Let's examine Revelation 20:4 yet again.

[David in NJ]

How so? I quoted their own words?

If that’s a stretch then ever scripture would be a stretch in your view

You quoted the jealous words of the pharisees.

They were not the words of Prophecy of the Lord or the Holy Spirit or the Apostles.

To credit their words as having anything to do with "satan's little season" is not applicable in any way or form.

 

[Marty fox]

You quoted the jealous words of the pharisees.

They were not the words of Prophecy of the Lord or the Holy Spirit or the Apostles.

To credit their words as having anything to do with "satan's little season" is not applicable in any way or form.

It’s what they called the area not biblical teaching

 

[David in NJ]

It’s what they called the area not biblical teaching

Not sure about that as even the words of the pharisees gives opportunity to discover Truth since the Holy Spirit included their words for our benefit.

The verse that you quoted of them has nothing to do with satan being loosed after the 1,000 years.

 

[Marty fox]

Not sure about that as even the words of the pharisees gives opportunity to discover Truth since the Holy Spirit included their words for our benefit.

The verse that you quoted of them has nothing to do with satan being loosed after the 1,000 years.

I never said that it had to do with that because it doesn’t I was showing what the considered the world back then

 

[David in NJ]

I never said that it had to do with that because it doesn’t I was showing what the considered the world back then

I believe it was hyperbole on their part because of their jealousy.

Secondly, the Jews were/are prideful people that believe Gentiles are dogs.

Based on these truths, it seems quite clear that great exaggeration of words that pertain to their extreme jealousy and envy against Christ because of the Jewish people turning to JESUS = obviously not the known world = which they knew a lot of back then.

 

[Lizbeth]

If you conclude that Luke 21:32 relates to 70 AD, then is that what you believe about Luke 21:25-31 as well?

I'm only seeing in part, by God's grace...seeing through a glass darkly, but one thing I'm sure of is that God/Jesus is speaking in spirit, not speaking two-dimensionally. It's like there can be more than one layer to the things He is saying.

However, I've heard some say that there was a returning of Christ to Israel, but I don't know what they are basing it on. I understand Josephus recorded some eye witness accounts of supernatural things going on....signs in the sky etc. All power/authority in heaven and earth had already been given to Jesus, Lamb of God and Son of God....so the wrath that came down upon Israel in 70AD would have been HIS (the Lamb's wrath) and not the Father's wrath per se.....the Lamb conquering/destroying His enemies....I believe He really began to reign "officially" then after giving Israel space to repent...longsuffering her rebellion for a time, in which more Jewish souls were saved meanwhile. All these things were to the Jew first, then the Gentile, so after those events concerning Israel and her judgements, we are now in the time of longsuffering the world/nations (Gentile) and saving souls from the nations, until the time of the world being judged arrives.

And just want to note that Revelation records the outer court of the Temple being trodden by the Gentiles too, like Jesus prophesied.....the more I look the more I see everything in Rev is a reiteration of the earlier scriptures. I don't see that it is saying anything new, unless someone can point it out to me, but it is summing up and reiterating, giving witness to and revealing as it were, the earlier accounts and prophecies...and warning that Israel/Jerusalem was shortly to be judged, the pouring out of plagues of wrath upon her. ("come out of her my people, lest ye receive of her plagues".)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is JESUS Answer directly to you, me and everyone!

But i see that you do not like the Answer from the LORD

I'm not going to waste any more time on you. Telling me I don't like the answer from the LORD? What kind of response is that to my question about who you think will populate the earth during the supposed future thousand years despite you agreeing that all of the wicked will be destroyed when Jesus returns? Ridiculous. You act very childish on this forum for some reason and don't seem interested in actually discussing the topic of the thread.

 

[Lizbeth]

That is some serious streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch of Scripture that i have seen so far!!!

The Word made flesh speaks in parables, and always has. The false shepherds eating the choice meat of the sheep.....means they are living like kings from exploiting and making merchandise of the sheep. Like we see with televangelists now and like the religious leaders were devouring widows houses. Walled cities in scripture can be speaking to churches/denominations/synagogues/sects. Jesus turning over the tables and driving out the money-changers accusing them of turning His Father's house into a house of merchandise.........bookended His ministry. He did it at the beginning of His ministry and He did it again at the end of His ministry. So expect a repeat of the same judgment at the end of this age.

That was God's Judgment on a specific building/Temple and those who murdered CHRIST

But it was not God's Wrath which is Reserved for the Second Coming of Christ upon the whole world.

It certainly was wrath in 70AD and will be wrath upon the whole world in the end of this age.

Rom 2:6-10

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile

This is now/today.

Yes, I completely agree....and it was in ancient times too. The church is making the same mistakes that our "ensample" Israel did unfortunately. Nothing new under the sun. To the Jew first, then the Gentile.

Israel is reffered to as "the land"

The "earth" refers to the nations

Isaiah chapter 245 is the OT prophecy that is REPEATED by the LORD in Revelation 6:12-17
It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the Lord of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.

Yes, Israel is sometimes referred to as the land. Earth is land, no? It is sometimes earth as opposed to heaven....things coming from heaven to earth, doesn't necessarily always means coming to the whole planet.

Lizbeth, we are waiting for the Second Coming of Christ = GOSPEL, 1st and 2nd Thess , 1 Cor chapter 15 and MORE

DO NOT sin against God's words by saying "the Resurrection is past" = 2 Timothy 2:16-18

Certainly agree that there are still things waiting for their fulfillment. Jesus' resurrection and that of the OT saints is past, but not the resurrection of NT saints who have a part in that first resurrection.

 

[Lizbeth]

Classic Preterist confusion. You treat ‘that generation’ like a vague footnote, have no clue what ‘the sword’ really means, and your ‘led away captive’ sounds like a tourist trip. Which Jerusalem are you imagining? And those ‘Gentiles’—please, do enlighten us, since Scripture clearly tells a different story than your assumptions.

I'm not a full preterist. What I believe is..."to the Jew first, then the Gentile". I hope you will take the time to consider some of what is being said, and not just dismiss it all out of hand because it is new to you.

 

[Lizbeth]

Classic Preterist confusion. You treat ‘that generation’ like a vague footnote, have no clue what ‘the sword’ really means, and your ‘led away captive’ sounds like a tourist trip. Which Jerusalem are you imagining? And those ‘Gentiles’—please, do enlighten us, since Scripture clearly tells a different story than your assumptions.

And I want to add, that it is dispensationalists who treat the events of 70 AD as a footnote rather than the fulfillment of much prophecy., including Jesus'. I am saying it is important that we treat it as important. And it certainly was "important" to Israel to whom it was prophesied and who had to live through it.

 

[David in NJ]

The Word made flesh speaks in parables, and always has. The false shepherds eating the choice meat of the sheep.....means they are living like kings from exploiting and making merchandise of the sheep. Like we see with televangelists now and like the religious leaders were devouring widows houses. Walled cities in scripture can be speaking to churches/denominations/synagogues/sects. Jesus turning over the tables and driving out the money-changers accusing them of turning His Father's house into a house of merchandise.........bookended His ministry. He did it at the beginning of His ministry and He did it again at the end of His ministry. So expect a repeat of the same judgment at the end of this age.


It certainly was wrath in 70AD and will be wrath upon the whole world in the end of this age.

Rom 2:6-10

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile


Yes, I completely agree....and it was in ancient times too. The church is making the same mistakes that our "ensample" Israel did unfortunately. Nothing new under the sun. To the Jew first, then the Gentile.


Yes, Israel is sometimes referred to as the land. Earth is land, no? It is sometimes earth as opposed to heaven....things coming from heaven to earth, doesn't necessarily always means coming to the whole planet.


Certainly agree that there are still things waiting for their fulfillment. Jesus' resurrection and that of the OT saints is past, but not the resurrection of NT saints who have a part in that first resurrection.

Lizbeth, Good Morning,

Do not confuse the small, localized Judgments of GOD upon Israel as the Day of the LORD when Christ brings down the Wrath of GOD

i am making fresh coffee = come on over

 

[Lizbeth]

Lizbeth, Good Morning,

Do not confuse the small, localized Judgments of GOD upon Israel as the Day of the LORD when Christ brings down the Wrath of GOD

i am making fresh coffee = come on over

Good morning bro, thank you for the invite. :)

What happened to Israel was wrath, golly, but just not the final one that will involve the destruction of the whole world.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I'm not a full preterist.

I do not care if it’s full, partial, moderate, or coventantal preterism. All are WRONG.

What I believe is..."to the Jew first, then the Gentile".

quote that verse and what does the context talks about? Nothing to do with 70AD.

I hope you will take the time to consider some of what is being said, and not just dismiss it all out of hand because it is new to you.

New to ME? Based on what edvience do you based it on? Chuckle.

 

[TribulationSigns]

And I want to add, that it is dispensationalists who treat the events of 70 AD as a footnote rather than the fulfillment of much prophecy., including Jesus'. I am saying it is important that we treat it as important. And it certainly was "important" to Israel to whom it was prophesied and who had to live through it.

I dont care what the dispensationalists think. Their doctrine of future physical temple is as bad as your doctrine of temple destruction in 70AD. You two have common blindness to what temple the Lord talked about - - just like the Jews in Christ’s days.

 

[David in NJ]

Good morning bro, thank you for the invite. :)

What happened to Israel was wrath, golly, but just not the final one that will involve the destruction of the whole world.

AGREE
Therefore, CHRIST's Second Coming was not in 70AD = as the kings of the earth/nations and the world will be in great DREAD & FEAR

GREAT Coffee, by-the-Way, and you are always Welcome!!!
Though i may seem harsh to some, it is only due to God's Commandment = we should never alter His words/remember Gen ch3

In person you will find your lowly brother who loves the Body of Christ = all whom the FATHER Calls

Shalom my Sister in Christ

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm only seeing in part, by God's grace...seeing through a glass darkly, but one thing I'm sure of is that God/Jesus is speaking in spirit, not speaking two-dimensionally. It's like there can be more than one layer to the things He is saying.

I don't know what you mean by this. Please explain.

However, I've heard some say that there was a returning of Christ to Israel, but I don't know what they are basing it on.

They are basing it on their imaginations, in my opinion.

I understand Josephus recorded some eye witness accounts of supernatural things going on....signs in the sky etc. All power/authority in heaven and earth had already been given to Jesus, Lamb of God and Son of God....so the wrath that came down upon Israel in 70AD would have been HIS (the Lamb's wrath) and not the Father's wrath per se

I disagree.

Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

In this parable, the king represents God the Father and the son obviously represents Jesus, the Son of God. This passage is talking about when the gospel first went out to the Jews after Christ's death and resurrection. As we know, the Jews, for the most part, rejected the gospel and persecuted many of those who preached the gospel. The account of Stephen, of course, is recorded in Acts. From historical accounts, all of the disciples were persecuted and most were killed. So, look who Jesus said was the one who had the unbelieving Jews who rejected the gospel offer of salvation destroyed. It was the king. God the Father. So, it was the Father's wrath that was taken out on the Jews in 70 AD, not the Lamb's wrath. The Lamb's wrath will come when Jesus returns in the future to take vengeance on all unbelievers, as described in passages like Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:11-21.

.....the Lamb conquering/destroying His enemies....I believe He really began to reign "officially" then after giving Israel space to repent...longsuffering her rebellion for a time, in which more Jewish souls were saved meanwhile.

Jesus began reigning officially when all power and authority was given to Him after His resurrection (Matthew 28:18). At that point God the Father had placed all things under His feet with Him being above all authorities on earth and in heaven (Ephesians 1:19-22).

And just want to note that Revelation records the outer court of the Temple being trodden by the Gentiles too, like Jesus prophesied.....the more I look the more I see everything in Rev is a reiteration of the earlier scriptures.

The temple of God mentioned in Revelation 11 is located in heaven, not on earth (See Revelation 11:19). When Revelation was written, which I believe was likely around 95 AD, the physical temple was no longer standing. But, even if the book was written before 70 AD, the physical temple was no longer the temple of God after Christ died and the veil of the temple was torn in two. So, the temple of God referenced in Revelation 11 cannot be the physical temple in Jerusalem. The "Gentiles" (Greek: ethnos) referenced in Revelation 11 are the heathen (ethnos also means heathen) who are outside the church.

It's not talking about John literally measuring a physical temple (why would he do that?), it's figuratively talking about him noting which people are and which people are not in the church. The book of Revelation is all about Jesus Christ and His church and about the enemies of Jesus Christ and His church. It has nothing to do with Israel or with Jerusalem and its physical temple.

I don't see that it is saying anything new, unless someone can point it out to me, but it is summing up and reiterating, giving witness to and revealing as it were, the earlier accounts and prophecies...and warning that Israel/Jerusalem was shortly to be judged, the pouring out of plagues of wrath upon her. ("come out of her my people, lest ye receive of her plagues".)

I think you are being led astray by false preterist teaching. Keep studying and praying about it.

 

[Marty fox]

I'm not going to waste any more time on you. Telling me I don't like the answer from the LORD? What kind of response is that to my question about who you think will populate the earth during the supposed future thousand years despite you agreeing that all of the wicked will be destroyed when Jesus returns? Ridiculous. You act very childish on this forum for some reason and don't seem interested in actually discussing the topic of the thread.

Answers like this come when he can't answer a question

 

[David in NJ]

Answers like this come when he can't answer a question

LOL

Answers are given and prescribed to the intended audience that will not HEAR God's Words

 

[Lizbeth]

I dont care what the dispensationalists think. Their doctrine of future physical temple is as bad as your doctrine of temple destruction in 70AD. You two have common blindness to what temple the Lord talked about - - just like the Jews in Christ’s days.

If you feel you have some truth then why don't you share it ? I have no idea at all what you believe or why except that apparently you disagree with me on these things for some reason. As for me I rather marvel at the blindness of those who can't see there are things that were to the Jew FIRST, then the Gentile. It. doesn't seem like a hard concept to grasp. The Lord was speaking to and dealing with Israel FIRST....shouldn't be that difficult to put ourselves in Israel's shoes back then and understand how Jesus and prophecy were speaking to them. He and the prophets certainly prophesied of the tribulation and destruction to come to Israel...faithfully warning them. The Lord was (and is) always faithful to warn before sending judgment. Not just was the gospel to the Jew first, but also tribulation and wrath, as per the scripture I posted. But we need ears to hear/eyes to see....otherwise these things are hid.

 

[David in NJ]

to the Jew FIRST, then the Gentile. It. doesn't seem like a hard concept to grasp. The Lord was speaking to and dealing with Israel FIRST....shouldn't be that difficult to put ourselves in Israel's shoes back then and understand how Jesus and prophecy were speaking to them.

AMEN = CRYSTAL CLEAR in the Scriptures

He and the prophets certainly prophesied of the tribulation and destruction to come to Israel...faithfully warning them. The Lord was (and is) always faithful to warn before sending judgment.

AMEN = CRYSTAL CLEAR in the Scriptures

Not just was the gospel to the Jew first, but also tribulation and wrath, as per the scripture I posted.

OOPS here my Sister

70AD was NOT the Day of Jacob's Trouble = which is soon coming

THINK my Sister = the Holocaust was FAR more wrathful upon the Jews then 70AD

The Day of Jacob's Trouble = Two Thirds of the Jewish people will PERISH = Zechariah chapter 13