biblical concept of Works.

My church teaches that faith = belief + work. Real faith is demonstrated by action, in obedience to God's will and the gates of heaven will not be breached with lip service. The prerequisite work one must do is slay the world's biggest IDOL, one's one ego.

Works is for your glory. Work is for the glory of God. We are saved by faith and act as called. It is not one building an alter or other such works that will earn one salvation. Simple discernment.

 

[Mungo]

Not merely specific “works of the law” but just not other works as I already explained in post #44. So which works are you trusting in for salvation?

Depends what you mean by works and what you mean by salvation.

 

[farouk]

Ephesians 2.1-10 is a great reference point about faith, works and salvation.

 

[Illuminator]

Good point. I have often asked works-salvationists how many works must they accomplish and “add” as a supplement to Christ’s finished work of redemption in order to “help” Christ save them, yet that question never gets answered. It’s as if God grades on a curve in their minds and all they can do is cross their fingers and hope they were “good enough” and receive a passing grade.

"Romanists" (an insulting term) are not "works salvationists". (another insulting term) Your Calvinistic premise is false and it has been refuted several times.

As usual, anti-Catholics are unwilling or unable to understand the relationship of human free will to God’s grace. We believe we can cooperate with God’s grace in order to “merit.” Yet that very merit is itself completely an act of God’s grace. Here is some more relevant information to consider:

The Second Council of Orange (529 A.D.), accepted as dogma by the Catholic Church, dogmatically taught in its Canon 7:

If anyone asserts that we can, by our natural powers, think as we ought, or choose any good pertaining to the salvation of eternal life . . . without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . . he is misled by a heretical spirit . . . [goes on to cite John 15:5, 2 Cor 3:5]​

Likewise, the ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-63): Chapter 5, Decree on Justification:

. . . Man . . . is not able, by his own free-will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.​

Canon I on Justification:

If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
​

Yet the "works salvation" myth won't go away.

The existence of a measure of human free will in order for man to cooperate with God’s grace does not reduce inevitably and necessarily to Semi-Pelagianism, as Luther, Calvin, and present-day Calvinists wrongly charge. The Catholic view is a third way. Our “meritorious actions” are always necessarily preceded and caused and crowned and bathed in God’s enabling grace. But this doesn’t wipe out our cooperation, which is not intrinsically meritorious in the sense that it derives from us and not God . . . Second Orange again:

The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be accomplished meritoriously.
​

Sadly, this is too difficult for the anti-Catholic to grasp.

Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott describes the Catholic view:

As God’s grace is the presupposition and foundation of supernatural good works, by which man merits eternal life, so salutary works are, at the same time gifts of God and meritorious acts of man. (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1974 [orig. 1952], 264)​

St. Augustine wrote:

What merit of man is there before grace by which he can achieve grace, as only grace works every one of our good merits in us, and as God, when He crowns our merits, crowns nothing else but His own gifts? (Ep. 194, 5, 19; in Ott, 265)

The Lord has made Himself a debtor, not by receiving, but by promising. Man cannot say to Him, “Give back what thou hast received” but only “Give what thou hast promised.” (Enarr. in Ps 83, 16; in Ott, 267)​

The concept of merit and its corollary reward is well-supported in Scripture

Matthew 5:12;
Matthew 19:17, 21, 29;
Matthew 25:21; 25:34 ff.;
Luke 6:38;
Romans 2:6;
1 Corinthians 3:8; 9:17;
Colossians 3:24;
Hebrews 6:10; 10:35; 11:6;
2 Tim 4:8;
Eph 6:8

It's easy to find Catholics who can't reduce all the above information into sound bytes that Protestants can accept, because as you can see, the "earn salvation" myth is not so simple. But despite all this evidence, the myth continues. Especially when anti-Catholic teachers, like James McCarthy, with Ph.D's, who have repeatedly encountered Catholic apologists and KNOW Catholic teaching, deliberately LIE about it anyway with books and videos.
Catholic Merit vs. Distorted Caricatures (James McCarthy) | Dave Armstrong (patheos.com)

The next time you encounter an ignorant Catholic who says we earn our salvation, ask them if they understand the heresy of Pelagianism. If they don't, find one who does.

 

[APAK]

Gotta LOVE the mailman.... Speaking of which... My mailman's name is Alain... He is french... and I also speak french... Every time I see him walking by.... I YELL OUT.... Oh Dear Heart... I love you..... It is a bit different in french... but that is the general drift.... HE loves it... and I love saying it....

It is in the little things that CHRIST can shine brightest...

So you tell the mailman....Oh Cher Cœur... Je t'aime! .....luvly

 

[Addy]

OH my goodness @APAK ... the man of many talents... HAHAHAHA....
I can't spell... which is strange because I am fluent in speaking.. but not in writing or reading... so here we go... this is what I tell
my wonderful Alain.... Bonjour beau coeur.... Que'sh taime.... ( I don't know how to properly spell that que's part.... LOL )

Too funny... you made my heart smile really big... and I actually talked to the mailman this morning... because as I yelled my usual greeting
he announced that he is going on holidays for 3 weeks... I told him it was going to be very difficult NOT to spontaneously scream out my line of affection... Last year it was a female replacement and I trained her to accept my loving offering of affection... I guess I'll have to see if this new guy is responsive to old women yelling things... HAHAHAHAHA.... you just wanted to hear my Canadian laugh..

On a more serious note... APAK... you gotta talk to Backlit about his avatar... that new thing he has on there is NASTY looking... LOL

 

[APAK]

OH my goodness @APAK ... the man of many talents... HAHAHAHA....
I can't spell... which is strange because I am fluent in speaking.. but not in writing or reading... so here we go... this is what I tell
my wonderful Alain.... Bonjour beau coeur.... Que's taime.... ( I don't know how to properly spell that que's part.... LOL )

Too funny... you made my heart smile really big... and I actually talked to the mailman this morning... because as I yelled my usual greeting
he announced that he is going on holidays for 3 weeks... I told him it was going to be very difficult NOT to spontaneously scream out my line of affection... Last year it was a female replacement and I trained her to accept my loving offering of affection... I guess I'll have to see if this new guy is responsive to old women yelling things... HAHAHAHAHA.... you just wanted to hear my Canadian laugh..

On a more serious note... APAK... you gotta talk to Backlit about his avatar... that new thing he has on there is NASTY looking... LOL

Maybe I can convince @Backlit to change his avatar to a joey or a Koala bear....HAHAHAHA xx

 

[Addy]

Maybe I can convince @Backlit to change his avatar to a joey or a Koala bear....HAHAHAHA xx

I'm counting on you.... ANYTHING.... but not that thing... HAHAHAHAHA... Now that I have made a fuss... His pride will kick in and he will choose to become rebellious.... HAHAHA.... So lovely to take a few laugh breaks here and there. Blessings to you DEAR Apak ( my beloved go-to guy )

 

[TheslightestID]

Works= ANYTHING added to the already finished work of CHRIST on the Cross for the sake of SALVATION.

Those who believe in works are those who cannot accept that SALVATION is a one time event that occurs at the moment of our
conversion. It is a supernatural event... It has NOTHING to do with us... and EVERYTHING to do with CHRIST. He purchases us with great cost by His Blood. Done deal. Once and for all.

What transpires in the life of a believer after that is called sanctification... It is the process of letting go of the flesh. Sadly... so
many believers think it is their right to INTERFERE... and TAMPER with/MEDDLE in this process... by judging... comparing and
filling another believer with guilt and shame. CHRIST NEVER fills us with guilt and shame... and HE is most FAITHFUL to
finish within us... that which HE has begun... which is a GOOD WORK.

Please read the parable of the sheep and the Goats, especially the part I will quote below, and tell me, once we are saved, if we fail to do the works of taking care of those in need, will we go to heaven or hell?

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[prism]

Not necessarily. Those who are saved by grace are required to do good works (Ephesians 2:10 and other passages) and to live righteously, soberly, and godly in this present world. No one is justified by works, and no one can maintain salvation by works. But that does not mean that Christians are not required and expected to do good works.

As James says: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

No more 'required' than an apple tree is required to produce apples. Our good works are the result of God first working in us.

 

[TheslightestID]

No more 'required' than an apple tree is required to produce apples. Our good works are the result of God first working in us.

Our good works are something we choos to do out of obediance to God. God doesn't make us do anything, as you suggest.

 

[Enoch111]

No more 'required' than an apple tree is required to produce apples.

So you think James was just wasting his breath? If the epistle to James is the Word of God (which it is) then James makes it crystal clear that if there are no good works from those claiming to have saving faith, they must go back to square one. So in fact they are required as evidence of saving faith.

 

[prism]

Our good works are something we choos to do out of obediance to God. God doesn't make us do anything, as you suggest.

Correct, as long as we keep in mind that our voluntary obedience doesn't substitute for Christ's perfect obedience.