Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[BreadOfLife]

No works + belief = faith, imputed as righteousness!

Christ doesn't "impute" His righteousness on us - He MAKES us righteous (James 5:17, Rom. 5:1-11).
We CANNOT enter Heaven :"disguised" as Luther put it "snow-covered dunghills".

God is NOT an idiot and His sacred Word states explicitly that NOTHING impure or imperfect can enter (Rev. 21:27).

 

[justbyfaith]

Romans 10:9 is a FIRST step - NOT the end.
Matt. 7:21 talks about those who depended on Rom. 10:9 and weren't obedient.

Jesus said that we must DO THE WILL of the Father.

Those who truly call on the name of the Lord will do the will of the Father...2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv), Ezekiel 36:25-27 (kjv).

No - not in the CONTEXT of Scripture.

AGAIN - your cherry-picking gets you nowhere because there are too many other verses that say just the opposite. Those verses HARMONIZE with the verses you posted - but YOU try to pit them against each other.

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT

By all means, show us the verses that harmonize with the scriptures I have presented (Don't expect me to do all the work!); and also show us what new insight you have gotten from the harmonizing of these scriptures.

I have said it before and I will say it again: it is a basic principle of hermeneutics that the context of a scripture (whether immediate or topical) never nullifies the truth of the scripture in question as it stands on its own.

You effectively nullify my ability to quote scripture as a proof text by claiming every time that I am taking it out of context (when I am not)...so then, every time you quote scripture to make a point, I say simply to you that you are taking it out of context...and therefore no scripture has any validity any more in any conversation with you because you simply claim that it is taken out of context...I believe that this has to be a logical fallacy even if the fallacy doesn't have a name in the debating world.

Correct.
Nobody COMES to faith against their will and nobody STAYS against their will.

We have a free will to do BOTH - and sometimes people leave . . .

Well, there is no possibility of me ever leaving because I do not have the desire to ever leave...problem solved. If you don't want to stay in the faith then by all means leave the Lord...you don't seem to be happy as a Christian anyway. As for me, He has given me the desire to stay in the flock of Jesus Christ...and I believe that Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv) tells me that I shall not depart from Him or walk away from Him because of the fear of the LORD that He has placed within me...if you don't have that fear in your heart, then you may as well abandon faith today because there is no guarantee that you will not do so at some point in the future...and therefore by staying in the fold you are merely prolonging the inevitable, that you will fall away from Him eventually...so just leave faith in Jesus now because you will do so somewhere down the line...there is no guarantee that you will not and therefore you will always have to fear (unless this is not a cause for fear in you)...but this is a good thing because that fear will serve as a safeguard against falling away, which translates into eternal security, according to Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv)!

I suggest that you look up the verses that I am referencing in the kjv...because I think that you are missing the point of what I am saying because you are not seeing the whole of my argument if you are not looking up the verses.

Those who leave are those who do not have the fear of the LORD within them, so of course the eternal security being spoken of in Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv) is conditional on the fear of the LORD being in your heart...nevertheless it is a promise of scripture that God has given us one way and one heart that we might fear Him for ever.

 

[justbyfaith]

Christ doesn't "impute" His righteousness on us

In Romans 4:3-6...

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.

The theological term impute is an accounting term, and it means to credit to one's account. This is what we see in verses 3, 5, and 6 of this passage. In verse 6, the actual word impute is used; but in verses 3 and 5, the meaning is clear, that righteousness was imputed to Abraham because of his faith, his faith was counted as righteousness.

 

[justbyfaith]

He MAKES us righteous (James 5:17, Rom. 5:1-11).

God is NOT an idiot and His sacred Word states explicitly that NOTHING impure or imperfect can enter (Rev. 21:27).

You are taking those scriptures out of context.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Romans 10:9 is a FIRST step - NOT the end.
Matt. 7:21 talks about those who depended on Rom. 10:9 and weren't obedient.

Jesus said that we must DO THE WILL of the Father.

no matt 7:21 talks about those who work for it. do te will of the Father through the power of the Holy Spirit, and not us who are such good people that fail every day. the word belief and confess are nowhere in Matt 7, but works is

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Heb 13:8]

God is NOT an idiot and His sacred Word states explicitly that NOTHING impure or imperfect can enter (Rev. 21:27).

aren't you glad then you are covered in the blood of the One who is perfect, or do you still ahav to work for whats free

 

[Heb 13:8]

We have a free will to do BOTH - and sometimes people leave . . .

BOL, apostates leave (those who were never born again to begin with). Believers fall from Grace and then return. Its a word game breadman, and you seem to be losing

 

[justbyfaith]

aren't you glad then you are covered in the blood of the One who is perfect, or do you still have to work for whats free?

Thank You Jesus; I don't have to lift a finger in order to save myself! Hebrews 4:10.

Of course there is a labour of love that I exhibit for the sake of the salvation of others (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

 

[Heb 13:8]

Thank You Jesus; I don't have to lift a finger in order to save myself! Hebrews 4:10.

Of course there is a labour of love that I exhibit for the sake of the salvation of others (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

yup there seems to be lot of ignorance and hatred in what Jesus did. you think people would be thankful for te free gift to heav

2For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

 

[justbyfaith]

Faith and belief are synonymous terms.

And another one is trust...which is more of an issue of the heart...whereas faith and believing have to do with the mind primarily; but which can also be done with the heart.

 

[mjrhealth]

Thank You Jesus; I don't have to lift a finger in order to save myself! Hebrews 4:10.

Is not that you dont have to, its just that you cant.

 

[justbyfaith]

Is not that you dont have to, its just that you cant.

It's both.

 

[BreadOfLife]

In Romans 4:3-6...

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.

The theological term impute is an accounting term, and it means to credit to one's account. This is what we see in verses 3, 5, and 6 of this passage. In verse 6, the actual word impute is used; but in verses 3 and 5, the meaning is clear, that righteousness was imputed to Abraham because of his faith, his faith was counted as righteousness.

AGAIN with the cherry-picking.
AGAIN with the complete ignoring pf other verses.

ALL Scripture must harmonize or it is ALL a lie.
ALL SCRIPTURE. The CONTEXT of Scripture tells us that Christ MAKES us righteous before entering Heaven. This is the process of sanctification.

We START the process based on HIS righteousness. That is the grace if INITIAL sanctification.

 

[BreadOfLife]

BOL, apostates leave (those who were never born again to begin with). Believers fall from Grace and then return. Its a word game breadman, and you seem to be losing

What an IGNORANT statement.
Do you even understand what "Apostate" means??

An apostate is a person who repudiates a once deeply-held belief. A person who turns his back on his beliefs. In other words - you CANNOT be an "Apostate" if you were NOT born again to begin with.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You are taking those scriptures out of context.

On the CONTRARY - I am reading them IN CONTEXT with the rest of Scripture and no cherry-picking them as YOU do.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Thank You Jesus; I don't have to lift a finger in order to save myself! Hebrews 4:10.

aren't you glad then you are covered in the blood of the One who is perfect, or do you still ahav to work for whats free

That is complete hogwash and NOT what the Bible teaches.
Jesus said that is you want to be HIS disciple - you must pick up your cross DAILY and follow Him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23).

Scripture ALSO teaches that we must . . .

- Be baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, Mark 6:16, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)

- DO works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)

- Obey his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)

- DO the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)

- Suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

Sitting on your butt and ignoring Christ will NOT save you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

no matt 7:21 talks about those who work for it. do te will of the Father through the power of the Holy Spirit, and not us who are such good people that fail every day. the word belief and confess are nowhere in Matt 7, but works is

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

No - they were disobedient - or verse 21 makes absolutely ZERO sense.
Their works were not done for God's glory - but for theirs.

Don't just QUOTE the Bible.
LEARN what it means . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Those who truly call on the name of the Lord will do the will of the Father...2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv), Ezekiel 36:25-27 (kjv).

By all means, show us the verses that harmonize with the scriptures I have presented (Don't expect me to do all the work!); and also show us what new insight you have gotten from the harmonizing of these scriptures.

I have said it before and I will say it again: it is a basic principle of hermeneutics that the context of a scripture (whether immediate or topical) never nullifies the truth of the scripture in question as it stands on its own.

You effectively nullify my ability to quote scripture as a proof text by claiming every time that I am taking it out of context (when I am not)...so then, every time you quote scripture to make a point, I say simply to you that you are taking it out of context...and therefore no scripture has any validity any more in any conversation with you because you simply claim that it is taken out of context...I believe that this has to be a logical fallacy even if the fallacy doesn't have a name in the debating world.

Well, there is no possibility of me ever leaving because I do not have the desire to ever leave...problem solved. If you don't want to stay in the faith then by all means leave the Lord...you don't seem to be happy as a Christian anyway. As for me, He has given me the desire to stay in the flock of Jesus Christ...and I believe that Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv) tells me that I shall not depart from Him or walk away from Him because of the fear of the LORD that He has placed within me...if you don't have that fear in your heart, then you may as well abandon faith today because there is no guarantee that you will not do so at some point in the future...and therefore by staying in the fold you are merely prolonging the inevitable, that you will fall away from Him eventually...so just leave faith in Jesus now because you will do so somewhere down the line...there is no guarantee that you will not and therefore you will always have to fear (unless this is not a cause for fear in you)...but this is a good thing because that fear will serve as a safeguard against falling away, which translates into eternal security, according to Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv)!

I suggest that you look up the verses that I am referencing in the kjv...because I think that you are missing the point of what I am saying because you are not seeing the whole of my argument if you are not looking up the verses.

Those who leave are those who do not have the fear of the LORD within them, so of course the eternal security being spoken of in Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv) is conditional on the fear of the LORD being in your heart...nevertheless it is a promise of scripture that God has given us one way and one heart that we might fear Him for ever.

The basis of MOST of our dialog on this thread has been the false, man made doctrine of Eternal Security or "OSAS". I have shown that the context of Scripture does NOT support this fallacy.

Cherry-picking Scripture is the ONLY way you can produce any sort of "evidence" for it. Unfortunately for YOU - cherry-picking verses out of context nullifies many other verses of Scripture. For whatever reason - I can't get you to open your eyes and see this error.

As born again followers of Christ, we have a secure position. HOWEVER, we must remain faithful in order that we do not LOSE that secure position. NOWHERE does Scripture guarantee that we will NOT lose faith. ALL of the verses YOU gave talks about the promises for those who REMAIN faithful and that we have the TOOLS to do so.

Not ONE verse states that we are "automatically" going to remain faithful.
Not ONE . . .

 

[Heb 13:8]

What an IGNORANT statement.
Do you even understand what "Apostate" means??

An apostate is a person who repudiates a once deeply-held belief. A person who turns his back on his beliefs. In other words - you CANNOT be an "Apostate" if you were NOT born again to begin with.

Actually you can.

There's two ways I like to properly look at scripture..

1. Through context
2. Through words

Take Luke 8:13 for example. Luke uses the word "believe" (as in believing in vain 1 Cor 15:1-2), but Matthew and Mark use the words "trouble and persecution". Paul also uses the words "trouble and persecution" but in the opposite way. This tells me that Matthew, Mark and Luke are referencing apostates, those who were never born again, those who never had the root of salvation which is Jesus Christ himself and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Matt 13:21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Mark 4:17 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Luke 8:13 The seeds on rocky ground are those who hear the word and receive it with joy, but they have no root. They believe for a season, but in the time of testing, they fall away.

Rom 8:35, 38-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessings.

 

[Heb 13:8]

No - they were disobedient - or verse 21 makes absolutely ZERO sense.
Their works were not done for God's glory - but for theirs.

Don't just QUOTE the Bible.
LEARN what it means . . .

That's right, you see there's a difference btwn a nonbelievers work vs a believers work. one is trying to enter the kingdom, the other is already in the kingdom, so their works will be evidence of crowns and rewards Jhn 3:3