Literal Vs. Non-Literal

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marks

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That is not for me to say. It is between you and God. As far as words; letting Him define them. There was something you said in your post above about prophecy and how it was a turning point for you and you saw He who said these things had to be outside of time and He cares about us. (Sorry tried to quote it but it wouldn’t let me.) I can relate. But for me it is seeing how He incorporates every part of His creation even the smallest and brings it in to teach history(and future) like I’ve never witnessed. I don't doubt you love God or that you are pursuing Him. He does the rest.

I've read this a number of times now, and I see God's revelation is His creation, but I always want to let the Bible be what forms my views and ideas and such as I look at His creation, rather than my perceptions of His creation altering what I read in His book.

I believe it is written that we can see His power and glory in His creation. But for me the Scripture remains over all.

Much love!
mark
 
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Nancy

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I actually think that most of us read the Bible the way I'm talking about.

Let's take an example.

Matthew 16:5-12
5 And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.
6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.


Did this really happen?

Jesus had a conversation with His disciples. They talked about bread and leaven and religious leaders.

Jesus told them to beware the leaven of the Pharisess. They took Him as meaning bread, they forgot to bring bread.

Now, you may say, but look! Jesus is chiding them for being too literal!

Jesus is not chiding them for being literal, but rather for not recognizing what He was talking about. Then He gave them the reasons by which they could know that there was a different meaning, and what that meaning was.

Now. Is this to say that we should not look literally? I think this is to say we should carefully. The disciples didn't listen closely. Jesus was talking about leaven, but He was also talking about the leaven of the Pharisees and Saducees. The disciples apparently grabbed ahold of the one word, "leaven", without giving proper regard to the fulness of what Jesus said. They associated "leaven" with what they commonly thought of - bread. But that's like "interpretation by word association". Jesus says Leaven, we think Bread, and stop hearing what else He says.

But it's not the leaven of bread, but the leaven of the Pharisees. Now. Leaven has a pattern of symbolic use in the Bible, along with passages that tell us how it is used, specifically in this instance that it represents their teaching.

So when we look at this passage, we see an example of the disciples coming to an "overly literal" interpretation, except, that's not really it. What they are really doing is drawing conclusions based on a part taken out of context.

The reality is that they only regarded part of what Jesus had said, not the entire statement.

And when we look at the entire passage, it literally tells us that this leaven is symbolic. We likewise find Jesus literally saying that the meaning of this symbol is the doctine of those religious leaders.

There really were Saducees and Pharisees, they really did have bad teaching, and Jesus was literally warning them about it.

We come to symbolic language, but we know it is so because the text tells us, in direct literal language. We know what the symbols mean because the text tells us, again, in direct literal language.

And so we can conclusively say that this wording is symbolic, because the text tells us that in a literal straightforward fashion.

Another example . . .

Revelation 12:1-3
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.


Where the KJV translates "wonder", the word used is "semeion", which, if you look at it's pattern of usage in the Bible, this is something special, something unusual, meant to communicate or authenticate. Liddell-Scott-Jones defines this word as a "mark by which a thing is known", "sign from the gods, omen", "sign or signal to do a thing, made by flags", it goes on.

If I look at word definitions, this is a sign. If I look at Biblical usage, this is again a sign, and I can point to places in the Bible that show this usage.

"No sign shall be given by the sign of Jonah."
"You can't read the signs of the times"
" . . . and asked Him to show them a sign from heaven."
"signs and wonders"


and so on.

So John saw a great sign in heaven, a woman . . .

So we know that this woman is not meant to be understood that John looked up in the sky and just saw a girl. No, this was a special seeing of something that was a sign, a mark or token or sign meant to express something.

How is it that we would be able to know what is being expressed?

And by what means might we all come to the same understanding of these passages? How can we know we've got it right?

Much love!
Mark

Good and thoughtful post Mark,
I will re-read this.
It is all about context balance and dividing rightly :)
In Him,
nancy
 

Helen

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I actually think that most of us read the Bible the way I'm talking about.

Let's take an example.

Matthew 16:5-12
5 And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.
6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.


Did this really happen?

Jesus had a conversation with His disciples. They talked about bread and leaven and religious leaders.

Jesus told them to beware the leaven of the Pharisess. They took Him as meaning bread, they forgot to bring bread.

Now, you may say, but look! Jesus is chiding them for being too literal!

Jesus is not chiding them for being literal, but rather for not recognizing what He was talking about. Then He gave them the reasons by which they could know that there was a different meaning, and what that meaning was.

Now. Is this to say that we should not look literally? I think this is to say we should carefully. The disciples didn't listen closely. Jesus was talking about leaven, but He was also talking about the leaven of the Pharisees and Saducees. The disciples apparently grabbed ahold of the one word, "leaven", without giving proper regard to the fulness of what Jesus said. They associated "leaven" with what they commonly thought of - bread. But that's like "interpretation by word association". Jesus says Leaven, we think Bread, and stop hearing what else He says.

But it's not the leaven of bread, but the leaven of the Pharisees. Now. Leaven has a pattern of symbolic use in the Bible, along with passages that tell us how it is used, specifically in this instance that it represents their teaching.

So when we look at this passage, we see an example of the disciples coming to an "overly literal" interpretation, except, that's not really it. What they are really doing is drawing conclusions based on a part taken out of context.

The reality is that they only regarded part of what Jesus had said, not the entire statement.

And when we look at the entire passage, it literally tells us that this leaven is symbolic. We likewise find Jesus literally saying that the meaning of this symbol is the doctine of those religious leaders.

There really were Saducees and Pharisees, they really did have bad teaching, and Jesus was literally warning them about it.

We come to symbolic language, but we know it is so because the text tells us, in direct literal language. We know what the symbols mean because the text tells us, again, in direct literal language.

And so we can conclusively say that this wording is symbolic, because the text tells us that in a literal straightforward fashion.

Another example . . .

Revelation 12:1-3
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.


Where the KJV translates "wonder", the word used is "semeion", which, if you look at it's pattern of usage in the Bible, this is something special, something unusual, meant to communicate or authenticate. Liddell-Scott-Jones defines this word as a "mark by which a thing is known", "sign from the gods, omen", "sign or signal to do a thing, made by flags", it goes on.

If I look at word definitions, this is a sign. If I look at Biblical usage, this is again a sign, and I can point to places in the Bible that show this usage.

"No sign shall be given by the sign of Jonah."
"You can't read the signs of the times"
" . . . and asked Him to show them a sign from heaven."
"signs and wonders"


and so on.

So John saw a great sign in heaven, a woman . . .

So we know that this woman is not meant to be understood that John looked up in the sky and just saw a girl. No, this was a special seeing of something that was a sign, a mark or token or sign meant to express something.

How is it that we would be able to know what is being expressed?

And by what means might we all come to the same understanding of these passages? How can we know we've got it right?

Much love!
Mark

Agree...
...Like I say...its never Either v Or...but both. ;)
 

VictoryinJesus

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I've read this a number of times now, and I see God's revelation is His creation, but I always want to let the Bible be what forms my views and ideas and such as I look at His creation, rather than my perceptions of His creation altering what I read in His book.

I believe it is written that we can see His power and glory in His creation. But for me the Scripture remains over all.

Much love!
mark

Maybe that came out wrong then. Seen the creation my whole life but hadn’t ever had those intimate moments you mention with God. it wasn’t until reading His word that for example Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

“Let there be light: and there was light.” Became more. John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Seeing this throughout the Word was for me like your prophecy moment in realizing He that spoke cares about us.
 
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marks

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Maybe that came out wrong then. Seen the creation my whole life but hadn’t ever had those intimate moments you mention with God. it wasn’t until reading His word that for example Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

“Let there be light: and there was light.” Became more. John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Seeing this throughout the Word was for me like your prophecy moment in realizing He that spoke cares about us.

And Christ enlightened you as the true light coming into the world enlightening every man!

And creation shows the glory of God more brightly when illumined by His Word.

Much love!
Mark
 

Nancy

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Yes, but not how , or in the words or phrases I expected ... :)

Which proves what we were saying yesterday ...it’s our presentation and phraseology which sometime causes us to think that we disagree ( like with Dave L the other day, then, when he said it differently and elaborated a bit...I totally agreed :D )

So..on so many threads I feel people are arguing when they are just saying the same thing from a different perspective. Like the story of describing an Elephant...one was looking at the head, one at the tail...but it was the same elephant in the picture... :)

Yeah, kind of like how the Gospels were written from different perspectives :)
 
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Taken

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...marks

OP --> Literal Vs Non-Literal

Literal meaning ~
Taking words in their most USUAL sense.

Personally, I take SCRIPTURE LITERALLY.

That which Scripture SAYS, is what the words mean, in their most USUAL SENSE.

However I DO NOT, Believe, a "MANS" Usual Sense, is Comparable to Gods "Usual Sense".

1 Cor 2
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Comparable meaning ~
One "thing" in likeness to another "thing".

Understanding meaning ~
Comprehend what a word means.
Comprehend what a series of words mean.
Comprehend a message conveyed through (spoken/written) words, to one (hearing/reading) words.

Scripture IS directly the word of God.
Scripture IS indirectly the word of God.

How The ALL-knowing Invisible God Conveys His word to Limited-knowing mankind, IS via what IS USUAL to mankinds LITERAL Knowledge.

Scripture is ALSO reveals, Understanding of Gods word, IS specifically, BY and THROUGH, God Himself GIVING men, "HIS" understanding OF "HIS WORD".

Men; Teachers, Preachers, Philosophers, etc;
Routinely Like to be the one WHO SHARE;
Through, speaking, writing, teaching, preaching, philosophizing, WHAT Scripture MEANS...."according to "THEIR" Usual Senses."

Nothing WRONG with such men SHARING.

That Which CAUSES the CONFUSION and DISAGREEMENTS among men...

IS WHEN; Individual men, Do not take what they HEAR/READ, from "other men", and TRUST "that" information, WITHOUT, Verifyiing another mans "interpretation" / "understanding" ... WITH God Himself.

God Himself is the Supreme Authority on What His word Means.

God Himself is the Supreme Truth.

God Himself is the GIVER of HIS Understanding.

It is already KNOWN, men love to think, ponder, rely on Logical Senses, speak, tell, encourage agreement....etc.

Scripture Already notifies us...
God reveals His Approved words.
God is the Supreme Source of HIS Understanding of HIS Approved words.
God gives Individuals "that have Given Him" authority Over the Individuals Life, Gods OWN Understanding, of HIS Approved words.

IN SUMMARY;
Hear, Read, Believe, Trust, Submit, Keep reading, Study, ASK GOD....and what?
"Ye shall receive".

Matt 16
[16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 24
[45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Glory to God,
Taken
 

bbyrd009

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marks

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Yes, so many people don't want to go the distance. I don't think people are different then from today.

People get their hearts set on this or that, this way of meeting God or that way, this way of living or that way, this way for the prophecies or that way, and just like the Pharisees, tear and rend anything different from their particular way.

They searched the Scriptures, given by God Himself to show the way to eternal and everlasting life in Him. But they refused to actually submit to what they read. And because they held themselves the judges and arbiters of Scripture and over other men, they would not - would not - SEE what what immediately in front of them - God Himself - Just like His Book said.

They would not yield to the Holy Writ and believe what it said, choosing instead to obfuscate and castigate and deny the truth. Just as Jesus said, the truth was not in them.

Oh, but it means this . . . Oh, but it means that . . . and it means whatever you want but it doesn't really. It means what it says, like it or not.

But if you are of the truth, you do like it, in fact, you love it as life itself, for through God's Word He brings to us eternal and everlasting life. It's why He made us. Through His Word we come to faith in Jesus Christ who redeems us.

So many people either say you can't know what it means, or you can't understand it, but I wonder if it has more to do with matters of obedience, or when someone has clung to doctrine for so long, to change now . . . I can't say.

But what I can say, is this, either the Bible means what the words mean, or it means whatever you want it to mean, which is anything at all.

Why did they think they could find eternal life in God's Word? Because God gave it for that reason. It would lead them to eternal and everlasting life, by leading them to Jesus.

Much love!
Mark
 
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bbyrd009

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Yes, so many people don't want to go the distance. I don't think people are different then from today.

People get their hearts set on this or that, this way of meeting God or that way, this way of living or that way, this way for the prophecies or that way, and just like the Pharisees, tear and rend anything different from their particular way.

They searched the Scriptures, given by God Himself to show the way to eternal and everlasting life in Him. But they refused to actually submit to what they read. And because they held themselves the judges and arbiters of Scripture and over other men, they would not - would not - SEE what what immediately in front of them - God Himself - Just like His Book said.

They would not yield to the Holy Writ and believe what it said, choosing instead to obfuscate and castigate and deny the truth. Just as Jesus said, the truth was not in them.

Oh, but it means this . . . Oh, but it means that . . . and it means whatever you want but it doesn't really. It means what it says, like it or not.

But if you are of the truth, you do like it, in fact, you love it as life itself, for through God's Word He brings to us eternal and everlasting life. It's why He made us. Through His Word we come to faith in Jesus Christ who redeems us.

So many people either say you can't know what it means, or you can't understand it, but I wonder if it has more to do with matters of obedience, or when someone has clung to doctrine for so long, to change now . . . I can't say.

But what I can say, is this, either the Bible means what the words mean, or it means whatever you want it to mean, which is anything at all.

Why did they think they could find eternal life in God's Word? Because God gave it for that reason. It would lead them to eternal and everlasting life, by leading them to Jesus.

Much love!
Mark
if only Scripture were Word, huh
 

bbyrd009

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What does that mean?

I'm talking about the Bible.
Ah well I was referring to Scripture, but regardless I can say I would much rather Read than Hear! Heard Word twice already, don't think I could survive a third. Prolly makes no sense I guess lol. Anyway,
In the beginning was Bible, and Bible was with God, and Bible was God
is prolly not the worst place to start anyway...maybe. I dunno

Word is truth, and truth just is not the pleasant tickle we make it out to be usually, imo
 

bbyrd009

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But what I can say, is this, either the Bible means what the words mean, or it means whatever you want it to mean, which is anything at all
either/or, yes, but I suggest that there is a third option ok, a third rail if you will. See we were raised with the Hegelian dialectic, and it doesn't matter if we don't know what that means, we can still be quite fam with stuff we don't know the technical terms for.

So, we bring this dialectic, or reasoning method, to our Scripture reading--and incidentally also to our Bible reading; the same mechanism is why we have turned "Scripture" into "Bible" I guess--and we then interpret the Bible from that perspective, imo mostly bc we don't realize that any other perspective is even available?
 

marks

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What does Hegelian dialectic have to do with reading the Bible? And yes, I know what it means.

I don't mean any offence, but it sounds like you don't think Scripture is authorative or knowable. Is that true?

Much love!
 
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marks

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bbyrd009

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Yes ty marks, have a nice day ok
What does Hegelian dialectic have to do with reading the Bible?
Indeed, what could a refined def of "satan's dialectic" possibly have to do with reading inspired writing, huh. Prolly nothing, almost surely probably
 
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bbyrd009

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The Jews invent vowels
not at all what we are taught in "church" I guess huh

"God of the vowel people" is also a good search
calling the Bible "Word" is actually quite evil tho, as is the way most believers use It I guess, as if It were a buffet one could choose or something?

Tell me that Bible is Word, and I'll show you Bible that you will not even be able to acknowledge, let alone read. If we want all those promises in the Bible to manifest today instead of the lying pipe dream of Elysian Fields tomorrow, we have no choice but to change our minds here.

Many will seek to keep the Bible, rather than Christ, between you and God; don't be deceived