Let's examine Revelation 20:4 yet again.

[Lizbeth]

one thing i do know .
WHEN even asked by the apostels
LORD will you at this time RESTORE the KINGDOM back to israel
HE said ITS NOT FOR YOU TO KNOW the times and the seasons
RATHER PREACH the gospel .
SO i dont worry over when or how this thousand year rule will come .
I SAY we simply preach JESUS
AND PREACH THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM now .
For now we know only in part .
BUT THEN shall we KNOW EVEN as WE ARE KNOWN.
IN o ther words i am not going to try and teach what i m yself do not fully g rasp .
I will only say BELEIVE what is written .
Let us focus on spreading what WE DO KNOW and not so much about speculation on what we do not YET know .
Cause you and david keep on going at this t hing .
What IF IT BE you who is wrong . HAVE you ever considered that .
THE POINT IS
We dont fully understand it sister . I do my best to only try and teach WHAT I ABSOLUTELY KNOW is TRUE .
I do try and be careful NOT to teach what i think or suspect . Just trying to help us all sister .

Well, as I was just saying, I believe it's important that we not be expecting and setting our hopes and affections on anything earthly....that will ensnare souls. Old covenant was all about earthly blessings and new covenant is all about heavenly/spiritual blessings. So yes, I agree we do need to preach the heavenly kingdom, not earthly.

 

[Lizbeth]

Good Morning,

Lizbeth, you keep saying you believe God's words but then you deny them - why???

It's His rightly divided word we need to believe do you not agree? When Jesus was talking about leaven, did He commend His disciples for believing He was talking about bread?

 

[David in NJ]

Well, as I was just saying, I believe it's important that we not be expecting and setting our hopes and affections on anything earthly....that will ensnare souls. Old covenant was all about earthly blessings and new covenant is all about heavenly/spiritual blessings. So yes, I agree we do need to preach the heavenly kingdom, not earthly.

Lizbeth, you must read Revelation and you must not dare touch a single word to rearrange for your misunderstanding.

But I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned the so-called deep things of Satan: I will place no further burden upon you than to hold fast to what you have until I come.
And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery —just as I have received authority from My Father.
And I will give him the morning star.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

 

[Davidpt]

2 groups in the body of Christ in view, A) and B). Group A) = the profitable servants Christ, the wise servants of Christ. Group B) = the unprofitable servants of Christ, the unwise servants of Christ. None of the following has anything to do with unbelieving Jews in the first century nor unbelieving Jews in any century since unbelieving Jews have no part in the body of Christ.. Even the sheep and goats judgment doesn't involve unbelieving Jews.


Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

A) 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

B) 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 A) And five of them were wise, B) and five were foolish.


A) Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.


B) Matthew 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:46 B) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: A) but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Lizbeth]

You have said things that ar econtray to Scripture and which are in agreement with the false doctrine of 'amil' and 'sls'.

We are here to help you by always directing you back to "It is written"

I don't know everything that Amils believe or teach (don't know who sls are)......I've never looked into them other than reading what some have written on this and a previous forum. Maybe you have been lumping me in with them as a group and assuming I believe everything they teach, and many of them believe we are in Satan's little season now...?

 

[ewq1938]

I suppose they assumed the Messiah would rule whenever He showed up.

Right, but the rule was future. Today and for centuries there are modern Pharisees that think the Messiah has come and that the Mill rule is right now but those same people are still wrong. It's still in the future. The rule over the nations (Rev 19, 20) does not start until after the second coming.

But the point is they were expecting an earthly messiah-king who would liberate them militarily from the Romans and rule Israel as an earthly kingdom and usher in a golden age of earthly peace that could be observed with the natural eyes, not a spiritual/heavenly inward peace and kingdom. Jesus tried to correct that wrong understanding when He said the kingdom does not come with observation that you may say lo here it is or there, but is within us.

Premils already believe in that inward spiritual kingdom. That is not the rule over the nations with a rod of iron that happens in the Mill.

Yes, the Amil point of view is that Christ is ruling and reigning now in this age, as King of kings and Lord of lords. He testified right after His resurrection two thousand or so years ago that all power and authority in heaven and in earth had been given to Him.

But is not being fully used as we also see:

Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.


That happens only after he returns.

His kingdom is not by sight, but by faith. And He was cruelly mocked and abused by the Roman soldiers for this, who rammed a crown of thorns on His head. Jesus rules and reigns now in the hearts of His people who are soldiers of His heavenly/spiritual kingdom. and are overcoming, subduing, conquering and taking more ground for Him from the Enemy. Israel was wrongly expecting earthly peace,

No, they simply thought the Messiah would do it right away rather than in the FUTURE. It is still in the future and anyone thinking it's now is just a modern version of the same old errant thinking.

and that is why Jesus said "do not think I came to bring peace but a sword", ie, a spiritual sword involving spiritual warfare....His kingdom is at war with the earthly because the earthly opposes and rejects His kingdom.rule...they refuse to let Him rule over them as scripture says.

They will when he returns and they won't have a choice.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You asked some great questions needing answers to if one insists the holy place was pertaining to the 2nd temple in the first century before it was destroyed.

I still insist that it is absurd, the fact 2 Thessalonians 2:4 has to be fulfilled before Christ can return, that Jesus just ignored 2 Thessalonians 2:4 altogether and only focused on the 2nd temple. That's what some of these interpreters around here would have us believe, apparently. That Jesus never had a clue about 2 Thessalonians 2:4 though He predicted His 2nd coming in the Discourse. And so what if 2 Thessalonians 2:4 had not been written yet when Jesus gave His Discourse. That doesn't mean what 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is involving is not written in the OT, though. Paul wasn't just coming up with stuff out of nowhere.

I'll tell you what is absurd. The idea that only Luke recorded the answer to the disciples question about when the temple buildings would be destroyed, as you believe. It is absolutely absurd to claim, as you do, that Matthew and Mark did not record Jesus's answer to that question.

Tell me, at the time when Jesus was giving the Olivet Discourse, was the physical temple still considered the holy place by the disciples? If He had referenced the holy place in some other context besides what we see in Matthew 24:15-22, would the disciples have understood Him to have been talking about the physical temple at that time? Yes, right? Does that mean it had to continue being considered the holy place if He said something about it in relation to the future? No. Why would that be the case?

If there was a prophecy saying that The White House would be destroyed in the future, but it's name was changed to The White Mansion before it was destroyed, would the prophecy not be fulfilled when the building was destroyed just because the name of the building was changed?

 

[ewq1938]

Amen. The more I think about it, the more I believe it's important that we get our eyes and affections off anything to do with this earth. Our hopes are to be above, not on this earth. It's a snare to have our hopes and focus on things to do with this earth. We're all going to die, even those who are alive at His coming, the seed of the natural body has to die in order to put on immortality

That's not what the bible says, where is specifically says the living survivors do not die but are changed. Now the saved die and go to heaven but at the second coming that no longer happens and life for eternity is upon the Earth. For a little over a thousand years on this current one, but after the GWTJ a new Earth will be inhabited by all including the full Trinity.

 

[ewq1938]

This is the verse I was referring to:

Heb 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

So it's apparent that the old covenant hadn't yet vanished away when this was written.

But you are forgetting that it is dead and rotting back then. Just because the carcass is not fully gone doesn't mean anyone should be partaking of it, since it weas utterly disgusting in the symbology.

 

[Lizbeth]

one thing i do know .
WHEN even asked by the apostels
LORD will you at this time RESTORE the KINGDOM back to israel
HE said ITS NOT FOR YOU TO KNOW the times and the seasons
RATHER PREACH the gospel .
SO i dont worry over when or how this thousand year rule will come .
I SAY we simply preach JESUS
AND PREACH THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM now .
For now we know only in part .
BUT THEN shall we KNOW EVEN as WE ARE KNOWN.
IN o ther words i am not going to try and teach what i m yself do not fully g rasp .
I will only say BELEIVE what is written .
Let us focus on spreading what WE DO KNOW and not so much about speculation on what we do not YET know .
Cause you and david keep on going at this t hing .
What IF IT BE you who is wrong . HAVE you ever considered that .
THE POINT IS
We dont fully understand it sister . I do my best to only try and teach WHAT I ABSOLUTELY KNOW is TRUE .
I do try and be careful NOT to teach what i think or suspect . Just trying to help us all sister .

The disciples at the time they asked Jesus about Israel still did not have much understanding of spiritual things....they were still newbies and the Holy Spirit had not yet been given, but afterwards I'm sure He began to remind them of all the things that Jesus said and give them understanding of those things, which would have included what Jesus said about His kingdom not being of this world one would expect.

Just think, where do we see in any of the new testament writings of the apostles any mention of a future earthly kingdom that Christ would rule...I can't think where they even alluded to such a thing even briefly in the epistles, but if you know of any place please refresh my memory. The only place it is mentioned in the new testament is when you get to Revelation and that is highly allegorical and hard to understand and depends on how you interpret it. The apostles were never looking at or directing our gaze towards anything earthly at all, but heavenly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

2 groups in the body of Christ in view, A) and B). Group A) = the profitable servants Christ, the wise servants of Christ. Group B) = the unprofitable servants of Christ, the unwise servants of Christ. None of the following has anything to do with unbelieving Jews in the first century nor unbelieving Jews in any century since unbelieving Jews have no part in the body of Christ.. Even the sheep and goats judgment doesn't involve unbelieving Jews.


Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

A) 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

B) 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 A) And five of them were wise, B) and five were foolish.


A) Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.


B) Matthew 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:46 B) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: A) but the righteous into life eternal.

You ignore that Jesus also sometimes put all people into two groups, such as when He said "He who is not with me is against me" (Matthew 12:30). All people are either with Jesus or against Him. The sheep in Matthew 25:31-46 are with Him (all believers are His sheep - John 10) and the goats are against Him. That passage describes the judgment of all people, including all of the resurrected dead who Jesus said will be resurrected at the same hour (John 5:28-29). It's ludicrous to think that unbelievers will be cast into the everlasting lake of fire on more than one occasion. Jesus made it clear that they will be cast there when He comes again with His angels. So, that means Revelation 20:11-15 will occur when Jesus returns and not 1,000+ years later.

Also, Revelation 11:15-18 indicates that the time when the dead will be judged will occur at the seventh trumpet and that is when Jesus will return. According to Revelation 20:11-15, the time when the dead will be judged is after the thousand years (and Satan's little season), so that places Christ's return just before Revelation 20:11-15 occurs.

 

[ewq1938]

Just think, where do we see in any of the new testament writings of the apostles any mention of a future earthly kingdom that Christ would rule...

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Amill claims the opposite, that the Kingdom is of this world. Christ disagrees.


Christ knew his kingdom and reign here starts when he returned at the 7th trump.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[David in NJ]

I don't know everything that Amils believe or teach (don't know who sls are)......I've never looked into them other than reading what some have written on this and a previous forum. Maybe you have been lumping me in with them as a group and assuming I believe everything they teach, and many of them believe we are in Satan's little season now...?

sls = satan's little season
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Do you believe this?
TRUTH = John 18:35-36
Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered You to me. What have You done?”

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Amill claims the opposite, that the Kingdom is of this world. Christ disagrees.

This is a blatant misrepresentation of Amill. Amills do NOT claim that His kingdom is of this world. We claim it is not of this world, just as Jesus said.

You obviously don't understand what Jesus said when He said His kingdom is not of this world. He wasn't saying that His kingdom was not in this world. He was saying the origin of His kingdom was not of this evil world, but rather that it is from heaven. That's why He sometimes called His kingdom the kingdom of heaven even though we are in His kingdom now while on the earth.

Jesus said that He was not of this world and that His followers are not of this world. Does that mean He was saying He was not in the world and that His followers are not in the world? Of course not. So, your view that His kingdom not being of the world means His kingdom is not in the world is absolutely false.

Scripture teaches that we are in His kingdom now.

Colossians 1:12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

Christ knew his kingdom and reign here starts when he returned at the 7th trump.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

That is talking about when God the Father begins to reign with His Son at His side for eternity in the new heavens and new earth. Notice there that it talks about not just Christ, but also the Father reigning. That will occur when Jesus comes again and delivers the kingdom to the Father, as Paul taught will happen in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

sls = satan's little season
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Do you believe this?
TRUTH = John 18:35-36
Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered You to me. What have You done?”

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

Do you understand it? How do you interpret that?

 

[Lizbeth]

That's not what the bible says, where is specifically says the living survivors do not die but are changed. Now the saved die and go to heaven but at the second coming that no longer happens and life for eternity is upon the Earth. For a little over a thousand years on this current one, but after the GWTJ a new Earth will be inhabited by all including the full Trinity.

Like Enoch, translated that he should not see death..? ok yes, thanks, I was thinking of the scripture in 1 Cor 15 that says the body is not quickened except it die. In any case the point stands that we will not have any need of this earth when our bodies are glorified and no longer earthly...as Jesus said we will be like the angels.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Like Enoch, translated that he should not see death..?

There is more than one way to interpret that event.

 

[David in NJ]

Do you understand it? How do you interpret that?

No interpretation necessary = It is exactly as JESUS Stated

 

[Hillsage]

There is more than one way to interpret that event.

AMEN.
HEB 11:5 By faith Enoch was TRANSLATED that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Was not ENOCH a "man"?

JOH 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Even the Heb 11:5 verse which so many use, to claim ENOCH did go to heaven, comes from the FAITH chapter in Hebrews. Enoch is in the list with ALL those of renowned faith. And yet what is the summation for ALL who are in that Hebrews 11:5 list?????

HEB 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

If interested I can share more or just what "translated" meant in the NT.

 

[Hiddenthings]

AMEN.
HEB 11:5 By faith Enoch was TRANSLATED that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Was not ENOCH a "man"?

JOH 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Even the Heb 11:5 verse which so many use, to claim ENOCH did go to heaven, comes from the FAITH chapter in Hebrews. Enoch is in the list with ALL those of renowned faith. And yet what is the summation for ALL who are in that Hebrews 11:5 list?????

HEB 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

If interested I can share more or just what "translated" meant in the NT.

The issue is a lack of careful reading of the Word which Christians today are not good at.

To see death of natural causes is different to not seeing death (taken) and put to sleep.