Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[Josiah]

Irresistible Grace (inherent in 1 Corinthians 13:8a and Revelation 19:6 (kjv)) demands that there is either Limited Atonement or Universalism..

I reject Universalism; therefore Limited Atonement is my belief on the matter.

Those two radical, unbiblical inventions in the late 16th Century - one by hyper-Calvinists and one by hyper-Arminianists - are not the only two options!

Both NEED to say that because it's easy for each to rebuke the other, then both use the very illogical and silly argument that because the other is wrong, ERGO they MUST be right (end of discussion). It's a bit like saying "Because that car is not white, I MUST be right hat it's black and need not substantiate my position." Maybe it's red, lol

Historic Christianity does not eliminate faith from the discussion. When faith is regarded as relevant, then we find another option. Some have faith to apprehend His death (and thus benefit) and some don't (and thus don't). It's not that Jesus is lacking in His work, it's that some people are lacking in faith in that work. God doesn't issue fake, fraudulent, not-paid-for gift cards, some just don't use them.

 

[justbyfaith]

Love will not fail to apprehend those whom the Lord decides to apprehend.

1Co 13:8

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

The Lord God is Omnipotent.

Rev 19:6

And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

 

[justbyfaith]

Because of what is shown clearly in the above post, Irresistible Grace is a definite reality.

And since it is, either God is going to apprehend every soul; or else God has not chosen to apprehend every soul.

This translates into either 1) Universalism; or 2) Limited Atonement.

If there is indeed a third option, please explain its validity in light of the above post, which shows clearly that Irresistible Grace is the reality of scripture.

 

[Josiah]

The problem is, if Christ died for all and all are not saved, salvation is only for the self righteous and the gospel becomes a law they opt to keep. = Salvation by works.

Salvation by grace saves those who cannot save themselves.

Only if faith is eliminated and regarded as irrelevant to anything. in As hyper-Calvinists are often apt to do

The biblical (and Protestant) position in justification is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. As one doctrine. Note the "Sola FIDE" aspect; it's present, not eliminated. We are justified SOLELY because of God's unmerited, unearned, undeserved grace and mercy in view of Christ, achieved by Christ alone in His incarnation, perfect life, sacrificial death and victorious resurrection as THE one and only and all sufficient Savior, which is apprehended by the individual via the divine gift of faith which trust/relies/embraces the work of Christ and thus benefits from it.

Why some are saved and not others has NOTHING WHATSOEVER do with any merit or works in the receiver. It's all HIS doing. I agree with the ancient Creed that JESUS is THE Savior and that the Holy Spirit is THE Lord and GIVER of life/faith. But the reason some are not saved is not because Jesus was neglectful. It's not because God issues a bunch of Gift Cards but most of them are fake, frauds, empty (which no one can know until they go to use it at those pearly gates).... but simply because some don't have faith, faith that apprehends/trusts/relies/embraces/uses it and thus don't benefit from it. The issue is not that Christ is lacking but that faith is lacking. Now, I avoid Arminianist's heresy on that point, too. Because we don't give self life and faith, God does. The "electing" Calvinists are obsessed about has to do with faith, not Christ.

 

[Dave L]

Only if faith is eliminated and regarded as irrelevant to anything. in As hyper-Calvinists are often apt to do

The biblical (and Protestant) position in justification is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. As one doctrine. Note the "Sola FIDE" aspect; it's present, not eliminated. We are justified SOLELY because of God's unmerited, unearned, undeserved grace and mercy in view of Christ, achieved by Christ alone in His incarnation, perfect life, sacrificial death and victorious resurrection as THE one and only and all sufficient Savior, which is apprehended by the individual via the divine gift of faith which trust/relies/embraces the work of Christ and thus benefits from it.

Why some are saved and not others has NOTHING WHATSOEVER do with any merit or works in the receiver. It's all HIS doing. I agree with the ancient Creed that JESUS is THE Savior and that the Holy Spirit is THE Lord and GIVER of life/faith. But the reason some are not saved is not because Jesus was neglectful. It's not because God issues a bunch of Gift Cards but most of them are fake, frauds, empty (which no one can know until they go to use it at those pearly gates).... but simply because some don't have faith, faith that apprehends/trusts/relies/embraces/uses it and thus don't benefit from it. The issue is not that Christ is lacking but that faith is lacking. Now, I avoid Arminianist's heresy on that point, too. Because we don't give self life and faith, God does. The "electing" Calvinists are obsessed about has to do with faith, not Christ.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have by grace before they can believe.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have by grace before they can believe.

No - one must have the grace to believe before he can have faith.
Faith is MUCH more than just believing.

 

[Dave L]

No - one must have the grace to believe before he can have faith.
Faith is MUCH more than just believing.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)
One must have the Holy Spirit before they can believe.

 

[Josiah]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have by grace before they can believe.

Yup. Faith is a divine gift. And yup, not all have this gift.

Now, how does that prove that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few - and that's why not all are saved?

What verse(s) suggest that the problem is with CHRIST rather than with us? That Jesus was neglectful rather than people?

Traditional Christianity says that God loves all.... Christ died for all.... but not all have faith and thus not all apprehend/embrace/trust/rely upon such and thus don't benefit from it. True, SOME would say people create that faith and others (including myself) say that God gives that faith, but neither changes the point about Jesus dying for all. Whether faith comes from self or God or some combo of the two, it's faith that is the variable.

To frame this in terms of monergism, election impacts who believes since election is focused on individuals,it impacts the giving of faith.

 

[Dave L]

Yup. Faith is a divine gift. And yup, not all have this gift.

Now, how does that prove that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few - and that's why not all are saved?

What verse(s) suggest that the problem is with CHRIST rather than with us? That Jesus was neglectful rather than people?

Traditional Christianity says that God loves all.... Christ died for all.... but not all have faith and thus not all apprehend/embrace/trust/rely upon such and thus don't benefit from it. True, SOME would say people create that faith and others (including myself) say that God gives that faith, but neither changes the point about Jesus dying for all. Whether faith comes from self or God or some combo of the two, it's faith that is the variable.

To frame this in terms of monergism, election impacts who believes since election is focused on individuals,it impacts the giving of faith.

Scripture limits the atonement to those it actually saves.

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” (Acts 20:28) (KJV 1900)

No we know the church is only few. If as you say, Christ purchased all by his blood, the whole world is the church and saved.

 

[BreadOfLife]

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)
One must have the Holy Spirit before they can believe.

WRONG.
Faith is MUCH ore than "believing".

James 2:19 tells us that even the DEMONS "believe". Do THEY have the fruit of the Holy Spirit??
No. FAITH = Belief + Obedience (Works) (James 2:14-26).

The initial grace to believe is given to EVERYBODY - but NOT everybody cooperates with this grace.

 

[Dave L]

WRONG.
Faith is MUCH ore than "believing".

James 2:19 tells us that even the DEMONS "believe". Do THEY have the fruit of the Holy Spirit??
No. FAITH = Belief + Obedience (Works) (James 2:14-26).

The initial grace to believe is given to EVERYBODY - but NOT everybody cooperates with this grace.

Faith enables people to believe in a true sense. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1) (KJV 1900)

Anyone can believe by sight.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Faith enables people to believe in a true sense. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1) (KJV 1900)

Anyone can believe by sight.

Belief leads to faith – NOT the other way around.

You MUST believe before you can have true faith.
TRUE faith requires obedience (Matt. 7:21, James 2:14-26) - and you don’t get obedience from simple belief.

 

[Josiah]

Scripture limits the atonement to those it actually saves.

No one disputes that (well, a few Universalists - which grew out of Calvinism). That's not at all the issue here. The issue is WHY? Is it because Christ was neglectful, His Sacrifice limited and insufficient? OR because faith is limited in those who have it?

BOTH "sides" in this fully reject universalism. It's just that TULIP puts the blame on Jesus and dogmatically insists the Cross is not for all... others simply note that not all have faith and thus not all apprehend/embrace/trust/rely on that Cross and thus don't benefit from it. Note that it is irrelevant AT THIS point whether that faith is a divine gift (my position), a personal choice or some combination of the two, the reality is that not all have faith and THAT'S why not all have justification. God calls us to faith, not for Jesus to be less limited.

I think the non-TULIP side is biblical, and since no one in over 400 years has come up with a verse that says Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few, I think it's not. And I think TULIP causes a terror. If the "L" is right, then no one can ever know (or even guess) if their faith in Christ means anything at all, because while they may be relying on Christ as their Savior, odds are, He's not (and there's no way to know until they approach heaven and learn they've been trusting in a phantom).

No we know the church is only few. If as you say, Christ purchased all by his blood, the whole world is the church and saved.

Only if you eliminate faith, only if you regard faith as irrelevant to the issue of justification. Which is what hyper-Calvinists are apt to do (no wonder a lot of them ended up as universalists).


- Josiah



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[Dave L]

No one disputes that (well, a few Universalists - which grew out of Calvinism). That's not at all the issue here. The issue is WHY? Is it because Christ was neglectful, His Sacrifice limited and insufficient? OR because faith is limited in those who have it?

BOTH "sides" in this fully reject universalism. It's just that TULIP puts the blame on Jesus and dogmatically insists the Cross is not for all... others simply note that not all have faith and thus not all apprehend/embrace/trust/rely on that Cross and thus don't benefit from it.

I think the non-TULIP side is biblical, and since no one in over 400 years has come up with a verse that says Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few, I think it's not. And I think TULIP causes a terror. If the "L" is right, then no one can ever know (or even guess) if their faith in Christ means anything at all, because while they may be relying on Christ as their Savior, odds are, He's not (and there's no way to know until they approach heaven and learn they've been trusting in a phantom).




Only if you eliminate faith, only if you regard faith as irrelevant to the issue of justification. Which is what hyper-Calvinists are apt to do (no wonder a lot of them ended up as universalists).


- Josiah



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Jesus told the pharisees the reason for their unbelief was because he didn't die for them. And Luke says Christ purchased the church with his own blood. So if your idea was correct, the whole world is the church.

 

[Josiah]

Luke says Christ purchased the church with his own blood.

"

Yup. But the entire dogma of the "L" is completely, totally, wholly missing in the verse. The "L" is that Jesus died ONLY for the church. The verse doesn't say that, does it? The verse is entirely missing the whole dogma. It does NOT say, "ONLY."

The illogic of TULIP is often so obvious. If I posted that President Trump is a US citizen, does that prove that ONLY he is a US citizen? If a I posted that a Ford Mustang is a car, does that prove that a Chevy Camaro is not? Or that every car is a Ford Mustang? Or does it simply mean that a Ford Mustang is a car?

And no, it doesn't prove that all the world is the church anymore than my posting that a Ford Mustang is a car proves that all cars are Ford Mustangs.


Josiah


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[Dave L]

"

Yup. But the entire dogma of the "L" is completely, totally, wholly missing. Christ did NOT say, "ONLY." The illogic of TULIP is often so obvious. If I posted that President Trump is a US citizen, does that prove that ONLY he is a US citizen? If a ChI posted that a Ford Mustang is a car, does that prove that a Chevy Camaro is not?

And no, it doesn't prove that all the world is the church anymore than my posting that President Trump is a US citizen proves that all US citizens are Donald Trump.



.

But if Jesus did not die for the pharisees, he did not die for all.

 

[Josiah]

But if Jesus did not die for the pharisees, he did not die for all.

What verse is that, please quote it.

 

[Dave L]

What verse is that, please quote it.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11) (KJV 1900)
“As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.” (John 10:15) (KJV 1900)
“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26) (KJV 1900)

 

[Josiah]

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11) (KJV 1900)
“As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.” (John 10:15) (KJV 1900)
“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26) (KJV 1900)

Not one of them says, "Jesus died not die for the Pharisees" as you claimed.
Not one of them says, "Jesus died only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few."

Note the amazing illogic here. If I said that Ford Mustangs are cars, does that prove that ONLY Ford Mustangs are cars? Or that all cars are Ford Mustangs? Of course not, it's pure silliness, it's very illogical.

And you IMPUTE that "sheep" are made such by virtue of one and only one thing: Jesus' death. More entire eliminating of faith, more regarding faith as entirely irrelevant in justification (sadly, a very common feature of hyper-Calvinism; it's why so many of them ended up in universalism). Dave, faith is not irrelevant and should not be eliminated from any discussion of justification. Yes, those who are not His sheep have not faith. Not, "you are not my sheep because I didn't die for you or most folks, but of course you couldn't know that."


- Josiah


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[Dave L]

Not one of them says, "Jesus died not die for the Pharisees" as you claimed.
Not one of them says, "Jesus died only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few."

Note the amazing illogic here. If I said that Ford Mustangs are cars, does that prove that ONLY Ford Mustangs are cars? Or that all cars are For Mustangs? Of course not, it's pure silliness, it's very illogical.

And you IMPUTE that "sheep" are made such by virtue of one and only thing: Jesus' death. More entire eliminating of faith, more regarding faith as entirely irrelevant in justification.

If Jesus died for the sheep, and they don't believe because they are not the sheep, then how did he die for them?