Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[BreadOfLife]

Commanded out of thankfulness to te cross, ,not to save yourself

No - commanded because it is an essential element of faith (James 2:14-26).

 

[justbyfaith]

We are not forgiven of our sins because of any works that we do in order to please God...we are forgiven through faith alone in what Jesus did for us on the Cross.

This is apart from works (Romans 4:5-6).

Works come about as the result of any true, living, faith...because we receive the love of God through faith (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5) and this love is not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

But I almost have refrained from sharing these things here because the Bible says in Jeremiah 4:3, For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns...

 

[BreadOfLife]

We are not forgiven of our sins because of any works that we do in order to please God...we are forgiven through faith alone in what Jesus did for us on the Cross.

This is apart from works (Romans 4:5-6).

Works come about as the result of any true, living, faith...because we receive the love of God through faith (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5) and this love is not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

But I almost have refrained from sharing these things here because the Bible says in Jeremiah 4:3, For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns...

That all depends on what YOU define as “Faith”.

If, by “Faith”, you mean that we are saved by our belief in Christ and h\His promises – that is NOT supported by Scripture.
As a matter of fact – the ONLY place you will find the phrase “Faith alone” (Sola Fide) in ALL of Scripture is in James 2:24, where it says:

You see that a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.

The Catholic Church agrees with the Bible - that we are saved by faith in the saving work of Christ on the cross.
HOWEVER, the Bible defines faith as Belief + Obedience (Works) (James 2:14-26).

Works are not a mere "after-effect". They are an essential element of true faith.

 

[CoreIssue]

That all depends on what YOU define as “Faith”.

If, by “Faith”, you mean that we are saved by our belief in Christ and h\His promises – that is NOT supported by Scripture.
As a matter of fact – the ONLY place you will find the phrase “Faith alone” (Sola Fide) in ALL of Scripture is in James 2:24, where it says:

You see that a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.

The Catholic Church agrees with the Bible - that we are saved by faith in the saving work of Christ on the cross.
HOWEVER, the Bible defines faith as Belief + Obedience (Works) (James 2:14-26).

Works are not a mere "after-effect". They are an essential element of true faith.

The Bible says your wrong.

Ephesians 2:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

All you can do is ask. After that God gives it to you as a pure gift. Not one ounce of your work involved.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Bible says your wrong.

Ephesians 2:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

All you can do is ask. After that God gives it to you as a pure gift. Not one ounce of your work involved.

That doesn't mean I'm wrong.
If you had bothered to read just 2 verses further - you would have seen that the Bible says that those works that I do were prepared FOR me by GOD (Eph.) 2:10).

Don't just QUOTE the Bible - LEARN what it means . . .

 

[CoreIssue]

That doesn't mean I'm wrong.
If you had bothered to read just 2 verses further - you would have seen that the Bible says that those works that I do were prepared FOR me by GOD (Eph.) 2:10).

Don't just QUOTE the Bible - LEARN what it means . . .

In most assuredly proves you wrong. As well as other verses and say the same thing.

As for verse 10

Ephesians 2:10 New International Version (NIV)
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

It says we were created by do good works. Good works are the result of being born again.

Absolute no connecting works to gaining salvation at all.

 

[BreadOfLife]

In most assuredly proves you wrong. As well as other verses and say the same thing.

As for verse 10

Ephesians 2:10 New International Version (NIV)
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

It says we were created by do good works. Good works are the result of being born again.

Absolute no connecting works to gaining salvation at all.

You and @justbyfaith suffer from the same deficiency. NEITHER of you understands the CONTEXT of Scripture.

You bother cherry-pick verses that seem to contradict each other and build doctrines around the ones yu agree with while rationalizing the others that seem to reject your position.

You must take ALL of Scripture in context. James talks about the fact that true faith is a marriage of belief PLUS works. This is precisely why Luther called James the “Epistle of Straw” and wanted to remove it, along with Hebrews, Jude and Revelation.

You guys are as paranoid as Luther . . .

 

[CoreIssue]

You and @justbyfaith suffer from the same deficiency. NEITHER of you understands the CONTEXT of Scripture.

You bother cherry-pick verses that seem to contradict each other and build doctrines around the ones yu agree with while rationalizing the others that seem to reject your position.

You must take ALL of Scripture in context. James talks about the fact that true faith is a marriage of belief PLUS works. This is precisely why Luther called James the “Epistle of Straw” and wanted to remove it, along with Hebrews, Jude and Revelation.

You guys are as paranoid as Luther . . .

I fully know your defending Catholicism at all cost.

Your loss.

 

[Heb 13:8]

That, too.

nope, just that, and u wonder why they call it easy believism

 

[Heb 13:8]

No - commanded because it is an essential element of faith (James 2:14-26).

faith that produces godly righteousness, and not to save yourself

 

[justbyfaith]

Romans 4:5-6, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

 

[BreadOfLife]

I fully know your defending Catholicism at all cost.

Your loss.

I'm defending Biblical truth - period.

 

[BreadOfLife]

nope, just that, and u wonder why they call it easy believism

Easy-believism is what YOU and the others here preach.
All you have to do is "believe" - but, that's NOT what the Bible teaches.

BIBLICAL faith includes . . .

- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

Jesus NEVER said it was going to be "easy" or "simple".
He only promised that it would be difficult and that we would suffer . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

faith that produces godly righteousness, and not to save yourself

Not at ALL.
Works (obedience) are an essential element of faith (Matt. 7:21, James 2:14-26).
It is not a "result" of faith.

1 + 1 = 2
2 + 2 = 4
Belief + Works = FAITH

 

[Heb 13:8]

Easy-believism is what YOU and the others here preach.
All you have to do is "believe" - but, that's NOT what the Bible teaches.

BIBLICAL faith includes . . .

- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

Jesus NEVER said it was going to be "easy" or "simple".
He only promised that it would be difficult and that we would suffer . . .

Well #v believing in Rom 10:9 and also our daily walk is not easy , , otherwise more people would come to faith. no,we suffer persecution because He suffered in our place not because we save our self through our suffering

 

[Heb 13:8]

Not at ALL.
Works (obedience) are an essential element of faith (Matt. 7:21, James 2:14-26).
It is not a "result" of faith.

1 + 1 = 3
2 + 2 = 4
Belief + Works = FAITH

Faith that produces godly righteousness, not to save ourselves

 

[justbyfaith]

Belief + Works = FAITH

Romans 4:5-6, But to him that worketh not (i.e. no works), but (+) believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly (i.e. belief), his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

No works + belief = faith, imputed as righteousness!

 

[justbyfaith]

Once again – NONE of the verses you presented state that God will KEEP a person faithful against their will.

No one comes to faith in the first place against their will...and once they believe, that assumes they believe in the existence of hell...reason enough for me to adhere to the faith of Jesus Christ with all my being...and if He also is keeping me through His own power (see 1 Peter 1:5), how can I then fall (see Jude 1:24 (kjv), 2 Peter 1:10 (kjv))?

If, by “Faith”, you mean that we are saved by our belief in Christ and h\His promises – that is NOT supported by Scripture.

It is indeed supported by scripture...for we obtain the promises through faith...Hebrews 11:33... and the promises have to do primarily with everlasting life...1 John 2:25, 1 John 5:11.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well #v believing in Rom 10:9 and also our daily walk is not easy , , otherwise more people would come to faith. no,we suffer persecution because He suffered in our place not because we save our self through our suffering

Faith that produces godly righteousness, not to save ourselves

Romans 10:9 is a FIRST step - NOT the end.
Matt. 7:21 talks about those who depended on Rom. 10:9 and weren't obedient.

Jesus said that we must DO THE WILL of the Father.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No one comes to faith in the first place against their will...and once they believe, that assumes they believe in the existence of hell...reason enough for me to adhere to the faith of Jesus Christ with all my being...and if He also is keeping me through His own power (see 1 Peter 1:5), how can I then fall (see Jude 1:24 (kjv), 2 Peter 1:10 (kjv))?

Correct.
Nobody COMES to faith against their will and nobody STAYS against their will.

We have a free will to do BOTH - and sometimes people leave . . .

It is indeed supported by scripture...for we obtain the promises through faith...Hebrews 11:33... and the promises have to do primarily with everlasting life...1 John 2:25, 1 John 5:11.

No - not in the CONTEXT of Scripture.

AGAIN - your cherry-picking gets you nowhere because there are too many other verses that say just the opposite. Those verses HARMONIZE with the verses you posted - but YOU try to pit them against each other.

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT