Literal Vs. Non-Literal

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Helen

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Okay..what about this @marks

The day that your eyes were opened and you and you came to the Lord.
( or whatever term you like to use, save, converted or whatever)

Did you HEAR the Lord call you by just reading the bible, or did something spiritual happen on the inside? A 'connection' to Father.?

I think I know the answer. :)
 

Nancy

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Wealth under the OT was geared to law keeping enjoyed by both believers and unbelievers. The same is true today but with the full revelation of the NT love almost insures we will not have hefty bank accounts in love for those who have need.

If we can be trusted with "much".... He gives the increase...to bless OTHERS with. Bank account large or small ♥.
 
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Nancy

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But love keeps the account empty.

Not in my own experience. He has brought me to a place I was never in before. I was a paycheck to paycheck gal my whole life. Now that I am no longer working, and walking in the Spirit...my own (God's) coffer has grown as He has found fit to bless me. I prayed for a good solid 3-4 years to become a good steward of my blessings, weather it be money, goods, a vehicle...He has answered that prayer loud and clear. I have to bless and bless I do! It has finally become a reality in my life that, to bless others is awesome! And, He always provides ♥. As long as we do not spend our resources on our selfish flesh and worldly desires but, GIVE them to those in need=He just continues to fill to the fullest! That is just my own experience over the last several years. :)
 
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Dave L

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Not in my own experience. He has brought me to a place I was never in before. I was a paycheck to paycheck gal my whole life. Now that I am no longer working, and walking in the Spirit...my own (God's) coffer has grown as He has found fit to bless me. I prayed for a good solid 3-4 years to become a good steward of my blessings, weather it be money, goods, a vehicle...He has answered that prayer loud and clear. I have to bless and bless I do! It has finally become a reality in my life that, to bless others is awesome! And, He always provides ♥. As long as we do not spend our resources on our selfish flesh and worldly desires but, GIVE them to those in need=He just continues to fill to the fullest! That is just my own experience over the last several years. :)
If we love others as our own self. Where do our luxury dollars go?
 

Nancy

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If we love others as our own self. Where do our luxury dollars go?

I do not at all see abundant monetary blessings as "luxury". Simply put, pay it forward cause it ain't yours anyway, lol. And also, "abundant" does not necessarily mean "rich" or well to do either.
 
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Nancy

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I do not at all see abundant monetary blessings as "luxury". Simply put, pay it forward cause it ain't yours anyway, lol. And also, "abundant" does not necessarily mean "rich" or well to do either.

BTW-should Christians have "luxury dollars"?
 

marks

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I do not at all see abundant monetary blessings as "luxury". Simply put, pay it forward cause it ain't yours anyway, lol. And also, "abundant" does not necessarily mean "rich" or well to do either.

2 Corinthians 9:7-12
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

(As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.

Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness

Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.


Much love!
Mark
 
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Nancy

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2 Corinthians 9:7-12
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

(As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.

Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)

Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.


Much love!
Mark

And the Church said Amen! :)
 

marks

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Okay..what about this @marks

The day that your eyes were opened and you and you came to the Lord.
( or whatever term you like to use, save, converted or whatever)

Did you HEAR the Lord call you by just reading the bible, or did something spiritual happen on the inside? A 'connection' to Father.?

I think I know the answer. :)

Well . . .

In my teens, I was extremely interested in knowing the true nature of reality, and studied many different writings, from the Bagavad Gita, the Book of the Hopi, Edgar Cayce, Seth Speaks, I Ching, anything I could get my hands on. I actually wanted to know. I dismissed the Bible out of hand. I had gone to Sunday School (so disparaged by some), and I knew what the basic beliefs of Christianity were.

I was developing well into new agism, even to the point of supernatural occurances. I came home for a family visit staying with my brother.

He had become a Christian. When he went to work, I went to his bookshelf. I read "The Late Great Planet Earth" and "What the World is Coming To". And I learned something that I could not deny. The prophecies were true.

I knew about "prophecy" I'd read many different "prophets". I had read so many different "religious writings", I could tell right away the significant difference between the false prophets and the true prophets. The true prophets were detailed. And everything happened just as they said.

But I know that anyone can say, it was predicted 1000 years ago, and fulfilled 800 years ago, and what is that to me? But describing in detail the world scene literally 1000's of years in advance, to where I could look at the Bible, and read about today, this was way beyond anything I had seen.

And I concluded that the one who says these things has to be outside of them, that is, outside our space/time continuum, that they were interested in us, and that they had much more to say that I had better pay attention to.

I remembered enough to know the Bible states that I am lost to sin, but that Jesus died in my place that I could be saved, which will happen if I will agree that He is to be my rightful Master.

And that's when the real battle began. Because I was having a perfectly splendid time being my own master.

But I couldn't deny the reality of the words set to paper so long ago that describe what I can see with my own eyes.

So after two weeks of turmoil, I aquiesced. I acknowledged that Jesus was in fact the Lord of All, and that I had better start obeying Him. I was baptized, and became a Christian.

Much love!
Mark
 
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VictoryinJesus

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You know, I think I just realized what you are saying here. Reading a Bible looking for what it specifically says is to you a pursuit of the flesh, and is complete unprofitable.

Is that what you mean?

Not sure what you mean by specifically. ‘Complete unprofitable’ no (imo) nothing is ‘complete unprofitable’ to God. Use to hear God as demanding no flesh will glory in His presence. (1 Corinthians 1:28-31). Don’t hear that anymore but hear love in the: no flesh shall glory in His presence which frees from Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Hope in the Lord.
 
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marks

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Not sure what you mean by specifically. ‘Complete unprofitable’ no (imo) nothing is ‘complete unprofitable’ to God. Use to hear God as demanding no flesh will glory in His presence. (1 Corinthians 1:28-31). Don’t hear that anymore but hear love in the: no flesh shall glory in His presence which frees from Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Hope in the Lord.

Hi ViJ,

What I'm thinking is sitting down with my Bible determined to understand what the words and sentences and paragraphs and chapters and book say for themselves, based on the historical meanings of the words the Bible was written with.

And of course no flesh will glory in God's presence, but then, no flesh will ever come to Scripture submitted to it.

When I come to the Bible it is with the determination that:

I will understand the full import of the words written (an ongoing process I assure you)
What the statements mean in terms of God's entire message to mankind (well, it's all an ongoing process)
What God is saying to me personally through these things
I will be changed by what I read.

But all of this is based on coming to understand what He wrote to begin with.

Is that a pursuit of the flesh?

Much love!
Mark
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Hi ViJ,

What I'm thinking is sitting down with my Bible determined to understand what the words and sentences and paragraphs and chapters and bood say for themselves, based on the historical meanings of the words the Bible was written with.

And of course no flesh will glory in God's presence, but then, no flesh will ever come to Scripture submitted to it.

When I come to the Bible it is with the determination that:

I will understand the full import of the words written (an ongoing process I assure you)
What the statements mean in terms of God's entire message to mankind (well, it's all an ongoing process)
What God is saying to me personally through these things
I will be changed by what I read.

But all of this is based on coming to understand what He wrote to begin with.

Is that a pursuit of the flesh?

Much love!
Mark

That is not for me to say. It is between you and God. As far as words; letting Him define them. There was something you said in your post above about prophecy and how it was a turning point for you and you saw He who said these things had to be outside of time and He cares about us. (Sorry tried to quote it but it wouldn’t let me.) I can relate. But for me it is seeing how He incorporates every part of His creation even the smallest and brings it in to teach history(and future) like I’ve never witnessed. I don't doubt you love God or that you are pursuing Him. He does the rest.
 
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marks

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That is not for me to say. It is between you and God. As far as words; letting Him define them. There was something you said in your post above about prophecy and how it was a turning point for you and you saw He who said these things had to be outside of time and He cares about us. (Sorry tried to quote it but it wouldn’t let me.) I can relate. But for me it is seeing how He incorporates every part of His creation even the smallest and brings it in to teach history(and future) like I’ve never witnessed. I don't doubt you love God or that you are pursuing Him. He does the rest.

He has His Own ways with each of us.

Much love!
Mark
 

marks

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Okay..what about this @marks

The day that your eyes were opened and you and you came to the Lord.
( or whatever term you like to use, save, converted or whatever)

Did you HEAR the Lord call you by just reading the bible, or did something spiritual happen on the inside? A 'connection' to Father.?

I think I know the answer. :)

Did I give the answer you thought?

Much love!
Mark
 

VictoryinJesus

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He has His Own ways with each of us.

Much love!
Mark

Yes He does. So many times (too many to count) I’ve let others dictate rather than God. He makes crooked paths straight and leads. Consider John the Baptist and the Son of God. Different paths; the Father leading them both.
 

Helen

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Did I give the answer you thought?

Much love!
Mark

Yes, but not how , or in the words or phrases I expected ... :)

Which proves what we were saying yesterday ...it’s our presentation and phraseology which sometime causes us to think that we disagree ( like with Dave L the other day, then, when he said it differently and elaborated a bit...I totally agreed :D )

So..on so many threads I feel people are arguing when they are just saying the same thing from a different perspective. Like the story of describing an Elephant...one was looking at the head, one at the tail...but it was the same elephant in the picture... :)
 

marks

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Yes, but not how , or in the words or phrases I expected ... :)

Which proves what we were saying yesterday ...it’s our presentation and phraseology which sometime causes us to think that we disagree ( like with Dave L the other day, then, when he said it differently and elaborated a bit...I totally agreed :D )

So..on so many threads I feel people are arguing when they are just saying the same thing from a different perspective. Like the story of describing an Elephant...one was looking at the head, one at the tail...but it was the same elephant in the picture... :)

I think so also. We need to be careful communicators!

Much love!
 
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marks

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I actually think that most of us read the Bible the way I'm talking about.

Let's take an example.

Matthew 16:5-12
5 And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.
6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.


Did this really happen?

Jesus had a conversation with His disciples. They talked about bread and leaven and religious leaders.

Jesus told them to beware the leaven of the Pharisess. They took Him as meaning bread, they forgot to bring bread.

Now, you may say, but look! Jesus is chiding them for being too literal!

Jesus is not chiding them for being literal, but rather for not recognizing what He was talking about. Then He gave them the reasons by which they could know that there was a different meaning, and what that meaning was.

Now. Is this to say that we should not look literally? I think this is to say we should carefully. The disciples didn't listen closely. Jesus was talking about leaven, but He was also talking about the leaven of the Pharisees and Saducees. The disciples apparently grabbed ahold of the one word, "leaven", without giving proper regard to the fulness of what Jesus said. They associated "leaven" with what they commonly thought of - bread. But that's like "interpretation by word association". Jesus says Leaven, we think Bread, and stop hearing what else He says.

But it's not the leaven of bread, but the leaven of the Pharisees. Now. Leaven has a pattern of symbolic use in the Bible, along with passages that tell us how it is used, specifically in this instance that it represents their teaching.

So when we look at this passage, we see an example of the disciples coming to an "overly literal" interpretation, except, that's not really it. What they are really doing is drawing conclusions based on a part taken out of context.

The reality is that they only regarded part of what Jesus had said, not the entire statement.

And when we look at the entire passage, it literally tells us that this leaven is symbolic. We likewise find Jesus literally saying that the meaning of this symbol is the doctine of those religious leaders.

There really were Saducees and Pharisees, they really did have bad teaching, and Jesus was literally warning them about it.

We come to symbolic language, but we know it is so because the text tells us, in direct literal language. We know what the symbols mean because the text tells us, again, in direct literal language.

And so we can conclusively say that this wording is symbolic, because the text tells us that in a literal straightforward fashion.

Another example . . .

Revelation 12:1-3
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.


Where the KJV translates "wonder", the word used is "semeion", which, if you look at it's pattern of usage in the Bible, this is something special, something unusual, meant to communicate or authenticate. Liddell-Scott-Jones defines this word as a "mark by which a thing is known", "sign from the gods, omen", "sign or signal to do a thing, made by flags", it goes on.

If I look at word definitions, this is a sign. If I look at Biblical usage, this is again a sign, and I can point to places in the Bible that show this usage.

"No sign shall be given by the sign of Jonah."
"You can't read the signs of the times"
" . . . and asked Him to show them a sign from heaven."
"signs and wonders"


and so on.

So John saw a great sign in heaven, a woman . . .

So we know that this woman is not meant to be understood that John looked up in the sky and just saw a girl. No, this was a special seeing of something that was a sign, a mark or token or sign meant to express something.

How is it that we would be able to know what is being expressed?

And by what means might we all come to the same understanding of these passages? How can we know we've got it right?

Much love!
Mark
 
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