LIMITED ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus was the propitiation of ALL sin for ALL time and the debt had been removed.
BUT – it ONLY apples to those who have repented and been Baptized.

The ticket into Heaven had been purchased – for EVERYONE.
BUT - NOT everyone will accept that ticket.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that WHOEVER believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 Tim. 2:2-3
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, WHO WANTS ALL PEOPLE TO BE SAVED and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

God wants ALL to be saved – NOT all will choose that path.

we agree on everything except teh definition of propitiation and atonement. I follow the biblical definitions as used at the time of their writing.

Be well. We agree and on the definitions we must agree to disagree.

The debt is only removed when one accepts Jesus by faith. If they do not- then the debt is still on their books and they must pay for it.

 

[amigo de christo]

we agree on everything except teh definition of propitiation and atonement. I follow the biblical definitions as used at the time of their writing.

Be well. We agree and on the definitions we must agree to disagree.

The debt is only removed when one accepts Jesus by faith. If they do not- then the debt is still on their books and they must pay for it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Limited Atonement, as Calvin taught was for a select number of predestined people.
That is what I am arguing against.

He taught that God actually created some for eternal damnation and others for salvation. This is heresy, according to Scripture.
God WILLS the salvation of ALL people (1 Tim. 2:3-4) - but NOT all people will be saved.

No Calvin did not teach double predestination- that is hyper calvinism which is heresy.

And the elect are predestined and chosen before the foundation of the world as God's Word declares!

And god does not will all to be saved- He desires all to be saved. If God willed all to be saved- all would be saved! there is no will in the universe stronger than Gods!

1 Peter 1:1-3

King James Version

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1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Romans 9:15-18

King James Version

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15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Everyone by nature is condemned to the lake of fire. If God di dnot intervene in the hearts of some men no one would get to heaven.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Welcome to the age of Laodicea and Apostasy in America

 

[Scott Downey]

God gives some people over, quite a few people. Because of their grievous sins. Reade Romans 1.

And God has the right to do what He wants with His own things. It is up to God to show mercy to some according to his purpose and will. Someone like Paul is a very good example of this.
Paul also says the people who will believe in time were chosen before time began.

2 Timothy 1
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

1 Timothy 1​

Glory to God for His Grace​

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an [d]insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to [e]God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

God calls us to Himself by His grace, and we learn of Him by revelation from His Spirit to our own spirit the things of God.
Hebrews 8 tells us the New Covenant established in Christ's blood is not taught by man, no one is taugth to know the Lord in the NC, He teaches His people, after He makes them born of God.

Galatians 1
11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

 

[Scott Downey]

A New Covenant​

Hebrews 8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins [b]and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

If your in a church that claims you teach someone to be saved and know the LORD, you are being taught a LIE.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No Calvin did not teach double predestination- that is hyper calvinism which is heresy.

And the elect are predestined and chosen before the foundation of the world as God's Word declares!

That’s NOT accurate.
In Calvin’s own words:

“[W]e say that God once established by His eternal and unchangeable plan those whom He long before determined once and for all to receive into salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, He would devote to destruction.”
(Institutes of Christian Religion (1559), book III, ch. xxi).

And god does not will all to be saved- He desires all to be saved. If God willed all to be saved- all would be saved! there is no will in the universe stronger than Gods!

Sorry, but you’re wrong.

The Greek word used in 1 Tim 2:4 is τηελο (thel'-o), which means:
1) to will, have in mind, intend 1a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose

God's will is NOT always followed on earth as it is in Heaven.
That's why we pray for it in the Lord's Prayer.

 

[Scott Downey]

That’s NOT accurate.
In Calvin’s own words:

“[W]e say that God once established by His eternal and unchangeable plan those whom He long before determined once and for all to receive into salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, He would devote to destruction.”
(Institutes of Christian Religion (1559), book III, ch. xxi).

Sorry, but you’re wrong.

The Greek word used in 1 Tim 2:4 is τηελο (thel'-o), which means:
1) to will, have in mind, intend 1a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose

God's will is NOT always followed on earth as it is in Heaven.
That's why we pray for it in the Lord's Prayer.

We do pray for God's will to be done on earth as it is in Heaven, and so it will be done on the earth.
God does not need millions of prayers praying to do His will. Just a single prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much.
And the prayers of the wicked are an abomination to God.

Proverbs 28:9 ESV​

If one turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination.

Proverbs 15:29 ESV​

The Lord is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous.

Proverbs 15:8
The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord, But the prayer of the upright is His delight.

 

[Scott Downey]

LOL, That pastor keeps saying 'MY church'.... a warning sign to me.
It is either the Lord Jesus Christ's church or they are not HIS people.
Christ adds to His church daily those who are getting saved.

Acts 2
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added [a]to the church daily those who were being saved.

Romans 8, I dont see much life and peace in that video, as there is dissensions and contentions as some are not living their life according to the Spirit. That means believing and paying attention to what God says in scripture vs the traditions of men. Sow to the Spirit, from the Spirit reap eternal life, sow to the flesh (ways of men) and from the flesh you will reap corruption. Dissensions and contentions against the scriptures are works of the flesh. Those who do those things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [d]through His Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[Scott Downey]

Galatians 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [a]adultery, [b]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, [c]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[BreadOfLife]

We do pray for God's will to be done on earth as it is in Heaven, and so it will be done on the earth.
God does not need millions of prayers praying to do His will. Just a single prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much.
And the prayers of the wicked are an abomination to God.

Proverbs 28:9 ESV​

If one turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination.

Proverbs 15:29 ESV​

The Lord is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous.

Proverbs 15:8
The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord, But the prayer of the upright is His delight.

WHO said ANYTHING about prayers of the wicked??
I merely stated a Biblical fact: The the will of God is NOT always done one earth.

At the Last Supper, Jesus (God) fervently prayed for the unity of His Church - that remain ONE as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-21)
Was His will done - or do we have thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant factions that ALL teach different doctrines?

 

[Scott Downey]

WHO said ANYTHING about prayers of the wicked??
I merely stated a Biblical fact: The the will of God is NOT always done one earth.

At the Last Supper, Jesus (God) fervently prayed for the unity of His Church - that remain ONE as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-21)
Was His will done - or do we have thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant factions that ALL teach different doctrines?

God's judgement against the actions of sinful men is also a demonstration of His will carried out.

Evil people store up wrath against themselves.
God is in control down here, God allows an exercise of the evil nature of the sons of disobedience to become examples for his coming wrath on the unbelieving world, and also as examples for us to not be like them.
God never had in His will to save all as in each and every single person.
God does seem to have a permissible will, that allows people, Satan and demons to be evil. But only for a time.

 

[BreadOfLife]

God's judgement against the actions of sinful men is also a demonstration of His will carried out.

Evil people store up wrath against themselves.
God is in control down here, God allows an exercise of the evil nature of the sons of disobedience to become examples for his coming wrath on the unbelieving world, and also as examples for us to not be like them.

I wasn't arguing aganist that.

God never had in His will to save all as in each and every single person.
God does seem to have a permissible will, that allows people, Satan and demons to be evil. But only for a time.

The point is that His will is NOT always carried out here on earth because of our free will.

Sin was never His will - but it entered the world.