Ummm ... people still die. My mother died just this year, so I can tell you first hand that DEATH is still with us.
What do you make of Lazarus and the Rich Man ... who had use for a "heaven or hell" even before Jesus was raised?
LIMITED ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)
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What do you make of Lazarus and the Rich Man ... who had use for a "heaven or hell" even before Jesus was raised?
Study Isaiah 53 and you will see it fits perfectly well with reformed doctrine.
Christ dies for the people of God, which is to whom this is written, it is not written to the unbelieving world of men that God knows will never believe in Christ.
Words such as 'our' and 'we' and 'sheep' make the point.
There are people who are not His sheep.
Christ came to find and collect the lost sheep of the house of Israel, to make them one flock with one Great Shepherd to lead them
Christ does NOT pray for the world, read John 17.
Christ shall see His seed, that is the children of God and be satisfied.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 [r]He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied
Notice here that HE BORE the SIN of MANY, it does not say all.
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the [s]spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no [a]form or [b]comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no [c]beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and [d]rejected by men,
A Man of [e]sorrows and acquainted with [f]grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our [g]griefs
And carried our [h]sorrows;
Yet we [i]esteemed Him stricken,
[j]Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded[k] for our transgressions,
He was [l]bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes[m] we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord [n]has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from [o]prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And [p]they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to [q]bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 [r]He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the [s]spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.
Christ dies for the people of God, which is to whom this is written, it is not written to the unbelieving world of men that God knows will never believe in Christ.
Words such as 'our' and 'we' and 'sheep' make the point.
There are people who are not His sheep.
Christ came to find and collect the lost sheep of the house of Israel, to make them one flock with one Great Shepherd to lead them
Christ does NOT pray for the world, read John 17.
Christ shall see His seed, that is the children of God and be satisfied.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 [r]He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied
Notice here that HE BORE the SIN of MANY, it does not say all.
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the [s]spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no [a]form or [b]comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no [c]beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and [d]rejected by men,
A Man of [e]sorrows and acquainted with [f]grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our [g]griefs
And carried our [h]sorrows;
Yet we [i]esteemed Him stricken,
[j]Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded[k] for our transgressions,
He was [l]bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes[m] we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord [n]has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from [o]prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And [p]they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to [q]bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 [r]He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the [s]spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.
These here also are only for the people foreknown to God as HIS people, that is those who will know Him
5 But He was wounded[k] for our transgressions,
He was [l]bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes[m] we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord [n]has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
The unbelieving world has no peace, there is no peace for the wicked, and they are not spiritually healed.
Only we are His sheep.
5 But He was wounded[k] for our transgressions,
He was [l]bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes[m] we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord [n]has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
The unbelieving world has no peace, there is no peace for the wicked, and they are not spiritually healed.
Only we are His sheep.
- Psalm 95:7
For He is our God, And we are the people of His pasture, And the sheep of His hand. Today, if you will hear Hisvoice:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - Psalm 100:3
Know that the Lord, He is God; It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves; We are His people and the sheep of His pasture.
BreadOfLife
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Next time, if you have something to say – just say it.
No need to enter into on a labyrinth of literature to make your point.
I explained that in the earlier post. But...God did not abolish death in this life. He did not abolish sin either. It becomes a test of faithfulness in this dispensation. Death was permanent under Adam. You mother, if Christ was not promised and never came would cease to exist. There is no eternity. So, your mother died so that the mortal body which is the home of sin, dies as well. So that in the last day she will be resurrected to life, incorruptible, and immortal.
The judgement takes place and a person is either judged faithful or unfaithful.
You lack in theology. From Gen 3:15 God gave us hope of a Messiah to come to correct the fall. God was not going to permit His creation to be eternally under the power of Satan who has the power of death and sin.
So, all through the OT we have the concept of Hades, Everyone who died, their souls would go to Hades. This is why Christ descended into Hades to take captive those held captive by death. That defeat bound Satan during this so-called Church dispensation. The second Christ arose, Satan knew he had been defeated. Now he is in a war with Christ over the souls of men. Man will choose life or death, just as Adam did in the beginning, but this one is final.
This is why God established the animal sacrifices for Israel, for the forgiveness of sin.
In the NT we have the idea of Paradise. The place where both believers and unbelievers go but are somehow separated. That is NOT our final home. Scripture is clear that all things will be made new, a new heaven and a new earth. It does not describe or tell us just where or what hell would be.
Hell is a spiritual separation from God. It does not mean physical separation since those who are eternally in hell are still creatures and man's immortality was given to us by grace, thus it must be maintained by God. Just like now, if God would retract His grace, thus universe would evaporate into nothingness. We are not immortal like God.
Isaiah 53 "For the transgressions of My people He was stricken."
The same theme as what He says here,
John 10
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a [a]hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
Do not be faithless, but believe !
The same theme as what He says here,
John 10
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a [a]hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
Do not be faithless, but believe !
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
You need to read your bible and look up the original Greek words and their definitions.
Atonement is the removal of sins which happens at the moment of salvation when we repent. Daily forgiveness in our walk occurs when we acknowledge our sins.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Wrong!
Propitiation allows atonement to take place.
Atonement is for individuals and not he universe.
Jesus death excluded all other methods of approach to God- that is why He alone is the propitiation or only acceptable sacrifice that counts. that is accomplished for all.
Receiving the atonement occurs when one receives by faith the death and resurrection of Jesus as the only payment for all their sins.
BreadOfLife
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Propitiation is appeasement – It is satisfaction.
Atonement is to make reparation – to pay off a balance.
Jesus did this for ALL people in history – NOT just a limited number.
The difference between those who will be saved and those who won’t be is FORGIVENESS.
Forgiveness can only be achieved through repentance and Baptism.
Forgiveness requires out cooperation.
Scripture disagrees with you. Atonement is not for individuals. If it was, then we would not have needed Christ. We could be our own sacrifice, or expiate or atone for our sins. Where do you read that in scripture. The Atonement of Christ makes justification by faith possible. Atonement means - to make one, to reconcile
This is correct. God was reconciling the world to God, Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19, Eph 1:10, Eph 2:13-16. He is the sacrifice for sin.
When we believe that Christ saved us from death and sin and we repent/confess our sins, we are justified by that faith. Meaning Christ did it for us because we could not.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Propitiation the appeasement or acceptable sacrifice.
Atonement is the removal of the debt of sin.
they are not the same and only propitiation is universal. Jesus is the acceptable sacrifice for the whole world.
but only those who accept Jesus death and resurrection receive the atonement or debt actually being paid. It is a potential for the world but not an actual. that is what is meant by limited atonement. Only those who receive Christ receive the atonement applied to them.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
You do not read well. Atonement is for individuals and Hebrews shows only the blood of Jesus atones for ones sins. It is not a groupie thing but an individual thing.
The propitiation (or Jesus sacrifice) makes the atonement possible.
Correct. When Jesus died He became the only acceptable sacrifice (propitiation) god accepts.
Only those who receive Christ by faith receive the atonement (reconciliation w/ God and removal of our sin debt.
We recieve the atonement by faith. The world does not have atonement . Read romans 3 and 5
BreadOfLife
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Jesus was the propitiation of ALL sin for ALL time and the debt had been removed.
BUT – it ONLY apples to those who have repented and been Baptized.
The ticket into Heaven had been purchased – for EVERYONE.
BUT - NOT everyone will accept that ticket.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that WHOEVER believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
1 Tim. 2:2-3
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, WHO WANTS ALL PEOPLE TO BE SAVED and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
God wants ALL to be saved – NOT all will choose that path.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Once again you are confusing propitiation with atonement. They are two different things.
Yes Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the World . His death is the potential for removing teh sin debt of teh world and only becomes actual in an individual when they receive Jesus by faith.
JOhn 3:16 is the perfect verse that shows Atonement is limited to only those who receive HIm.
Propitiation is universal , Atonement is not!
BreadOfLife
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Limited Atonement, as Calvin taught was for a select number of predestined people.
That is what I am arguing against.
He taught that God actually created some for eternal damnation and others for salvation. This is heresy, according to Scripture.
God WILLS the salvation of ALL people (1 Tim. 2:3-4) - but NOT all people will be saved.
Never stated it was a groupie thing. It is a drop of blood that redeemed the world. Christ reconciled the world. Made the world and mankind specifically right with God. That is atonement. The Atonement was to God. Scripture NEVER uses the word atonement in relation to man's response.
The following words all have the same meaning. Redeem, justify, reconcile, atone, righteous. They all mean to make right, But the context is important and scripture ONLY uses atonement in reference to what Christ accomplished for or to God. It never uses the word in relation to man making himself right with God. What does justification by faith mean? It means that we can simply believe that Christ died and rose again for us/mankind. We could not do what Christ did, so the only requirement is that we believe this Truth and we become justified by that faith. Part of that believing is repenting/confessing our sins. Thus we are made right with God.
It makes forgiveness possible. Christ does not die every time you confess your sins in order to atone for them.
Which is the atonement. You forget that there are two parts to the Atonement, death and sin.
A believer is justified by faith or as Paul states in II Cor 5:20 we are to reconcile ourselves to God. We don't atone ourselves to God.
What do you mean by a sin debt?
And Faith comes with the atonement, Christ is the atonement Rom 8:32
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
And the 'us all' in that verse is not the unbelieving world, it is only for the believing who are in Christ. All us believers.
Isaiah 53 "For the transgressions of My people He was stricken."
He was delivered up to save the people of God.
As the angel sent from God tells Joseph,
Matthew 1:21
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
Maybe you dont understand, Faith/Believing is given with the atoning death of Christ, so all for whom He atoned for, died for shall believe. They are not born believers, but if Christ died for them, they will become believers, but prior to that, they are born unbelievers. You must believe Christ didnt die for unbelievers, if you believe that, thats nonsense, thats like saying Christ didnt die for sinners..
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