Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[Enoch111]

If you think you choose to save yourself through obedience, it is in legalistic self righteousness

Typical Calvinistic nonsense. No one saves themselves.

You need to know that OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL is a requirement for salvation. It is also called *the obedience of faith*.

ROMANS 16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

God COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent.
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)

God COMMANDS all men everywhere to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:31)
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1 John 3:23)

COMMANDMENTS ARE TO BE OBEYED
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16)

 

[Josiah]

Your faith and concern is proof he saved you.

Quote please.

Where does God say He only gives faith to those whom Jesus died for?

Isn't that perfect "backwards thinking (unless you have the verse, "God only gives faith to those for whom Christ died.")?

The Bible says Christ died for all. It doesn't say God gives faith to all.

Those with faith embrace/apprehend/trust/rely on this - and thus benefit from it.



.

 

[Josiah]

You need to know that OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL is a requirement for salvation.

Then self saves self by our own obedience?

I disagree. I hold that Jesus is the Savior.

Yes, Romans 16 speaks of an "obedience of faith" but that requires faith... faith that is obedient, not obedience that is rewarded with faith.

 

[Enoch111]

Yes, Romans 16 speaks of an "obedience of faith" but that requires faith... faith that is obedient, not obedience that is rewarded with faith.

Did you miss the context (which was clearly posted)?
...according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ...

The Gospel is the preaching of Jesus Christ, and after the Gospel has been preached what do we see? ...the commandment of the everlasting God...

And what is that commandment for? ...the obedience of faith...

And what is the obedience of faith? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Every sinner must respond to the Gospel with (1) repentance toward God and (2) faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. And that is exactly what Paul was preaching all along: And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, [1] repentance toward God, and [2] faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:20,21)

 

[justbyfaith]

1Ti 2:5, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Ti 2:6, Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Therefore love never fails...to give man a choice in the matter of whether he will receive Christ as Saviour.

 

[Dave L]

Quote please.

Where does God say He only gives faith to those whom Jesus died for?

Isn't that perfect "backwards thinking (unless you have the verse, "God only gives faith to those for whom Christ died.")?

The Bible says Christ died for all. It doesn't say God gives faith to all.

Those with faith embrace/apprehend/trust/rely on this - and thus benefit from it.



.

The bible says Christ died for the whole world = Jews and gentiles. Not every person. If he did, all would be saved.

 

[Dave L]

Typical Calvinistic nonsense. No one saves themselves.

You need to know that OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL is a requirement for salvation. It is also called *the obedience of faith*.

ROMANS 16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

God COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent.
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)

God COMMANDS all men everywhere to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:31)
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1 John 3:23)

COMMANDMENTS ARE TO BE OBEYED
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16)

If the gospel is a law you must choose to obey, as you make it out to be, then you save yourself through self-righteousness.

 

[Josiah]

Did you miss the context (which was clearly posted)?
...according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ...

The Gospel is the preaching of Jesus Christ, and after the Gospel has been preached what do we see? ...the commandment of the everlasting God...

And what is that commandment for? ...the obedience of faith...

And what is the obedience of faith? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Every sinner must respond to the Gospel with (1) repentance toward God and (2) faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. And that is exactly what Paul was preaching all along: And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, [1] repentance toward God, and [2] faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:20,21)

Romans 16 NEVER REMOTELY says that Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few. And it never says that the dead, atheistic enemy of God saves himself by his own acts of obedience (thus salvation by works, the savior is self).

Yes. Justification requires faith. But we must not INSERT that each dead person just gives this to self. Not only does Romans 16 NOT remotely say that, but earlier, Paul says that NO ONE can even say the word "Jesus is Lord" (with meaning) unless the Holy Spirit so empowers. Paul's whole theology is a repudiation of the view that self saves self, that our own acts of obedience is what saves.

AND it's important to not mix what CHRISTIANS are to do with what causes one to become a Christian, mixing Justification with Sanctification, Gospel with law.




.

 

[Josiah]

The bible says Christ died for the whole world = Jews and gentiles. Not every person. If he did, all would be saved.

The Bible never, ever says that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few. The entire dogma of the "L" is missing in the Bible, as hyper-Calvinists have been proving for over 400 years. They must totally INSERT it where it doesn't exist.


Please show how these verses state that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few" (and thus, probably not you or me). READ them. Read the words THERE rather than deleting some and inserting opposite words or words that largely negate what is taught.


1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

1 Timothy 2:6

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so much more...

Contrast with the number of verses that state, "Jesus died for ONLY a few" (none)


There is a reason why the vast, vast majority of Christians repudiate this horrible doctrine.... it is held by only a tiny minority of Calvinists. It simply contradicts God's clear and bold teaching.... and means that faith is irrelevant and assurance is impossible. It simply means that he with faith has NO CLUE as to whether he is saved because God's mercy, grace, love, forgiveness are for a minority of unspecified persons (and probably includes self), Jesus died for only a minority of unspecifided people so probably that doesn't include self. One may have faith in Christ... but Christ likely is not for them, thus their faith is grasping at absolute emptiness.




.

 

[Dave L]

The Bible never, ever says that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few. The entire dogma of the "L" is missing in the Bible, as hyper-Calvinists have been proving for over 400 years. They must totally INSERT it where it doesn't exist.


Please show how these verses state that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few" (and thus, probably not you or me). READ them. Read the words THERE rather than deleting some and inserting opposite words or words that largely negate what is taught.


1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

1 Timothy 2:6

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so much more...

Contrast with the number of verses that state, "Jesus died for ONLY a few" (none)


There is a reason why the vast, vast majority of Christians repudiate this horrible doctrine.... it is held by only a tiny minority of Calvinists. It simply contradicts God's clear and bold teaching.... and means that faith is irrelevant and assurance is impossible. It simply means that he with faith has NO CLUE as to whether he is saved because God's mercy, grace, love, forgiveness are for a minority of unspecified persons (and probably includes self), Jesus died for only a minority of unspecifided people so probably that doesn't include self. One may have faith in Christ... but Christ likely is not for them, thus their faith is grasping at absolute emptiness.




.

The doctrine of election limits the atonement. Jesus prayed only for those whom the Father gave to him. And did not pray for the world.

“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.” (John 17:9) (KJV 1900)

And He told the Pharisees the reason they did not believe is because he died only for his sheep and they were not his sheep.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11) (KJV 1900)
“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26) (KJV 1900) Being an atoned for sheep precedes faith.

The world = Jews and gentiles alike. Salvation before was only of the Jews and a few Jewish converts.

 

[Josiah]

The doctrine of election limits the atonement. Jesus prayed only for those whom the Father gave to him. And did not pray for the world.

No.

The doctrine of election does not teach that Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few. At most in that manner, it says that God causes some to be saved. They are not the same.... they aren't even related (unless, AGAIN, you just delete faith from having any role in justification)

“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.” (John 17:9) (KJV 1900)

Again NOTHING remotely that states, 'Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few." Jesus is praying for the CHURCH. And those in the church have the gift of faith. The church is made up of those who have faith.



Read the following..... please don't delete or insert any words, just accept what God teaches.

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

1 Timothy 2:6

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so much more...

Contrast with the number of verses that state, "Jesus died for ONLY a few" (none)


Thank you.


- Josiah



.

 

[Dave L]

No.

The doctrine of election does not teach that Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few. At most in that manner, it says that God causes some to be saved. They are not the same.... they aren't even related (unless, AGAIN, you just delete faith from having any role in justification)





Again NOTHING remotely that states, 'Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few." Jesus is praying for the CHURCH. And those in the church have the gift of faith. The church is made up of those who have faith.



Read the following..... please don't delete or insert any words, just accept what God teaches.

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

1 Timothy 2:6

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so much more...

Contrast with the number of verses that state, "Jesus died for ONLY a few" (none)


Thank you.


- Josiah



.

Jesus told the Pharisees they didn't believe because he didn't die for them making them his sheep. Are you calling Jesus a liar?

 

[Josiah]

Dave,

You are pumping a LOT of eisegesis into John 10:26... and of course, just ignoring all the MANY verses that flat-out, verbatim, undeniably contradict this invented dogma of a few hyper-Calvinists.

Who are the sheep God gives to Jesus? Christians - those with faith. Again, if you stop circumventing faith, if you end deleting faith from having any relevance, it's pretty obvious.

Here's what one Calvinist commentary says (John Gill): "But ye believe not In me, as the Messiah: because ye are not of my sheep; they were not among the sheep given him by his Father, were they, they would have come to him; that is, have believed in him, they were not the chosen of God, predestinated unto eternal life; for as many as are ordained of God to eternal happiness, do believe in God's own time, ( Acts 13:48 ) ; but these not being the elect of God, had not the faith of God's elect." I don't totally agree with this, but he certainly doesn't support your spin and sees NOTHING of the "L" here. But then he's not totally dismissing the issue of faith.

This is why I can't find your allusion to this verse in any Reformed Dogmatics. "Sheep" are His believers, His followers, His family, His oikos, His church. This doesn't say ANYTHING about the "L" of TULIP (which is why I can't find it referenced in any Reformed doctrine book). Yes, only those with faith are His flock.... and only those with faith benefit from His work... but this verse does not say "Jesus died ONLY for a FEW." Did He die for His sheep? OF COURSE, but your dogma is entirely missing here.... there is no "ONLY." If I posted, "Ford Mustangs are cars" that would not prove "ONLY Ford Mustangs are cars." You are inserting something just not there.


Now, consider the following.... read the words..... delete none, insert none.... just believe...


1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

1 Timothy 2:6

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so much more...

Contrast with the number of verses that state, "Jesus died for ONLY a few" (as you know, there are none)

Consider that, my friend.


Thank you.


- Josiah




.

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm sorry, @Dave L, but you are not one of the elect; and therefore you cannot enter into the kingdom no matter what you do or how hard you may try.

 

[Dave L]

I'm sorry, @Dave L, but you are not one of the elect; and therefore you cannot enter into the kingdom no matter what you do or how hard you may try.

What makes you think you are one of God's elect?

 

[Dave L]

Dave,

You are pumping a LOT of eisegesis into John 10:26... and of course, just ignoring all the MANY verses that flat-out, verbatim, undeniably contradict this invented dogma of a few hyper-Calvinists.

Who are the sheep God gives to Jesus? Christians - those with faith. Again, if you stop circumventing faith, if you end deleting faith from having any relevance, it's pretty obvious.

Here's what one Calvinist commentary says (John Gill): "But ye believe not In me, as the Messiah: because ye are not of my sheep; they were not among the sheep given him by his Father, were they, they would have come to him; that is, have believed in him, they were not the chosen of God, predestinated unto eternal life; for as many as are ordained of God to eternal happiness, do believe in God's own time, ( Acts 13:48 ) ; but these not being the elect of God, had not the faith of God's elect." I don't totally agree with this, but he certainly doesn't support your spin and sees NOTHING of the "L" here. But then he's not totally dismissing the issue of faith.

This is why I can't find your allusion to this verse in any Reformed Dogmatics. "Sheep" are His believers, His followers, His family, His oikos, His church. This doesn't say ANYTHING about the "L" of TULIP (which is why I can't find it referenced in any Reformed doctrine book). Yes, only those with faith are His flock.... and only those with faith benefit from His work... but this verse does not say "Jesus died ONLY for a FEW." Did He die for His sheep? OF COURSE, but your dogma is entirely missing here.... there is no "ONLY." If I posted, "Ford Mustangs are cars" that would not prove "ONLY Ford Mustangs are cars." You are inserting something just not there.


Now, consider the following.... read the words..... delete none, insert none.... just believe...


1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

1 Timothy 2:6

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so much more...

Contrast with the number of verses that state, "Jesus died for ONLY a few" (as you know, there are none)

Consider that, my friend.


Thank you.


- Josiah




.

If the atonement pays for all sins, all will be saved. And we know this is not the case. So did the atonement pay for some of the sins of all people? Or did it pay for all of the sins of some people?

 

[Josiah]

What makes you think you are one of God's elect?

Dave,

This thread is not about Election (the U of TULIP), it's about whether Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few (and thus, odds are, not you or me)? THAT'S the issue before us.


1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

1 Timothy 2:6

John 3:14-16


Now, list for us the verses that state "Jesus died ONLY for a few." In over 400 years, no hyper-Calvinists have found any such verse but ....

If the atonement pays for all sins, all will be saved

1. Notice you have no Scripture.


2. Notice the complete, total denial of faith, the complete abandonment of faith as having any role in justification. Notice my above post to you where even a strong Calvinist disagrees with you on this.


3. I disagree.... so do probably 99% of Calvinists... faith is NOT irrelevant. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide is NOT wrong. Faith DOES have a role in justification. The divine gift of faith is what apprehends/embraces/trusts/relies on the atoning work of Christ and thus it is applied to the individual. The lack of faith is why some aren't justified, which is why the call of the Bible is for people to believe, not for Jesus to stop being so cheap and limited and stingy in His work.


4. Universalism (the belief that salvation has nothing to do with faith; precisely, all are saved regardless of their faith) is an out-growth of hyper-Calvinism. For the very reason you reveal, this abandonment of faith. The Universalists simply realized the obvious, the "L" is wrong, Scripture teaches the opposite. But their fundamental error is also yours, the elimination of faith. Friend, if you go to New England, you'll find many Universalist churches... and you'll learn, they all began as hyper-Calvinists churchs (including the church founded by the Pilgrims in Plymouth).


5. Traditionally.... as seen in the Fathers, in the Council of Orange, etc.... Election was applied to FAITH, to the issue of God's giving of FAITH. These very, very few latter-day hyper-Calvinists..... deleting faith.... simply applied it to the Cross instead, inventing the "L" - in direct contradiction of Scripture and all Christian faith prior to these very few, latter-day, hyper-Calvinists.




Again, consider the MANY Scriptures that verbatim, flat-out say Jesus died for all. And consider that in 400+ years, no hyper-Calvinists has found a verse that says Christ died for ONLY a few.



Thank you


- Josiah




.

 

[Dave L]

Dave,

This thread is not about Election (the U of TULIP), it's about whether Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few (and thus, odds are, not you or me)? THAT'S the issue before us.

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

1 Timothy 2:6

John 3:14-16


Now, list for us the verses that state "Jesus died ONLY for a few." In over 400 years, no hyper-Calvinists have found any such verse but ....

I just quoted John 10:ff Jesus did not die for the Pharisees in his immediate audience. That is why they did not believe.

 

[Josiah]

Dave,

See posts 873 and 877.



.

 

[justbyfaith]

What makes you think you are one of God's elect?

His Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God.