Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[ScottA]

But if faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, doesn't that mean the Holy Spirit generates saving faith that draws us? It did in my case........

Well...you may as well be asking if Jesus was wrong in explaining things in the order He did.

So, I would recommend that your own understanding be reconciled to Christ, rather than the other way around. But I believe this is a little misunderstanding...very much like, "Which came first the chicken or the egg?" Human logic would say the Holy Spirit came first, but it isn't so according to Christ. So I think this has to come under the heading of "the renewing of our mind." His understanding is not naturally our understanding.

Given that Christ is correct, I would then surmise that something is lost in translation between what has happened "before the foundation of the world", and what occurs according to the times of man. In such a translation what has occurred before the world began has no order of which came first, for all that is with God is "the same yesterday, today, and forever." In which case you are partially correct...but your explanation cannot supersede that of Christ's. I would recommend, therefore, that you either consider the order of things as "before", or quote Christ in the order that He has given: Father, Son, and [then] Holy Spirit.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

If you fornicate and get pregnant, but don't want the baby. Can you deliberately get an abortion thinking you'll ask for forgiveness and God is obligated to forgive you?

 

[Dave L]

Well...you may as well be asking if Jesus was wrong in explaining things in the order He did.

So, I would recommend that your own understanding be reconciled to Christ, rather than the other way around. But I believe this is a little misunderstanding...very much like, "Which came first the chicken or the egg?" Human logic would say the Holy Spirit came first, but it isn't so according to Christ. So I think this has to come under the heading of "the renewing of our mind." His understanding is not naturally our understanding.

Given that Christ is correct, I would then surmise that something is lost in translation between what has happened "before the foundation of the world", and what occurs according to the times of man. In such a translation what has occurred before the world began has no order of which came first, for all that is with God is "the same yesterday, today, and forever." In which case you are partially correct...but your explanation cannot supersede that of Christ's. I would recommend, therefore, that you either consider the order of things as "before", or quote Christ in the order that He has given: Father, Son, and [then] Holy Spirit.

You are taking unwarranted liberties with the passages you quote. Put things in rightful order and they'll square with the rest of scripture.

 

[ScottA]

You are taking unwarranted liberties with the passages you quote. Put things in rightful order and they'll square with the rest of scripture.

On the contrary, I am keeping it simple. But if you believe that I have take unwarranted liberties... show me.

 

[Dave L]

On the contrary, I am keeping it simple. But if you believe that I have take unwarranted liberties... show me.

Technically, Christ paying for our sins was first in securing our salvation, then the new birth (Holy Spirit), then faith, then repentance and all of its out workings.

 

[Dave L]

If you fornicate and get pregnant, but don't want the baby. Can you deliberately get an abortion thinking you'll ask for forgiveness and God is obligated to forgive you?

Bathsheba was a necessary link in Christ's lineage. He would not have been the same, or possibly not even existed if another woman had stood in her place. So we need to look at the big picture and see how God chastised David before he sinned, in giving him over to his lusts, and then claiming the child that came from that unholy union. But in the end, it all worked out according to God's plan.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Bathsheba was a necessary link in Christ's lineage. He would not have been the same, or possibly not even existed if another woman had stood in her place. So we need to look at the big picture and see how God chastised David before he sinned, in giving him over to his lusts, and then claiming the child that came from that unholy union. But in the end, it all worked out according to God's plan.

Answer the question I raised instead of side-stepping it.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

okay go ahead and think that. Not sure how since I mentioned repentance and that it’s daily and life long.

Your view of eternal security is as long as you are the one in control of doing everything right you’ll be good. You’ll let God have the glory as long as you’re in control. Hey, He can’t do it without you

You would have to go back and read everything he believes to see you are the same.

 

[LC627]

You would have to go back and read everything he believes to see you are the same.

I'm very well aware that I sin, praise God for the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ScottA]

Technically, Christ paying for our sins was first in securing our salvation, then the new birth (Holy Spirit), then faith, then repentance and all of its out workings.

That's better. But then of course you get into the issue of "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Chicken or egg. Which then leaves faith as wild card always good for salvation - not first, next, or last, but...whenever.

Bottom line, there is no private interpretation, and Christ's own interpretation or explanation stands.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'm very well aware that I sin, praise God for the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Are you willfully sinning? If so, why can't you stop before you sin? That is what the Holy Spirit does. Not just convicts after you sin, but keeps you from sinning in the first place. You would have to rebelliously quench the Spirit, and choose darkness to go ahead and willfully sin.

That is what is meant by walking in the Spirit. He leads us. But not to sin, then convicts us after the fact. Only if you do NOT have the Spirit does the LAW convict you of sin after the fact. If you don't have the prevention of the Christ's Spirit, then Romans 8:9 says you don't belong to Christ.

 

[LC627]

Are you willfully sinning? If so, why can't you stop before you sin? That is what the Holy Spirit does. Not just convicts after you sin, but keeps you from sinning in the first place. You would have to rebelliously quench the Spirit, and choose darkness to go ahead and willfully sin.

That is what is meant by walking in the Spirit. He leads us. But not to sin, then convicts us after the fact. Only if you do NOT have the Spirit does the LAW convict you of sin after the fact. If you don't have the prevention of the Christ's Spirit, then Romans 8:9 says you don't belong to Christ.

Are you perfect as a Believer? Following God perfectly throughout each day? Never having to war against the flesh? Never struggle to walk in love? Always say what is right?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Are you perfect as a Believer? Following God perfectly throughout each day? Never having to war against the flesh? Never struggle to walk in love? Always say what is right?

I asked if you sinned willfully. If you are afraid to answer me, then ask yourself. Don't go to hell because you haven't tested yourself.

 

[Dave L]

That's better. But then of course you get into the issue of "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Chicken or egg. Which then leaves faith as wild card always good for salvation - not first, next, or last, but...whenever.

Bottom line, there is no private interpretation, and Christ's own interpretation or explanation stands.

Jesus is the Word, the Author and Finisher of our faith that remains a fruit of the Holy Spirit and not a work of the flesh.

 

[Dave L]

Answer the question I raised instead of side-stepping it.

The question is loaded. So I must first unload it.

 

[bbyrd009]

If you fornicate and get pregnant, but don't want the baby. Can you deliberately get an abortion thinking you'll ask for forgiveness and God is obligated to forgive you?

hmm, second time in as many days i have seen this "ask for forgiveness" that does not exist in Scripture along with the notion that God does not forgive all sin. Not sure how any believer ever came to either of these?

 

[H. Richard]

I asked if you sinned willfully. If you are afraid to answer me, then ask yourself. Don't go to hell because you haven't tested yourself.

***

Do you sin willfully?

 

[LC627]

I asked if you sinned willfully. If you are afraid to answer me, then ask yourself. Don't go to hell because you haven't tested yourself.

Since I am human and don't always please / follow God as I should. Yes I sin and at times choose my own selfish desire over God. The difference is that believes do not actively seek out the lifestyle of sin and it's evil pleasures and takes joy in rebelling against God. The only person who followed God perfeclty with no sin was Jesus so unless you're on His level, you might want to drop the self righteous holier than thou attitude. We all applaud you for your perfect obedience and example we should follow

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The question is loaded. So I must first unload it.

Unload, by not answer? It is a very real question in this day and age.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

***

Do you sin willfully?

No, not willfully.