LIMITED ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)

[atpollard]

(I did a search and it seems to have been a while since there was a topic dedicated to Limited Atonement.)

There are different theories about REDEMPTION.

We all, if we are Christian, believe that Jesus Christ died to redeem.

Beyond that, different people teach a different NATURE of the atonement and a different DESIGN of the redemption. With what follows, I propose to lay out in clear and logical terms how THEIR view is wrong and OUR view is correct. Nothing more and nothing less.

PART I: THEM​

THEY claim that Jesus Christ did not die with the intent to save any particular person. When Jesus died, that death did not, all alone and completely by itself, secure the salvation of any specific living human being beyond any shadow of a doubt. THEY teach that Jesus Christ died to make salvation possible for all men and available to all men … that because of Christ’s work of redemption, any man who pleases may obtain eternal life by doing something else.

If THEY are willing to be honest, then THEY will be forced to admit that IF no man was willing to give way and voluntarily surrender to God’s grace, then Christ’s atonement would have saved no one. THEY must admit that in their belief there is no PARTICULARITY in the atonement of Christ for one individual over another. According to THEM, Jesus Christ died on the cross for Judas in hell as much as for Peter in heaven. THEY believe that for every person who is consigned to the eternal fires of hell, there was a redemption made that was every bit as real, and was identical to, the redemption made for every person who stands before the throne in heaven.

PART II: US​

WE believe that when Jesus Christ died, that He had an objective in view. WE believe that objective will with complete assurance and beyond any shadow of a doubt be accomplished. WE measure the intent of the death of Christ by the effect that it accomplished. If THEY were to ask US the question:

“What was the purpose or intention of Christ’s death?”

WE would respond with the obvious answer: “What the death of Christ accomplished.” The measure of the effect IS the measure of the intent when one is speaking of God’s Love. Is is nonsense to think that God Almighty’s intentions could be frustrated by anything! It beggars the imagination that the design of something so great as the Atonement could have in any way, shape or form missed the mark in any measure.

Therefore, WE are not afraid to believe, proclaim and firmly hold that Jesus Christ came into the the world to accomplish exactly what He did accomplish … to save “a multitude which no man can number” [Revelation 7:9]. Furthermore, because of this, WE believe that every person for whom Christ died must - beyond the shadow of a doubt certain:

• be cleansed from sin
• be washed in His blood
• stand redeemed before the Father’s throne

WE do not believe that Jesus made any atonement for those that are damned. Christ only makes EFFECTUAL atonement, Christ does not fail in atoning for people. WE cannot think that the blood of Christ was spilled with the intention of saving those whom GOD Foreknew could never be saved. WE cannot believe that the precious blood of Christ was pointlessly shed for those that were already damned and in hell when (as THEY would have US believe) Christ died to save them!

PART III: THE FALSE ACCUSATION​

THEY will often make the accusation of US:

“Calvinism limits the atonement of Christ because WE say Christ did not die to bring Sanctification to all men.”

This accusation is false, it is THEY that limit the atonement. WE do not.

THEY say Christ died for all men, but that death did not secure the salvation of all men. (Even THEY are not UNIVERSALISTS arguing that there is no hell). THEY teach that Christ did not UNCONDITIONALLY secure the salvation of any man in particular. They teach “Christ died so that any man may be saved if …” - then come the conditions for salvation. Above and beyond this, THEY typically believe that a man can fall from Grace even after they have been justified. So then … who is it that really limits the death of Christ? THEM! THEY say that the death of Christ did not irresistibly secure the death of anybody, but accuse US of limiting the death of Christ.

WE say that Jesus Christ died to, with complete certainty, secure the salvation of “a multitude that no man can number” [Revelation 7:9]. WE say that through Christ’s death this multitude of individuals not only MAY be saved, but MUST be saved, and WILL be saved … there is no possibility of any outcome other than their being saved!

So who really has a limited view of Christ’s death: US or THEM?

Charles Spurgeon presented this issue with a terrific analogy. THEY (Arminians / Free Will / General Atonement) is like a great wide bridge that spans only half way across a river: it does not secure salvation for anybody, but has room for everybody. WE (Calvinist / Reformed / Particular Atonement) is like a narrow bridge that spans all the way across the river: it secures salvation for all who cross it and none others.

“Now, I had rather put my foot upon a bridge as narrow as Hungerford, which went all the way across, than on a bridge that was as wide as the world, if it did not go all the way across the stream.“ - C.H. Spurgeon

Me, too.

PART IV: THE VERSE​

Those that know me, know that I like a scripture verse to support what I say. Recently I have observed that posting many verses just leads to many bunny trails. Therefore I offer just one verse (from two places):

• Matthew 20:28 [NKJV] "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
• Mark 10:45 [NKJV] "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

 

[Rightglory]

(I did a search and it seems to have been a while since there was a topic dedicated to Limited Atonement.)

There are different theories about REDEMPTION.

We all, if we are Christian, believe that Jesus Christ died to redeem.

Beyond that, different people teach a different NATURE of the atonement and a different DESIGN of the redemption. With what follows, I propose to lay out in clear and logical terms how THEIR view is wrong and OUR view is correct. Nothing more and nothing less.

PART I: THEM​

THEY claim that Jesus Christ did not die with the intent to save any particular person. When Jesus died, that death did not, all alone and completely by itself, secure the salvation of any specific living human being beyond any shadow of a doubt. THEY teach that Jesus Christ died to make salvation possible for all men and available to all men … that because of Christ’s work of redemption, any man who pleases may obtain eternal life by doing something else.

If THEY are willing to be honest, then THEY will be forced to admit that IF no man was willing to give way and voluntarily surrender to God’s grace, then Christ’s atonement would have saved no one. THEY must admit that in their belief there is no PARTICULARITY in the atonement of Christ for one individual over another. According to THEM, Jesus Christ died on the cross for Judas in hell as much as for Peter in heaven. THEY believe that for every person who is consigned to the eternal fires of hell, there was a redemption made that was every bit as real, and was identical to, the redemption made for every person who stands before the throne in heaven.

PART II: US​

WE believe that when Jesus Christ died, that He had an objective in view. WE believe that objective will with complete assurance and beyond any shadow of a doubt be accomplished. WE measure the intent of the death of Christ by the effect that it accomplished. If THEY were to ask US the question:

“What was the purpose or intention of Christ’s death?”

WE would respond with the obvious answer: “What the death of Christ accomplished.” The measure of the effect IS the measure of the intent when one is speaking of God’s Love. Is is nonsense to think that God Almighty’s intentions could be frustrated by anything! It beggars the imagination that the design of something so great as the Atonement could have in any way, shape or form missed the mark in any measure.

Therefore, WE are not afraid to believe, proclaim and firmly hold that Jesus Christ came into the the world to accomplish exactly what He did accomplish … to save “a multitude which no man can number” [Revelation 7:9]. Furthermore, because of this, WE believe that every person for whom Christ died must - beyond the shadow of a doubt certain:

• be cleansed from sin
• be washed in His blood
• stand redeemed before the Father’s throne

WE do not believe that Jesus made any atonement for those that are damned. Christ only makes EFFECTUAL atonement, Christ does not fail in atoning for people. WE cannot think that the blood of Christ was spilled with the intention of saving those whom GOD Foreknew could never be saved. WE cannot believe that the precious blood of Christ was pointlessly shed for those that were already damned and in hell when (as THEY would have US believe) Christ died to save them!

PART III: THE FALSE ACCUSATION​

THEY will often make the accusation of US:

“Calvinism limits the atonement of Christ because WE say Christ did not die to bring Sanctification to all men.”

This accusation is false, it is THEY that limit the atonement. WE do not.

THEY say Christ died for all men, but that death did not secure the salvation of all men. (Even THEY are not UNIVERSALISTS arguing that there is no hell). THEY teach that Christ did not UNCONDITIONALLY secure the salvation of any man in particular. They teach “Christ died so that any man may be saved if …” - then come the conditions for salvation. Above and beyond this, THEY typically believe that a man can fall from Grace even after they have been justified. So then … who is it that really limits the death of Christ? THEM! THEY say that the death of Christ did not irresistibly secure the death of anybody, but accuse US of limiting the death of Christ.

WE say that Jesus Christ died to, with complete certainty, secure the salvation of “a multitude that no man can number” [Revelation 7:9]. WE say that through Christ’s death this multitude of individuals not only MAY be saved, but MUST be saved, and WILL be saved … there is no possibility of any outcome other than their being saved!

So who really has a limited view of Christ’s death: US or THEM?

Charles Spurgeon presented this issue with a terrific analogy. THEY (Arminians / Free Will / General Atonement) is like a great wide bridge that spans only half way across a river: it does not secure salvation for anybody, but has room for everybody. WE (Calvinist / Reformed / Particular Atonement) is like a narrow bridge that spans all the way across the river: it secures salvation for all who cross it and none others.

“Now, I had rather put my foot upon a bridge as narrow as Hungerford, which went all the way across, than on a bridge that was as wide as the world, if it did not go all the way across the stream.“ - C.H. Spurgeon

Me, too.

PART IV: THE VERSE​

Those that know me, know that I like a scripture verse to support what I say. Recently I have observed that posting many verses just leads to many bunny trails. Therefore I offer just one verse (from two places):

• Matthew 20:28 [NKJV] "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
• Mark 10:45 [NKJV] "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

I have two texts that refutes your whole thesis.
I John 2:2 and Heb 2:9.
Then, my question to you is this. Do you believe in the Incarnation of Christ?

 

[atpollard]

Do you believe in the Incarnation of Christ?

[begin sarcasm] No, I do not believe that Jesus was ever a man ... I am a follower of Docetism. [end sarcasm]

Christians should assume that other Christians are Christians.

I have two texts that refutes your whole thesis.
I John 2:2 and Heb 2:9.

1 John 2:2 [NASB] and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So which is it ...

• Jesus "propitiation" is insufficient to save (the whole world - every person without exception - is not saved)

or

• UNIVERSALISM - every person without exception has had their sins forgiven and is redeemed by the blood of Jesus - Judas is in heaven with Peter.

WE believe, as I explained, that the BLOOD of Jesus was effective for the salvation of every person that God intended to save ... the whole world "... a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.'" Revelation 7:9-10 [NASB]

 

[Rightglory]

[begin sarcasm] No, I do not believe that Jesus was ever a man ... I am a follower of Docetism. [end sarcasm]

Christians should assume that other Christians are Christians.

1 John 2:2 [NASB] and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So which is it ...

• Jesus "propitiation" is insufficient to save (the whole world - every person without exception - is not saved)

You are applying your meaning to individuals, namely how we are being saved through faith. Christ did not save individuals, personally by His death and resurrection. He saved mankind, actually the whole world from the power of sin and death. So your answer is absolutely everyone, He missed none. John 6:39. This text is referring to Col 1:16-20 where all things were given to Him. He saved mankind so that He and man could have an eternal relationship again in this world and the next.
Christ work is universal, It could not possibly be otherwise which is why I ask you if you believe in the Incarnation of Christ since a theory of Limited atonement is a direct denial of the Incarnation.

or

• UNIVERSALISM - every person without exception has had their sins forgiven and is redeemed by the blood of Jesus - Judas is in heaven with Peter.

WE believe, as I explained, that the BLOOD of Jesus was effective for the salvation of every person that God intended to save ... the whole world "... a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.'" Revelation 7:9-10 [NASB]

What Christ did has nothing to do with whether Judas or Peter were saved as individuals. Thus neither I nor scripture believes in Universalism. Not that it matters, but Universalism was declared heretical in 533,

 

[brightfame52]

Limited effectual Atonement for Gods Chosen People is a vital Gospel Doctrine of Grace !

 

[Rightglory]

Limited effectual Atonement for Gods Chosen People is a vital Gospel Doctrine of Grace !

Limited Atonement has not existed as part of the Gospel of Grace. It is antithetical to who Christ is and what He accomplished as our Incarnated Savior.
It is a false teaching of Calvinism and was declared heretical by Synod of Jerusalem in 1672.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are applying your meaning to individuals, namely how we are being saved through faith. Christ did not save individuals, personally by His death and resurrection. He saved mankind, actually the whole world from the power of sin and death. So your answer is absolutely everyone, He missed none. John 6:39. This text is referring to Col 1:16-20 where all things were given to Him. He saved mankind so that He and man could have an eternal relationship again in this world and the next.
Christ work is universal, It could not possibly be otherwise which is why I ask you if you believe in the Incarnation of Christ since a theory of Limited atonement is a direct denial of the Incarnation.

What Christ did has nothing to do with whether Judas or Peter were saved as individuals. Thus neither I nor scripture believes in Universalism. Not that it matters, but Universalism was declared heretical in 533,

You are wrong. Jesus saved individuals not people generically.

Jesus is the propitiation of the world- and propitiation means the acceptable sacrifice.

Jesus paid for the sins of the world- but the payment must be received by trust or the payment is not applied!

Romans 9 shows god selection of individuals. Ephesians also shows this.

The opponents of biblical limited atonement are opposed because they made a characature if it and attack the characature.

Limites atonement simply and fully means that only the elect are beneficiaries of the atonement for they received it. The unelect do not receive the benefit of Jesus death,

 

[Rightglory]

You are wrong. Jesus saved individuals not people generically.

Jesus is the propitiation of the world- and propitiation means the acceptable sacrifice.

Jesus paid for the sins of the world- but the payment must be received by trust or the payment is not applied!

Romans 9 shows god selection of individuals. Ephesians also shows this.

The opponents of biblical limited atonement are opposed because they made a characature if it and attack the characature.

Limites atonement simply and fully means that only the elect are beneficiaries of the atonement for they received it. The unelect do not receive the benefit of Jesus death,

Your statements shows that you do not understand the atonement. The atonement can be summed up with two verses in the Bible. I John 2:2, Heb 2:9.
Christ accomplished two things. He defeated death and provided a sacrifice for sin. You can also say He defeated death and the power sin for all men.
His Incarnation means Jesus was born with our human nature. Man was created from the earth. We are consubstantial with the earth which is why the universe was subjected to death as well as Adam. It is this very human nature that Christ assumed by the Virgin Mary. Thus when Christ arose from the dead, so did all that possessed that human nature. This fact alone precludes a limited atonement.

Christ provided for a sacrifice for sin. That blood was sufficient for the world ten times over.
This what is called the recapitulation of the world, the reconciliation of the World, Christ was the Savior of the world. It is a completed work.
Life will be imposed on us just as man was created, He was recreated which will be consummated in the eschaton when all men will be raised to life.
The sacrifice for sin made it possible for God to have a relationship with man in this world and for an eternity. It provided for the forgiveness of sin. Our sin separates us from God and ONLY confession and Christ promise to remit that sin keeps us in union/communion with Him.

Just to look at what a limited atonement actually means and its result. Paul states that if the dead are not raised the n Christ is not raised, and those that believed, believed in vain, I Cor 15:16-17. We would not have the resurrection of the dead. We would not have a new heaven and a new earth,. There would be no judgement, since all simply were dissolved by death.

God also never selected anyone to believe.

 

[brightfame52]

Limited Atonement has not existed as part of the Gospel of Grace. It is antithetical to who Christ is and what He accomplished as our Incarnated Savior.
It is a false teaching of Calvinism and was declared heretical by Synod of Jerusalem in 1672.

Oh Yes, No Limited Atonement, No Gospel friend ! Nothing but unbelief

 

[Rightglory]

Oh Yes, No Limited Atonement, No Gospel friend ! Nothing but unbelief

I could ask to produce the evidence but I know you cannot.
Both scripture and 2000 years shows of understanding shows otherwise. History also shows that it is a false teaching of Calvinism.

 

[brightfame52]

I could ask to produce the evidence but I know you cannot.
Both scripture and 2000 years shows of understanding shows otherwise. History also shows that it is a false teaching of Calvinism.

The scripture is the evidence, whats needed is for God to open up your understanding, until then, its unbelief. Limited atonement, Unconditional election, totial depravity, effectual grace, preservation are all vital doctrines of the Gospel taught in the scriptures.

 

[Rightglory]

The scripture is the evidence, whats needed is for God to open up your understanding, until then, its unbelief. Limited atonement, Unconditional election, totial depravity, effectual grace, preservation are all vital doctrines of the Gospel taught in the scriptures.

You may believe so, but that is your choice. Scripture has never supported any of Calvin's 5 points.
My prayer is that the Holy Spirit opens up your mind so that you may understand your error. The Holy Spirit was not wrong for 1500 years.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your statements shows that you do not understand the atonement. The atonement can be summed up with two verses in the Bible. I John 2:2, Heb 2:9.
Christ accomplished two things. He defeated death and provided a sacrifice for sin. You can also say He defeated death and the power sin for all men.
His Incarnation means Jesus was born with our human nature. Man was created from the earth. We are consubstantial with the earth which is why the universe was subjected to death as well as Adam. It is this very human nature that Christ assumed by the Virgin Mary. Thus when Christ arose from the dead, so did all that possessed that human nature. This fact alone precludes a limited atonement.

Christ provided for a sacrifice for sin. That blood was sufficient for the world ten times over.
This what is called the recapitulation of the world, the reconciliation of the World, Christ was the Savior of the world. It is a completed work.
Life will be imposed on us just as man was created, He was recreated which will be consummated in the eschaton when all men will be raised to life.
The sacrifice for sin made it possible for God to have a relationship with man in this world and for an eternity. It provided for the forgiveness of sin. Our sin separates us from God and ONLY confession and Christ promise to remit that sin keeps us in union/communion with Him.

Just to look at what a limited atonement actually means and its result. Paul states that if the dead are not raised the n Christ is not raised, and those that believed, believed in vain, I Cor 15:16-17. We would not have the resurrection of the dead. We would not have a new heaven and a new earth,. There would be no judgement, since all simply were dissolved by death.

God also never selected anyone to believe.

I see you rproblem. YOu are equating propitiation with atonement and those two are different actions.
Jesus is the propitiation means He is the only acceptable sacrifice for sin.

But in order for one to be "saved" one must trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus alone for their sin without condition or work.

Limited atonement simply means that jesus died for the sins of the world and paid for the sins of the world, but only those who appropriate by faith receive the atonment or removal of their sin debt from them.

Jesus death and resurrection made all men savable, but the bible is clear that not all will be saved!

 

[brightfame52]

You may believe so, but that is your choice. Scripture has never supported any of Calvin's 5 points.
My prayer is that the Holy Spirit opens up your mind so that you may understand your error. The Holy Spirit was not wrong for 1500 years.

The 5 Points are nothing short of the foundational Truths of the Gospel of Gods Grace, no matter how hard you deny it friend. May God be pleased to convert you to the Truth.

 

[Rightglory]

I see you rproblem. YOu are equating propitiation with atonement and those two are different actions.
Jesus is the propitiation means He is the only acceptable sacrifice for sin.

They mean or do the same thing. Propitiation is "covering for sin" the sacrifice is what propitiates sin or reconciles mankind/world to God. This is what Christ did for the world/mankind.

But in order for one to be "saved" one must trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus alone for their sin without condition or work.

It is called believe/belief in Christ and what He did for us, which scripture calls, justification by faith. Which does not save us either as you are using the word. We are being saved through that faith which entails a lot of work, called the law of faith. A dead faith is no faith.

Limited atonement simply means that jesus died for the sins of the world and paid for the sins of the world, but only those who appropriate by faith receive the atonment or removal of their sin debt from them.

All men receive the atonement. Christ defeated death and all men will be raised in the last day to life. He performed a sacrifice for sin which is available to all men. Christ is our High Priest now, and when we confess our sin He is able and willing to forgive our sins. That is an ongoing event in the life of a believer.
Limited atonement is a direct denial of the Incarnation of Christ. Also, you seem to dismiss or ignore the primary purpose of Christ's work which is defeating death.

Jesus death and resurrection made all men savable, but the bible is clear that not all will be saved!

More correctly stated is Christ saved the world from death and the power of sin. Each individual is saved through one's faith in God.

 

[Rightglory]

The 5 Points are nothing short of the foundational Truths of the Gospel of Gods Grace, no matter how hard you deny it friend. May God be pleased to convert you to the Truth.

Only asserted, not proven as being scriptural. You might have a good grasp of Calvinism though.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

The sacrifice that Jesus gave ? was so that one can live ?
If one does pick up on the facts regarding the sacrifice then you will receive the gift ! Like his disciples did when he went to Heaven.

Jesus came that you will have life in abundance ? and not wast your life on this worlds deceptions and delusions, that's madness, people who are possessed with such derangements and depravity, they kill and rise up against others like they did to Jesus. it's that they can not stand up right, for they have drunk of this world.

One who does not truly understand the sacrifice is lost, they would not understand that you need to understand that people are born carnal, Lost, but one is found in Christ ? He becomes your Lord = Christ ! so you are then his Saved. It's called Lordship Salvation. one can only serve him ! Because one understands that outside of Christ Jesus, is only that who would kill him and this did work in regards to kill him, mainly because such as they do not know what they do ? but then again their are who do know what they do and are proud of such ?

When one truly understands why they did what they did to Jesus, then you understand who they are, or our carnal nature ? for the Lost is like a wild beast, as was pointed out about casting pearls before swine, as they will try to destroy you directly !

The carnal and the religious are not worthy of God, for they do not know his only begotten Son in fact, they may know of him somewhat ! but truly a wild beast that has not been enlightened !
They are not Blessed !
They are not worthy of Grace !
But they could have hope as all have that gift open to them, if they do turn to Christ Jesus, he will not drive such a one away. It was the leadership of the Jews that worked in frantic to turn people against him in fact ! for they were not worthy of God ! but were on the path of the Golden Calf Mob and they who crept in unawares etc etc. They had baggage, that Stephen pointed out to them was wrong and they killed him for pointing out the truth, in Acts

 

[brightfame52]

Only asserted, not proven as being scriptural. You might have a good grasp of Calvinism though.

Sure they have been proven with scripture, but just not to you. Unfortunately you are not the standard to determine whats been proven or not.

 

[Rightglory]

Sure they have been proven with scripture, but just not to you. Unfortunately you are not the standard to determine whats been proven or not.

I have never made that claim. The Holy Spirit promised to preserve the Gospel He gave ONCE, completely. That has been born out in history within the Church Christ founded at Pentecost.

 

[brightfame52]

I have never made that claim. The Holy Spirit promised to preserve the Gospel He gave ONCE, completely. That has been born out in history within the Church Christ founded at Pentecost.

The Holy Spirit has been successful! What are you talking about