Let's examine Revelation 20:4 yet again.

[Marvelloustime]

now you see , THAT IS A GOOD example . For it is very clear JERUSALEM was NOT SAVED BY GOD IN seventy AD
but rather DESTROYED BY the armies GOD raised up against it FOR ITS REBELLION TO GOD and TO HIS CHRIST .
YET in chapter twenty , THE cAMP of THE SAINTS , which means FAITHFUL TO JESUS ones ,
GOD TOTALLY SHUTS that army that comes against IT DOWN . and RIGHT QUICKLY TOO .

@amigo de christo

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As an Amillennialist you believe that all the events of Revelation 20 precede the return of Christ.

That's why you can't follow what I'm saying.

No, that's incorrect. I'm perfectly capable of following explanations of beliefs that I disagree with if they are explained clearly. I happen to believe that you are sometimes not very good at explaining some of the things you believe very clearly (and sometimes you do explain what you believe clearly...just not always, in my opinion).

Short answer to one short question:

1. I believe that the events in

Rev 20:1-10 and
Rev chapters 21-22

both follow the return of Christ, and are occurring simultaneously in paradise during the first age of the ages of the ages (Revelation 11:15) which follows the return of Christ.

"The ages of the ages": an indeterminate number of aeons (endless cycles of time).

2. I believe that Rev 20:1-10 are parenthetic verses deliberately inserted in-between:

Rev 19:20-21
Rev 20:11-15.

which talk about events that occur with the return of Christ.

That's the short answer.

Okay, so that means you do believe that Revelation 20:11-15 occurs before Revelation 20:1-10, which is what I was asking about. Obviously, I disagree with that. Not sure what more I can say about that without just repeating things that we've probably already discussed several times before.

As for your reference to "the ages of the ages", which you equate with "endless cycles of time", what do you think is the difference between that and eternity? Isn't eternity basically endless time?

Here's the rest that you did not ask for: (do not read if your mind is closed or if you simply do not want to):

My mind is not fully closed even though I obviously very strongly believe that my current view about this topic is correct. But, in order to change my mind about anything you would need to make clear, convincing arguments. But, when it comes to this topic, I don't believe you come anywhere near doing that. With that said, I'll read what you have to say here and will respond if I think it would be fruitful to do so. Otherwise, I won't.

I believe that Rev 20:4-6 are also parenthetic verses deliberately inserted in-between

Rev 20:1-3
Rev 20: 7-10

to give us the timing for what we read about in Rev 20:1-10:

* Rev 15:2: Those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, are seen standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

* The same ones are seen alive [zao] and reigning with Christ in Rev 20:4-6, where John is told that this is the first resurrection of the body [anastasis].

I don't understand what you're saying here. Revelation 20:1-3 refers to the thousand years, as does Revelation 20:4-6. Do you not see the thousands years referenced in Revelation 20:1-3 as being the same thousand years referenced in Revelation 20:4-6?

EXPLANATION ONCE AGAIN (do not read if you do not want to)​

FIRST REBELLION AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD - IN PARADISE:

(a) Satan's deception of Adam & Eve (which began with the words "You will NOT surely die" - Genesis 3:1-7, 11-19).

-- in Adam all mankind failed the test --

(b) Expulsion from Eden (Genesis 3:22-24).

(c) Death of Adam (the first death) - 930 years later (Genesis 5:5).

IN-BETWEEN THE FIRST REBELLION AND THE FINAL REBELLION AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD:

--- "I am the Resurrection [anastasis]
and the (eternal) life [zoe]!" (John 11:25) ---​

FINAL REBELLION AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD - IN PARADISE

(a) Satan's deception of the nations descended from Adam & Eve.

-- one part of mankind descended from Adam and Eve failed the test --

and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." (Revelation 20:7-9).

FIRST REBELLION: God tested mankind in paradise by allowing Satan to lie to them about the Word of God.

Consequence: Death of Adam (the first death) - 930 years later (Genesis 5:5).

FINAL REBELLION: God tested mankind in paradise by allowing Satan to lie to them about the Word of God.

Consequence: Fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." (Revelation 20:7-9).

Note:

The concept of being damned while alive in the body [zao] is not extra-biblical or alien to scripture:

(a) The beast and the false prophet were both thrown alive [zao] into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Revelation 19:20).

(b) The New Testament uses the word "gehennah" every time Jesus talks about the everlasting destruction of body and soul

- in Mark 9:43 & 45 Jesus calls it "the fire that shall never be quenched".

Gehennah and the lake of fire burning with brimstone BOTH represent an everlasting destruction of body and soul.

"Fear not them which kill the body [soma], but are not able to kill the soul [psuche]: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul [psuche] and body [soma] in gehennah [G1067 geenna]." -- Matthew 10:28.

Whether through the death of the body or through God's destruction of body and soul,

the spirit (breath) of life from God that is in Christ

- will go back to the God who gave it. -- Ecclesiastes 12:7

- the souls of those who had been resurrected from the dead and were immortal but yet rebelled against the Word of God eternally separated from the life which is given to us in God through Christ, when the final rebellion against the Word of God occurs - in paradise, and God destroys them - body and soul - by fire coming down from God out of heaven.

That was very hard to follow, so it's hard to even comment on it. You have Revelation 20:11-15 occurring when Jesus returns, right? I think you see it as the same judgment described in Matthew 25:31-46? That means that all whose names are written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire, which Jesus refers to as "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), when Jesus returns. Agree? If so, then who exactly would be the ones that you think will populate the earth during the thousand years and later be destroyed by fire from heaven (Rev 20:9), keeping in mind that Paul said all believers will be changed to put on immortality when Jesus returns at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54)? Anyone who has an immortal body (immortal means living forever, never dying) can't be destroyed, so Revelation 20:9 must refer to fire coming down from heaven to earth to physically destroy living mortal people, not people with immortal bodies who can't die.

 

[amigo de christo]

May the Lord bless you and your family David....and may you be encouraged and empowered to keep up the good work you are doing where you are! That is more important I believe than parsing all the details of eschatology.

Here is another real simple reminder .
What is one key thing that is now taking many and soon many more right to the lie .
What is the one thing also that has been removed by this . THE GOSPEL OF YE MUST BELIEVE IN CHRIST TO BE SAVED
is being removed more and more by this ecumeincal interfaith train .
WHAT did the apostels focus on , NAMELY keeping the church reminded about THE FAITH and teachings OF JESUS CHRIST
EVEN though they knew the TRUTH . and namely warning against all that was contrary and came f rom seducers .
WE NEED to get t his people planted firmly BACK ON THE ONE TRUE GOSPEL
IF we think the apostels were already having to warn the church about seducers
about that which is of anti christ
WELL THEN , LOOK AROUND , ITS no longer just trying to come into churches
ITS TAKEN A WHOLE LOT of them over . WE have GOT to bring this people
back to the basics , BACK TO THE FIRST FAITH and fast .
FOR many seducers have not only crept in , They now lead and have taken OVER A LOT of even christendom today .
The HOUSE IS ON FIRE with ecumeincal love and has not idea that fire will lead to its own destruction
ON the day of the LORD . More and more do i mams , kabbala jews , hindus , atheists and etc
GET ON THIS T RAIN they beleive is love and will lead this world to peace n safety .I HAVE seen
a great abomination , THIS PEOPLE joins hands WITH muslims , with u nbelieveing jews , with hindus
with even WICANS FOR WORLD PEACE . and much more .
BUT we were never to have joined hands with darkness or found ANYTHING in common with it .
THIS IS GONNA BE THE END OF THIS WO RLD as we know it , ON THE DAY OF THE LORD .
ITS peace IS of the spirit of anti christ by which many anti christs , including many in wool
are leading this world and her religoins Right to by means of a peace THAT TRODS JESUS UNDER FOOT
and has made the road TO GOD VERY BROAD INDEED .

 

[amigo de christo]

@amigo de christo
View attachment 77947

TO the trenches my dear sister . The hour is late and later than it was just yesteday .
The end of it all cometh on THE DAY of THE GREAT AND MIGHTY GOD and HIS CHRIST .
For though he called they did not answer
and though he had sent some to warn they would not hear .
But have chosen to heed the falseones who preah a false seducing GOD CHRIST TRODDING UDNER FOOT love .
A delusion unlike anything i had ever seen or known has quickly filled up and is filling up
many places with a lie that ought never once to have been uttered and specially not by those in wool .

 

[David in NJ]

TO the trenches my dear sister . The hour is late and later than it was just yesteday .
The end of it all cometh on THE DAY of THE GREAT AND MIGHTY GOD and HIS CHRIST .
For though he called they did not answer
and though he had sent some to warn they would not hear .
But have chosen to heed the falseones who preah a false seducing GOD CHRIST TRODDING UDNER FOOT love .
A delusion unlike anything i had ever seen or known has quickly filled up and is filling up
many places with a lie that ought never once to have been uttered and specially not by those in wool .

GOD has never stopped Sending Holy Spirit filled Saints to the 'christians' to warn them of "It is Written"

 

[amigo de christo]

GOD has never stopped Sending Holy Spirit filled Saints to the 'christians' to warn them of "It is Written"

Nor has the dark one never stopped sending unholy spirit filled aints to warn them of it is written , ONLY
They as do their father twist it unto their own destruction .
In the case of every nation recoreded in the bible , to every city , to even the jews
to even the days of noah . NEAR THE END of every one of their time
WHAT was loved . EVIL and just as it did in every example IT had waxed massive
THEN CAME THE DESTRUCTION upon them all bY GOD .
When evil is called good
when light be put for darkness
WHEN NO DIFFERENCE is put between evil and good
but rather acceptance of evil is preached and by means of a love gone wrong the words of GOD
become not only hidden from , BUT MOCKED and SIN honored for all to see
THEN JUST KNOW THE END IS NEAR of such a city , of such a nation
of even such a world .
NOW GO TO AND BEHOLD this world
GO TO and BEHOLD even much of Christendom
THEN KNOW and UNDERST AND that the wicked grow as do a green bay tree
And if a man dares to expose its evil , OR IN THEIR CASE its love , HE makes himself a prey
to their hat red .
THEN KNOW and UNDERSTAND that on that path
THE END WILL SURELY COME . IN such a generation
wherein even much of christendom did as did much of jerusalem
THEN KNOW and understand THAT BE THE LAST GENERATION and SUDDEN DESTRUCTION shall come upon them all
THOSE who loved a lie and had pleasure in unrighteousness
calling evil good and good evil
calling the words of GOD hate speech and yet calling GOD love
calling the gospel as being judgmental as other religoins now are brought into the fold
under the guise that GOD is fine with them .
THEY ARE DENYING JESUS , and THUS HAVE DENIED GOD by their love . THE DAY shall come
in a day and an hour unwares to man , which will swallow up ALL who loved the lie in destruction and perdition .
A g reat war has been raged by means of the mystery of inquity and that which is of anti ch rist
throughout the times
AND NOW at the end the upmost of this war shall be raged against the saints .
BUT ON THE DAY OF THE LORD IT WILL BE THEY WHO WAIL as the sheep be comforted

 

[amigo de christo]

GOD has never stopped Sending Holy Spirit filled Saints to the 'christians' to warn them of "It is Written"

The delusion i speak of and have long warned of
THOUGH IT WAS NOT I who warned first
CANNOT BE STOPPED .
But only ENDED ON THE DAY OF ALL MIGHTY GOD and OF THE LAMB
ALL things written
all things foretold MUST COME TO PASS .
THE KINGS will surrender all to the beast
The delusion sent cannot be stopped
but must be warned ag ainst . And all we can do is by grace ENDURE FAITHFUL unto the end
HE who loses his life in this world shall KEEP IT
HE who is a friend of the world is at enmity with GOD
He who conforms shall be cast out
HE who resists unto the end , BY FAITH IN CHRIST , shall be rewarded .
IN THIS LIFE we will not be loved
As t rue this has been throug hout all ages .
Saints will suffer tribulations at the hands of men
and many who even kill us will beleive they do the will of their love god for peace n sa fety .
BUT IN THE END it all flips . we shall be comf orted AN D THEY TORMENTED

 

[Zao is life]

Yes I do believe those things, amen.

Great!

There are those who are so deceived and carnal minded in their approach that I do doubt their salvation, that either they never knew Christ or that they have fallen away. Christendom is a big mission field of those needing the gospel and to come to Christ for real, and it would be wrong to affirm them and approach them as true believers when they need to know their true condition. But I don't doubt your salvation or David's....hope that I didn't come across that way.

Yeah I agree. I was talking to some JW's in the "Christian" debate forum (where JW's are allowed to attack the Trinity) and I did not give them the impression I thought they were saved - they got the opposite from me because I was so straight-forward with my thoughts about what they say (in my dealings in the past with JW's I realized it's the only language they understand - because they practice a "passive" type of arrogance).

There are many who haven't cottoned on to the spiritual way the Lord communicates, so I often will share that or remind just in case it is helpful to anyone reading, to encourage a "coming up higher", so to speak. It doesn't mean I doubt their salvation, although as I said, some seem SO deeply carnal minded and "deaf" it does make me question.

Thanks. I won't be so sensitive next time you do that in a reply to my post.

Amen, and faith is of the Spirit....they go hand in hand, so much so that I almost think of the two terms interchangeably.

I agree 100%. The one who believes has the witness in himself / herself (1 John 5:10). Otherwise we would not have faith in Christ.

I really hate how there is so much bickering and personal comments directed at others....it is so unpleasant, and not good fruit. I dont know if it is just me getting more sensitive as I get older, or does it seems there has been a lot more of it lately. But I think we may sometimes discern that there are things getting in the way of understanding, but even so, insults and flying verbal fisticuffs are not the right approach if anyone is to be helped.

It's true - and not just because you're getting older. I do the same "back" too often - and the whole thing has made us all sensitive enough to jump to conclusions even when no insult or "putting down" was meant - take my reply to your post earlier as an example.

It's unacceptable to Jesus.

I dont' mind answering. I read the bible prayerfully, in God's presence, so to speak, not like reading a novel or a textbook. And yes I do often thank and praise and give the Lord glory for understanding, at any time, before, during or after He gives it. And I sure do need Him to help my memory too these days, which He often does.

I thought so It's clear by your posts that you care about the words God gave to prophets and apostles and Psalmists (and whoever else penned the scriptures), and seek to correctly understand what you read.

 

[Lizbeth]

P.S.

Eschatology is very IMPORTANT to GOD and for us to know = "If it were not so HE would of told us"

Think TRUTH my Sister = Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:18-20

TRUTH = FIRE did NOT come down from Heaven and consume the Roman army is 70AD = this comes AFTER the 1,000 Years

Child like faith is Required in every word that proceeds from the Mouth of GOD

Brother, are you saying we are required to fully grasp all of scripture? And that you do? Isn't there an issue of only knowing in part and of seeing through a glass darkly?

All truth matters....all scripture matters, of course. But there are some things that are not foundational which we should not be dividing over. There are things that are a matter of growth, as well as the different graces/gifts given to each individually.

I will say though, one concern I have about belief in a future earthly millennial reign is that it has potential to lead souls astray, so in that respect it is important. It was unfortunately one reason Jesus was rejected by Israel....and they haven't changed their understanding.

 

[Zao is life]

I'm included in those who people call "Amillennial" (even though as I said, I dont' consider that to be an accurate term.)

Yeah I agree with that statement. This Christianeze terminoilogy is all messed up, IMO. If so-called 'Amillennialists' believe the millennium is now and precedes the return of Christ, then if someone slapped a label on it, it should have been 'Pre-return millennium'

Premillennialsm is actually post-return so how can it be pre-millennial? It's should be 'Post-return millennium', and 'Post-millennialism' is also 'Pre-return' with a different set of doctrines (no "shakes his head" smile to click on in these forums).

Christianeze is so confusing I often still have to Google certain terms used in the language. I always feel sorry for new Christians having to learn a new language - and wondering why.

 

[Lizbeth]

With that being said there is ONE thing we ought be very concerned about concering revelation .
and that is that one never adds to or takes from those words .
A clear example of this is seen IN HOW they air condition the lake of fire
and even say THAT THEY GET OUT in the end and are restored again .
IT NEVER SAYS THAT in that book . THAT right there would be ADDING TOO and TAKING from .
As far as the thousand years and etc . I BELIEVE IT , though i do not understand this .
One thing i have learned is , IF i do not understand something
THEN better it is that i dont ever try and teach as though I DO understand .
some things are harder to be understood .
WHILE some things by grace we understand quite quickly .
SO HERE IS what I KNOW TO BE SOLID AND T RUE .
ONLY JESUS SAVES , and if one beleives not , OH DEAR ITS THE LAKE OF FIRE for them .
AS it clearly says that ALL UNBELIEVERS , not might , BUT WILL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE OF FIRE .
SO what is real simple is
JESUS PREACHING TIME and to get this people into the bible to learn and to be reminded
OF HIM . cause i am afraid i have rather bad news , MANY follow another jesus and as YOU KNOW that one will not save them .

It's hard on a forum to tell the difference between teaching and discussing or trying things on for size sometimes though. Even if someone tries to qualify/clarify themselves, if you miss that post or comment, then one can easily misunderstand. Pitfalls of communicating on forums.

One thing I am confident of is that the thousand years spoken of in 2 Peter 3 is referring to the time of God's longsuffering that we are to account as salvation, so I will discuss that with confidence. I liken it to an age, not a literal thousand years. Now this part is me trying on for size: I wonder if for Israel that age (thousand years as it were) was until 70AD (and for the largely Gentile church and nations it is the age after that which we are still in). But I'm confident and will discuss with confidence that the early church in Israel of the apostle's time was in Israel's last days/end time back then, unless I see something that proves this wrong.

Mic 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. (the gospel was established with the coming of Christ in the first century, true?)

Act 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (happened at Pentecost in the first century true?)

2Ti 3:1
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. (yes, it was perilous in those days)

Heb 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (speaks for itself)

Jas 5:3
Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. (James was talking to the first century church back then, wasn’t he)

2Pe 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (already tied this to Jude, in a previous post, which was speaking of the exact same thing happening back then)

And here:

1Co 10:11

Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. (same context as 2 Peter 3 and Jude)

It sure seems like solid ground on these particular matters, so that is why I feel I can speak with confidence on them.

And in Revelation 5......the book that was sealed, which only the Lamb was worthy to loose its seals. What is the only book in the bible which prophecies were sealed? Daniel. And when was it to be unsealed? The time of the end. What does it mean to unseal/loose the seals? It means to fulfill the prophecies. Only the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Lamb of God was worthy to fulfill, unleash and pour out what was prophesied. And who were these things prophesied to (first)? Israel of course. Revelation was the last warning and heads-up to to the early church in Israel that these things were SOON to happen (no brainer), that they would be prepared for it, the fall of what had become Mystery Babylon....that great city. We need to put ourselves in Israel and the early church's shoes back then.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yeah I agree with that statement. This Christianeze terminoilogy is all messed up, IMO. If so-called 'Amillennialists' believe the millennium is now and precedes the return of Christ, then if someone slapped a label on it, it should have been 'Pre-return millennium'

Premillennialsm is actually post-return so how can it be pre-millennial? It's should be 'Post-return millennium', and 'Post-millennialism' is also 'Pre-return' with a different set of doctrines (no "shakes his head" smile to click on in these forums).

Christianeze is so confusing I often still have to Google certain terms used in the language. I always feel sorry for new Christians having to learn a new language - and wondering why.

I agree. :) "Dispensationalism" messes with my head too.

 

[Zao is life]

Okay, so that means you do believe that Revelation 20:11-15 occurs before Revelation 20:1-10

Yes.

which is what I was asking about. Obviously, I disagree with that. Not sure what more I can say about that without just repeating things that we've probably already discussed several times before.

You don't have to agree - but thanks for taking the time to try and understand what I believe (but was once again not explaining very well):

As for your reference to "the ages of the ages", which you equate with "endless cycles of time", what do you think is the difference between that and eternity? Isn't eternity basically endless time?

I don't know whether or not you believe that cycles of time involves ages in time - one age followed by another, followed by another - just as it does now. The ages of the ages involves one age followed by another, followed by another - just as it does now - cycles of time, which can only take place in time.

It's a whole subject on its own. I do not believe time exists "only because the universe exists" (that's scientific and only partly true).

I believe time exists because God exists and is always "becoming" - |the eternally becoming One" is part of what His name YHVH means.

- which is why the only moment that exists in the universe at the moment you are reading this, is the moment you are reading this. The future does not exist at this moment, neither does the past

- but this moment is always "becoming" the next moment, that's why even though the future does not exist at this moment, it will come.

The ages of the ages cannot exist without time, and as long as God exists, time exists - because God is always "becoming".

PS: I do not believe Revelation 10:6 means that time stops or ends. The NETfree translates that verse as I understand it: "There will be no further delay".

My mind is not fully closed even though I obviously very strongly believe that my current view about this topic is correct.

Which is fine because when what we believe is true then praise God,

and when what we believe is not true, then it's up to God to change our minds - at His own pace because He knows our pace.

But, in order to change my mind about anything you would need to make clear, convincing arguments. But, when it comes to this topic, I don't believe you come anywhere near doing that. With that said, I'll read what you have to say here and will respond if I think it would be fruitful to do so. Otherwise, I won't.

That's fine.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Revelation 20:1-3 refers to the thousand years, as does Revelation 20:4-6. Do you not see the thousands years referenced in Revelation 20:1-3 as being the same thousand years referenced in Revelation 20:4-6?

It's referring to the same thousand years, IMO. Hopefully you will have the patience and time to read this quick exercise.

Remove verses 4-6 from the text and see if it changes the flow:

1 Then I saw an angel descending from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the abyss and a huge chain.
2 He seized the dragon - the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan - and tied him up for a thousand years.
3 The angel then threw him into the abyss and locked and sealed it so that he could not deceive the nations until the one thousand years were finished. (After these things he must be released for a brief period of time.)

7 Now when the thousand years are finished, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to bring them together for the battle. They are as numerous as the grains of sand in the sea.
9 They went up on the broad plain of the earth and encircled the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and devoured them completely.
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever.

It does not change the flow - but once inserted into the text, it tells us when the thousand years commences

- but you don't believe it does, so I will leave it here by saying something else which, again, you will disagree with:

We know the timing for the commencement of the thousand years is contained within the in-between verses (Rev 20:4-6) because unlike the binding of Satan, Rev 20:4-6 does not exist in isolation from the rest of the book of Revelation:

Revelation 20:4-6 is linked to:

Rev 13:7-8 & Rev 13:15-18; Rev 14:9-13; Rev 15:2; and Rev 11:7-12.

That was very hard to follow, so it's hard to even comment on it. You have Revelation 20:11-15 occurring when Jesus returns, right? I think you see it as the same judgment described in Matthew 25:31-46?

Yes.

That means that all whose names are (not) written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire, which Jesus refers to as "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), when Jesus returns. Agree?

Yes - I inserted the word (not) in brackets because I know you accidentally omitted it.

-- Answering your other questions in my next reply to your post --

 

[Zao is life]

If so, then who exactly would be the ones that you think will populate the earth during the thousand years and later be destroyed by fire from heaven (Rev 20:9), keeping in mind that Paul said all believers will be changed to put on immortality when Jesus returns at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54)? Anyone who has an immortal body (immortal means living forever, never dying) can't be destroyed, so Revelation 20:9 must refer to fire coming down from heaven to earth to physically destroy living mortal people, not people with immortal bodies who can't die.

You clearly have a different view of immortality to me - but it makes no difference to Revelation 20:9

But let's talk about immortality quickly:

(IMO) Adam was immortal because had he not rebelled against the Word of God (in Whom is our life - John 1:4; John 5:26; Colossians 3:4; and 1 John 11:15 - our life is IN His Son),

then Adam would not have ever died - because until he rebelled against the Word of God, he was able to freely eat of the tree of life and live forever in the body God had created him with.

To live | be alive forever in a body that does not die = immortality.

But whether or not you agree with me about Adam losing his immortality through losing the eternal life that is the source of living forever

- makes no difference to Revelation 20:9.

In the beginning immediately following His completed creation - which was all very good - God did this:

He allowed such a thing as the testing of immortals in paradise.

- and you can leave the rest with me and as my opinion that you and almost all Premils consider weird and way off

- i.e - my opinion that there will indeed be such a testing when Satan is released again at the close of the millennium

- and there will be a rebellion against the Word of God on the part of those immortals mentioned in Rev 20:9 again - just as in Eden

- they are among those whose sins were covered by the blood of Christ, who had been resurrected with the saints, and who had experienced life with Christ

- the way Adam experienced life in the Garden of Eden when still having direct communion with God and God walking in the Garden.

IOW, they are among the (immortal) saints in the NHNE - paradise. BUT THEY ARE THOSE WHO WILL APOSTATIZE.

But the final consequence is not the same as the first time:

The result of Adam's sin was death - and in His mercy, God's grace was immediately made known (Genesis 3:15).

Jesus came, died in our place, and rose again from the dead.

It's not the same consequence that is mentioned as coming upon those who will rebel mentioned in Rev 20:9.

The immortality of humans that God created does not override God's ability to destroy anything He created with fire coming down from God out of heaven

- whether or not that means that they will go alive into the lake of fire - like the beast and false prophet did (Rev 19:20).

God is omnipotent and can do whatever He chooses in His judgment.

Admittedly, it's far easier for Premils to just believe that the thousand years in Rev 20 will be followed by the NHNE, than to even consider the possible validity of anything I said above;

- and it's far easier for Amils to just believe that the thousand years in Rev 20 is taking place now

- and will complete BEFORE the return of Christ

- than to question

(a) the validity of Amillennialiism's placing Rev 20:4-6 BEFORE the return of Christ

- as well as the validity of Amillennialim's placing of the binding of Satan - in terms of what is being metaphorically described in Rev 20:1-3- likewise BEFORE the return of Christ.

So I can only leave it at your opinion that what I have said above, is bizarre

- and almost all Premils would probably agree with you - I stand alone with this.

 

[Zao is life]

One thing I am confident of is that the thousand years spoken of in 2 Peter 3 is referring to the time of God's longsuffering that we are to account as salvation, so I will discuss that with confidence.

I agree. The context says it, IMO. I'm not Amil - but I do not believe Peter's mention of a thousand years in that passage has anything to do with Rev 20 - otherwise we are divorcing Peter's mention of a thousand years from the point he was making using that length of time.

I liken it to an age, not a literal thousand years. Now this part is me trying on for size: I wonder if for Israel that age (thousand years as it were) was until 70AD (and for the largely Gentile church and nations it is the age after that which we are still in). But I'm confident and will discuss with confidence that the early church in Israel of the apostle's time was in Israel's last days/end time back then, unless I see something that proves this wrong.

I don't believe Israel "ended". At the beginning of Rom 11 Paul said Israel continued - through its remnant

- but the tearing of the veil (circa AD 30) marked the end of the covenant relationship God had with Israel

- which was based on obedience to Mosaic law

- and the tearing of the veil marked the beginning of the New Covenant.

- Those who held onto the first covenant while rejecting the New Covenant, were broken off from God's election - long before 70 AD - because they no longer had a covenant relationship with God.

Israel did not come to an end. The Jews who did not believe, lost their identity with God's election - which remained only with the remnant who did believe. That's the olive tree Gentiles are grafted into.

Mic 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. (the gospel was established with the coming of Christ in the first century, true?)

YES!

-- Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. Then the Jews said, This temple was forty-six years building, and will you rear it up in three days?

But He spoke of the temple of His body. Therefore when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them, and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said. -- John 2:19-22

The mountain of the LORD's house

-- Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you shall neither worship the Father in this mountain nor yet at Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him. God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.

The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming, who is called Christ. When He has come, He will tell us all things. Jesus said to her, I AM, He speaking to you. -- John 4:21-26.

-- And He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall go out the Law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come and let us walk in the light of the LORD. -- Isaiah 2:2-5

Judging among the nations

-- And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

And all nations shall flow into it.

-- whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations | Gentiles? -- Romans 9:24

-- (as it has been written, "I have made you a father of many nations") --before God, whom he believed, who makes the dead live, and calls the things which do not exist as though they do exist. -- Romans 4:17

The mountain of the LORD's house. Exalted above the hills.

-- But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. -- Hebrews 12:22-25.

And more:

Act 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (happened at Pentecost in the first century true?)

2Ti 3:1
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. (yes, it was perilous in those days)

Heb 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (speaks for itself)

I don't agree with this:

What does it mean to unseal/loose the seals? It means to fulfill the prophecies.

No one ever sealed a blank scroll. The events are written about in the scroll.

Christ's Revelation - He reveals - opens the seals - opens our understanding to what is written in the scroll.

Each seal tells us something about what is written in the scroll.

And who were these things prophesied to (first)? Israel of course. Revelation was the last warning and heads-up to to the early church in Israel that these things were SOON to happen (no brainer),

It's Preterist doctrine you are expressing in the above statement - which IMO not a "no-brainer" at all but is rather an extremely shortsighted view of who / what Israel is and of what Jesus's intention was with His Revelation.

 

[David in NJ]

I agree. The context says it, IMO. I'm not Amil - but I do not believe Peter's mention of a thousand years in that passage has anything to do with Rev 20 - otherwise we are divorcing Peter's mention of a thousand years from the point he was making using that length of time.



I don't believe Israel "ended". At the beginning of Rom 11 Paul said Israel continued - through its remnant

- but the tearing of the veil (circa AD 30) marked the end of the covenant relationship God had with Israel

- which was based on obedience to Mosaic law

- and the tearing of the veil marked the beginning of the New Covenant.

- Those who held onto the first covenant while rejecting the New Covenant, were broken off from God's election - long before 70 AD - because they no longer had a covenant relationship with God.

Israel did not come to an end. The Jews who did not believe, lost their identity with God's election - which remained only with the remnant who did believe. That's the olive tree Gentiles are grafted into.



YES!

-- Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. Then the Jews said, This temple was forty-six years building, and will you rear it up in three days?

But He spoke of the temple of His body. Therefore when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them, and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said. -- John 2:19-22

The mountain of the LORD's house

-- Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you shall neither worship the Father in this mountain nor yet at Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him. God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.

The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming, who is called Christ. When He has come, He will tell us all things. Jesus said to her, I AM, He speaking to you. -- John 4:21-26.

-- And He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall go out the Law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come and let us walk in the light of the LORD. -- Isaiah 2:2-5

Judging among the nations

-- And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

And all nations shall flow into it.

-- whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations | Gentiles? -- Romans 9:24

-- (as it has been written, "I have made you a father of many nations") --before God, whom he believed, who makes the dead live, and calls the things which do not exist as though they do exist. -- Romans 4:17

The mountain of the LORD's house. Exalted above the hills.

-- But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. -- Hebrews 12:22-25.

And more:



I don't agree with this:



No one ever sealed a blank scroll. The events are written about in the scroll.

Christ's Revelation - He reveals - opens the seals - opens our understanding to what is written in the scroll.

Each seal tells us something about what is written in the scroll.



It's Preterist doctrine you are expressing in the above statement - which IMO not a "no-brainer" at all but is rather an extremely shortsighted view of who / what Israel is and of what Jesus's intention was with His Revelation.

but I do not believe Peter's mention of a thousand years in that passage has anything to do with Rev 20 - otherwise we are divorcing Peter's mention of a thousand years from the point he was making using that length of time.

 

[ewq1938]

I will say though, one concern I have about belief in a future earthly millennial reign is that it has potential to lead souls astray, so in that respect it is important.

How so?

 

[Lizbeth]

I agree. The context says it, IMO. I'm not Amil - but I do not believe Peter's mention of a thousand years in that passage has anything to do with Rev 20 - otherwise we are divorcing Peter's mention of a thousand years from the point he was making using that length of time.

I believe we see in 2 Peter 3 a huge hint of what the thousand years of Christ's reign is.......this age of grace......this age of God's longsuffering which we are to account as salvation. Thousand years is also spoken of in the old testament as a watch in the night.........as we are to be watching in this age for the Lord's return.

I don't believe Israel "ended". At the beginning of Rom 11 Paul said Israel continued - through its remnant

- but the tearing of the veil (circa AD 30) marked the end of the covenant relationship God had with Israel

- which was based on obedience to Mosaic law

- and the tearing of the veil marked the beginning of the New Covenant.

- Those who held onto the first covenant while rejecting the New Covenant, were broken off from God's election - long before 70 AD - because they no longer had a covenant relationship with God.

Israel did not come to an end. The Jews who did not believe, lost their identity with God's election - which remained only with the remnant who did believe. That's the olive tree Gentiles are grafted into.

The old covenant is said in Hebrews to have been "old and obsolete and fading away".....there was a kind of transitional phase from Jesus until 70AD where the Lord was giving Israel time/space to repent, but instead she sadly only waxed worse until judgment came.. Israel and Jerusalem of the old covenant age certainly was destroyed/ended and the old covenant was completely finished with then as far as God was concerned.. Of course I agree there is the Israel of God which is believing Israel which believing Gentiles are grafted into. Now in the end of this age, interestingly, Israel after the flesh has become a nation again but still unbelieving.

YES!

-- Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. Then the Jews said, This temple was forty-six years building, and will you rear it up in three days?

But He spoke of the temple of His body. Therefore when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them, and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said. -- John 2:19-22

The mountain of the LORD's house

-- Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you shall neither worship the Father in this mountain nor yet at Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him. God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.

The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming, who is called Christ. When He has come, He will tell us all things. Jesus said to her, I AM, He speaking to you. -- John 4:21-26.

-- And He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall go out the Law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come and let us walk in the light of the LORD. -- Isaiah 2:2-5

Judging among the nations

-- And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

And all nations shall flow into it.

-- whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations | Gentiles? -- Romans 9:24

-- (as it has been written, "I have made you a father of many nations") --before God, whom he believed, who makes the dead live, and calls the things which do not exist as though they do exist. -- Romans 4:17

The mountain of the LORD's house. Exalted above the hills.

-- But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. -- Hebrews 12:22-25.

And more:

Amen, we agree, that scripture was fulfilled when Jesus came and brought the gospel.

And it was foretelling that this would occur "in the last days"......the early church got their concept of the last days from the OT.

I don't agree with this:

ok. We've all imbibed teachings concerning the last days meaning the end of this age and need fresh eyes to see that it applied first to Israel of the first century.

No one ever sealed a blank scroll. The events are written about in the scroll.

Christ's Revelation - He reveals - opens the seals - opens our understanding to what is written in the scroll.

Each seal tells us something about what is written in the scroll.

I'm saying the book of Daniel was sealed, or maybe particularly the prophecies concerning the end. So not a blank scroll by any means. And the seals are seen being loosed, fulfilled, poured out, in Revelation. And spoken of with more details that we don't see in Daniel. Yes I agree they are also revealed in Revelation.

It's Preterist doctrine you are expressing in the above statement - which IMO not a "no-brainer" at all but is rather an extremely shortsighted view of who / what Israel is and of what Jesus's intention was with His Revelation.

I would be considered a partial preterist I think. And I believe a key to understanding Rev is by rightly dividing what applied to Israel first and what applies to the Gentiles. Principle of "to the Jew first, then the Gentile"....things that were prophesied and happened to Israel were for our ensample and admonition.. There seems to be a lot of overlap, some things apply to both, and some things apply to one or the other. I think of it as being like the woof and waffle of the weave of a tapestry....I've heard people speak in terms of "dual prophecies".applied to some prophecies in general.

 

[Lizbeth]

How so?

Did I forget to explain? A wrong belief in a future earthly utopia led by an earthly political king is one thing that caused the Jews/Israel to reject Jesus. And it has potential to lead souls to the acceptance of a false political/military messiah. Today's Israel is still looking for an earthly fulfillment, as are many in the church.

 

[amigo de christo]

It's hard on a forum to tell the difference between teaching and discussing or trying things on for size sometimes though. Even if someone tries to qualify/clarify themselves, if you miss that post or comment, then one can easily misunderstand. Pitfalls of communicating on forums.

One thing I am confident of is that the thousand years spoken of in 2 Peter 3 is referring to the time of God's longsuffering that we are to account as salvation, so I will discuss that with confidence. I liken it to an age, not a literal thousand years. Now this part is me trying on for size: I wonder if for Israel that age (thousand years as it were) was until 70AD (and for the largely Gentile church and nations it is the age after that which we are still in). But I'm confident and will discuss with confidence that the early church in Israel of the apostle's time was in Israel's last days/end time back then, unless I see something that proves this wrong.

Mic 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. (the gospel was established with the coming of Christ in the first century, true?)

Act 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (happened at Pentecost in the first century true?)

2Ti 3:1
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. (yes, it was perilous in those days)

Heb 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (speaks for itself)

Jas 5:3
Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. (James was talking to the first century church back then, wasn’t he)

2Pe 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (already tied this to Jude, in a previous post, which was speaking of the exact same thing happening back then)

And here:

1Co 10:11

Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. (same context as 2 Peter 3 and Jude)

It sure seems like solid ground on these particular matters, so that is why I feel I can speak with confidence on them.

And in Revelation 5......the book that was sealed, which only the Lamb was worthy to loose its seals. What is the only book in the bible which prophecies were sealed? Daniel. And when was it to be unsealed? The time of the end. What does it mean to unseal/loose the seals? It means to fulfill the prophecies. Only the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Lamb of God was worthy to fulfill, unleash and pour out what was prophesied. And who were these things prophesied to (first)? Israel of course. Revelation was the last warning and heads-up to to the early church in Israel that these things were SOON to happen (no brainer), that they would be prepared for it, the fall of what had become Mystery Babylon....that great city. We need to put ourselves in Israel and the early church's shoes back then.

Its all about to hit its upmost peak hour sister .
The delusion i
have long been warning all about cannot be stopped . And it has grown massive even since i began to warn years back .
Warn all that there is no hope in the govts of men , in these earthen kingdoms , in the flesh , in natural jersualem
This delusion , even the more i warn the faster it grows sister . It just cannot be stopped .
Soon the crusades against any and against all that did not conform to its lie from its god of love , WHICH IS NOT GOD or LOVE ,
will begin in mass against the saints . Fear not man , not death . JESUS is our hope
and Because of HIM we shall never die . Many will bleed but our souls shall live forever with the KING who saved us .
Ecumeincalism is no joke , nor to be taken lightly . IT has to warned against
and JESUS has to preached . FOR JESUS ALONE is the only hope one has .