Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[BreadOfLife]

Remember, God is not pleased with your animal sacrifices and filthy works.. youtube(dot)com/watch?v=ModWgnl-oas

What "animal sacrifices" do Catholics take part in, Einstein??

 

[justbyfaith]

If you truly believe that Rom. 3:23 is referring to ALL people – then “ALL” does include Jesus because Rom. 3:23 doesn’t exclude Him.

Now, in understanding that every scripture verse stands alone as a bastion of scriptural truth, it is to be understood that every scripture presents a rule...but that in certain other scriptures there may be an exception to that rule. For example, it is impossible for those who have partaken of the heavenly gift to repent if they fall away (Hebrews 6:1-8); and yet Luke 1:37 tells us that with God nothing shall be impossible...and therefore there may be an exception to the rule presented on either side of the equation.

So, in Romans 3:23, it is clear that all means all; but that Jesus is not included in that all because it is written elsewhere that He was and is without sin; He knew and did no sin. There are no such verses exempting Mary from the rule of Romans 3:23.

You would ALSO have to include infants.
REALLY?? How does an infant sin??
How does an unborn child sin. They are included in “ALL”.
What about the severely retarded who don’t have full use of their faculties?? Do THEY sin??

Yes, everybody sins...even infants (for sin is of the heart, and it amounts to selfishness and independence from God)...see Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3). Even a severely retarded person is not immune to lust and/or being angry with his brother without a cause. Every person born in Adam is born with the DNA of sin...selfishness and independence from God.

Your perverse interpretation of Scripture doesn’t allow you to see when it is using inclusive language like Rom. 3:23. This verse is akin to saying “Everybody in town came to see the parade.” It simply means that MOST Of the town was there.

Another example is when the Magi came to Jerusalem looking for the baby Jesus.
Matt. 2:3 says:
When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and ALL Jerusalem with him.

REALLY??
Was “ALL” of Jerusalem disturbed?? Adults, children – babies??
OR – is this just another case of inclusive language like Rom 3:23??

ONCE again – CONTEXT is like Kryptonite to you Calvinists . . .

I'm certain that you believe this way because you do not want to believe that you yourself are a sinner...if all doesn't mean all in Romans 3:23, then it doesn't have to apply to you. Of course you have to deal with other scripture passages, like 1 John 1:8, Galatians 3:22, Galatians 6:13, Matthew 7:11, Luke 11:13, John 2:24-25, Jeremiah 17:9, etc,

Rev. 21:27 assures us that you cannot enter Heaven until you are PERFECT – which you ain’t.

I beg to differ...Hebrews 10:10, Hebrews 10:14.

I LOVE it when ignorant Calvinists take Rom. 10:9 out of context because it illustrates how little you know of Scripture. As I showed you before – Matt. 7:21 tells us that NOT ALL who call upon His name will be saved but ONLY the one who DOES the Father’s will.

Actually, Romans 10:9 shows more clearly in light of your argument that Romans 10:13 is a reality, that For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved; because it teaches that calling on the name of the Lord does not have to do only with mouthing words, but that you must believe in your heart that God hath raised Jesus from the dead as a part of the deal; and that this is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10).

Again, Matthew 15:8 shows that some who "call on the name of the Lord" are only giving lip service, and thus they are not truly calling on His name, but only in pretense. However, those who truly call on His name shall be saved...and this means that they will be made into new creatures in Christ, whose inclination is to obey the Lord. He gives them a new heart and a new spirit and a new heart, and will cause them to walk in His statutes and in His judgments (Ezekiel 36:25-27)...it is God who works within them both to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

Thus everyone who truly calls on the name of the Lord will subsequently do the will of the Father.

CONTRADICTION RECONCILED.

 

[justbyfaith]

Not at ALL.

I conclude that you are not reading these passages with any level of understanding.

 

[justbyfaith]

John 10:27-30 talks about the fact that nobody can take us away from God – which is true. You will NOT be able to blame ANYBODY for walking away from God when you are judged.

Because His for ever fear is in my heart, I shall not depart (i.e. walk away) from Him; and I also shall not come into condemnation (be judged negatively)...John 5:24.

 

[justbyfaith]

Because they're not OBEDIENT.
We can be saved only through our COOPERATION with God's grace.

Yes, the cooperation that is required is that we surrender to the grace of God...we receive Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.

No amount of works is going to cut it in order to save you if He isn't your Lord and Saviour...those would be dead works apart from faith (Hebrews 6:1).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Now, in understanding that every scripture verse stands alone as a bastion of scriptural truth, it is to be understood that every scripture presents a rule...but that in certain other scriptures there may be an exception to that rule. For example, it is impossible for those who have partaken of the heavenly gift to repent if they fall away (Hebrews 6:1-8); and yet Luke 1:37 tells us that with God nothing shall be impossible...and therefore there may be an exception to the rule presented on either side of the equation.

So, in Romans 3:23, it is clear that all means all; but that Jesus is not included in that all because it is written elsewhere that He was and is without sin; He knew and did no sin. There are no such verses exempting Mary from the rule of Romans 3:23.

Yes, everybody sins...even infants (for sin is of the heart, and it amounts to selfishness and independence from God)...see Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3). Even a severely retarded person is not immune to lust and/or being angry with his brother without a cause. Every person born in Adam is born with the DNA of sin...selfishness and independence from God.

I'm certain that you believe this way because you do not want to believe that you yourself are a sinner...if all doesn't mean all in Romans 3:23, then it doesn't have to apply to you. Of course you have to deal with other scripture passages, like 1 John 1:8, Galatians 3:22, Galatians 6:13, Matthew 7:11, Luke 11:13, John 2:24-25, Jeremiah 17:9, etc,

You claim that Mary’s sinlessness is NOT mentioned in Scripture – but it IS. It is also alluded to in the comparisons between the Ark of the Covenant and Mary, Ark of the NEW Covenant.

When the Angel visited Mary, St. Luke - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - used the Greek word, Kecharitomene, to describe the angel’s greeting of Mary. He didn’t call her “Mary”, but “Kecharitomene” (Luke 1:28), which is the perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with permanent result. It translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”

In the Old Testament, the Ark of the Covenant was the vessel that carried symbols of the word of God. The Ark prefigured Mary, who was the Ark of the New Covenant and actually carried GOD in her womb. The first Ark was lined with pure gold and other pure materials and was blessed so as not to be defiled. It was not even to be touched for penalty of death. How much MORE pure and undefiled would Mary have to be to carry God incarnate within her?

As for your statement that infants and unborn children sin – that is compete nonsense and a perversion of Scripture.

Sin requires our knowledge and consent. Babies and unborn children don’t have that. It also requires use of one’s faculties and ability to reason – and the severely retarded don’t have THAT.

 

[justbyfaith]

As for your statement that infants and unborn children sin – that is compete nonsense and a perversion of Scripture.

Scripture, which, apparently, you didn't even look up...because the scripture is plain on this issue (see 2 Corinthians 3:12 (kjv)) in the verses that I referenced.

Sin requires our knowledge and consent. Babies and unborn children don’t have that.

Sin is passed down to us from our representative, Adam. Sin is defined in two ways in the Bible: 1) it is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). In this sense you are right. However, 2) it is the indwelling factor, and element within us that inclines us towards sinful behaviour (1 John 1:8, Romans 7:18). In this sense, babies and unborn children have inherited it from Adam...see Romans 5:12.

It also requires use of one’s faculties and ability to reason – and the severely retarded don’t have THAT.

I can be angry with my brother without a cause and be completely devoid of reason...I can also lust after a woman in my heart and no reasoning is required.

“Kecharitomene” (Luke 1:28),

It simply means "highly favoured' which does not denote sinless perfection on Mary's part. Next thing you'll be saying that Mary died on the Cross for our sins...fact is, she doesn't need to be sinless for the sake of any kind of sound doctrine...because Jesus is the One who died for us...not Mary.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Because His for ever fear is in my heart, I shall not depart (i.e. walk away) from Him; and I also shall not come into condemnation (be judged negatively)...John 5:24.

The Bible doesn’t say this – in CONTEXT.

I’ve ALREADY shown you several verses that show born-again, converted Christians with an EPIGNOSIS of Christ who are in danger of walking away from God and LOSING it all.

Until you come to terms with those verses – you are living in denial . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, the cooperation that is required is that we surrender to the grace of God...we receive Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.
No amount of works is going to cut it in order to save you if He isn't your Lord and Saviour...those would be dead works apart from faith (Hebrews 6:1).

That may be what YOU believe – but that’s NOT what the Bible says – in CONTEXT.
There’s that “scary” word again . . .

James says plainly that obedience and works are an essential element of faith – NOT simply an after effect (James 2:14-26).
Matt. 7:21 explicitly states that we must be DOERS of God’s will – and NOT just “believers” of it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Scripture, which, apparently, you didn't even look up...because the scripture is plain on this issue (see 2 Corinthians 3:12 (kjv)) in the verses that I referenced.

Sin is passed down to us from our representative, Adam. Sin is defined in two ways in the Bible: 1) it is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). In this sense you are right. However, 2) it is the indwelling factor, and element within us that inclines us towards sinful behaviour (1 John 1:8, Romans 7:18). In this sense, babies and unborn children have inherited it from Adam...see Romans 5:12.

I can be angry with my brother without a cause and be completely devoid of reason...I can also lust after a woman in my heart and no reasoning is required.

The SIN NATURE is passed down from Adam.
NONE of us are born sinning. We are born into sin – or the proclivity towards it. This is called “concupiscence”.

No baby actually sins. That requires full knowledge, consent and the ability to reason.
A baby possesses NONE of those elements.

You READ Scripture but you don't UNDERSTAND it.

It simply means "highly favoured' which does not denote sinless perfection on Mary's part. Next thing you'll be saying that Mary died on the Cross for our sins...fact is, she doesn't need to be sinless for the sake of any kind of sound doctrine...because Jesus is the One who died for us...not Mary.

No - it translates as "completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace".

Mary doesn't NEED to be sinless - and for that matter - the Ark didn't NEED to be pure and undefiled.
It's simply the way God CHOSE to do it.

NT fulfillments are ALWAYS more glorious and perfect than their OT Types - without exception.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I beg to differ...Hebrews 10:10, Hebrews 10:14.

HOGWASH.

AGAIN you fail to understand the context of Scripture.
Peter wrote wisely about people like YOU when he wrote:

2 Pet. 3:16
His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

The Bible says that we are STILL SINNERS (1 Tim. 1:15, James 5:15-16, 1 John 1:8). We cannot be perfect if we STILL sin. In the CONTEXT of Scripture (I know you HATE that word) Heb. 10:10 and Heb. 10:14 are speaking to the fact that CHRIST is perfect and CHRIST made a perfect sacrifice that makes US holy.

Actually, Romans 10:9 shows more clearly in light of your argument that Romans 10:13 is a reality, that For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved; because it teaches that calling on the name of the Lord does not have to do only with mouthing words, but that you must believe in your heart that God hath raised Jesus from the dead as a part of the deal.

Again, Matthew 15:8 shows that some who "call on the name of the Lord" are only giving lip service, and thus they are not truly calling on His name, but only in pretense. However, those who truly call on His name shall be saved...and this means that they will be made into new creatures in Christ, whose inclination is to obey the Lord. He gives them a new heart and a new spirit and a new heart, and will cause them to walk in His statutes and in His judgments (Ezekiel 36:25-27)...it is God who works within them both to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

Thus everyone who truly calls on the name of the Lord will subsequently do the will of the Father.

CONTRADICTION RECONCILED.

And Matt. 7:21 and James 2:14-26 flush your ENTIRE argument right down the toilet.

CONTEXT is NOT your friend . . .

 

[justbyfaith]

The Bible doesn’t say this – in CONTEXT.

I’ve ALREADY shown you several verses that show born-again, converted Christians with an EPIGNOSIS of Christ who are in danger of walking away from God and LOSING it all.

Until you come to terms with those verses – you are living in denial . . .

I have already shown you that this is explained by the fact that the recipients of the promises (i.e. John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 28:20) are the same people who fear the LORD enough to heed the warnings...without heeding the warnings, the promises wouldn't come into effect...because they work in our lives because we heed the warnings. In other words, people do not fall away because of and when they exhort one another daily lest any of them depart from the faith because of an evil heart of unbelief...because the body of Christ is working to keep everyone in the safe zone...i.e. we are heeding the warnings...therefore, because love never fails, we cannot help but succeed at keeping each other in the safe zone...because we are heeding the warnings and exhorting one another daily in order to keep each other in the safe zone.

That may be what YOU believe – but that’s NOT what the Bible says – in CONTEXT.
There’s that “scary” word again . . .

Consider how context applies to Hosea 11:1...as a matter of fact, Matthew (in Matthew 2:15), under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, takes that scripture out of its original context, in which "God's son" refers to Israel...and applies it to Jesus...because in the New Testament the Holy Spirit testifies that Jesus is the Son of God.

Also, in 2 Corinthians 9:6, the immediate context speaks of financial sowing and reaping. But if you compare scripture with scripture, you can come up with the valid scriptural application (by comparing to Luke 8:11) that when the seed is the word of God, if we sow sparingly we will reap sparingly, and if we sow bountifully we will reap bountifully...I would not do without that interpretation/application for the world! My ministry is what it is today because of it.

James says plainly that obedience and works are an essential element of faith – NOT simply an after effect (James 2:14-26).
Matt. 7:21 explicitly states that we must be DOERS of God’s will – and NOT just “believers” of it.

Yet Romans 4:5-6 would teach us that the Lord imputes righteousness to us apart from works.

I reconcile it like this. I am not going to be able to obtain a transformation of character by giving $5 to the poor: or even $1,000,000 for that matter. But God will regenerate and renew me in the Holy Ghost if I simply put my faith and trust in what Jesus did for me on the Cross (see Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5). When I find out that I am forgiven much, my response to the Lord is that I will love Him much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19); and this will produce obedience in my life (1 John 3:18). But no amount of doing good works, if I am attempting to be acceptable to God by them and through them, will suffice in order to earn approval and acceptance before the Lord. All of my righteousnesses are as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).

No baby actually sins.

What about when an adult, in the middle of a store, begins to cry uncontrollably and saying that he wants you to feed him milk? Or that you must give him his food for the week and you must be the one to pay for it because he is not going to...but that he is going to keep crying until you purchase for him his food? According to your understanding, he is completely blameless...

We excuse babies because they are helpless for crying when they are hungry...and we teach them that it is not acceptable to do the same as they grow older...but the driving force behind their crying for milk is sin...such a baby is not trusting in the Lord that the milk will be provided and is crying out of selfishness...as it grows older, instead of crying it might say, "Give me my food!"...selfishness and sin...not acceptable.

 

[justbyfaith]

And Matt. 7:21 and James 2:14-26 flush your ENTIRE argument right down the toilet.

Not really...

Yet Romans 4:5-6 would teach us that the Lord imputes righteousness to us apart from works.

I reconcile it like this. I am not going to be able to obtain a transformation of character by giving $5 to the poor: or even $1,000,000 for that matter. But God will regenerate and renew me in the Holy Ghost if I simply put my faith and trust in what Jesus did for me on the Cross (see Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5). When I find out that I am forgiven much, my response to the Lord is that I will love Him much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19); and this will produce obedience in my life (1 John 3:18). But no amount of doing good works, if I am attempting to be acceptable to God by them and through them, will suffice in order to earn approval and acceptance before the Lord. All of my righteousnesses are as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).

.
.
.

HOGWASH.

AGAIN you fail to understand the context of Scripture.
Peter wrote wisely about people like YOU when he wrote:

2 Pet. 3:16
His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

God bless you, my friend.

 

[justbyfaith]

CONTEXT is NOT your friend . . .

Both immediate and topical context are my very best friend...they have given me more insight and understanding as I have read through the scriptures a book at a time, than if I had played Bible roullette from day to day...that is for completely sure!

 

[CoreIssue]

Because they're not OBEDIENT.
We can be saved only through our COOPERATION with God's grace.

Because it was never offered to them. The blood is only for humans.

They were created perfect flesh and blood, like the angels were created perfect spirits. Then they chose to rebel.

To me, it is all part of God being able to say at the white throne judgment you are without excuse.

He created perfect spirit beings that do not die. Perfect flesh beings do not die. But many rebelled.

He created Adam and Eve, who were innocent, not knowing what sin was. They rebelled.

Now there is humanity. Not perfect but with the ability to achieve perfection. Most remain in sin.

So God created what I believe to be every alternative to show in every alternative free will means some fail and some succeed.

Cooperation in Catholicism means works for salvation.

 

[justbyfaith]

Cooperation in Catholicism means works for salvation.

dead works...Hebrews 6:1.

 

[Heb 13:8]

So, YOU are perfect??

Nope, we are being made perfect through His final sacrifice on the cross. Many won't receive it though, os they work for it

 

[Heb 13:8]

Because they're not OBEDIENT.
We can be saved only through our COOPERATION with God's grace.

No BOL, we are saved only through belief. Knowing God vs accepting the free gift. What will you choose?

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

 

[Heb 13:8]

What "animal sacrifices" do Catholics take part in, Einstein??

Obeying God to save yourselves is no better than the Jews at the alter boy

 

[justbyfaith]

Nope, we are being made perfect through His final sacrifice on the cross. Many won't receive it though, so they work for it

Jesus sees the finished product as He looks at us presently; and also, the new man is perfect; in that the limitless, infinite love of God is shed abroad in the heart of the one who is born again (Romans 5:5, Ephesians 3:19-20).