Literal Vs. Non-Literal

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marks

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In using the example of a camel being unable to go through the eye of a needle, a literal reading of the Bible confirms that no one who is rich will go to Heaven.

So, the only conclusion a Literalist could reach is that Abraham (a rich man) and many others also, are not in Heaven, and never will be.

This easily demonstrates the fallacy of claiming you read all of the Bible literally.

Not so, though. But with God, all things are possible. So the rich can be saved too! And from a literal reading at that.
 

marks

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Could you just say "I am now the arbiter of all of your interpretations" and get it over with pls

Your words are intended to carry a certain meaning, are they not? Don't you choose the words you do for what they say?

I'm not saying there aren't personal messages to us from our most Personal God within His Word. But the reason we understand them is because of words.

What happens to your words to me if I come back to you and tell you that I understand the real meaning, that your words are spiritual, and I understand them spiritually.

And then I tell you that I'm not going to be the arbiter of your interpretations no matter how much you ask me to.

Is that what you meant?

Much love!
mark
 
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VictoryinJesus

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However, man-made doctrines would to me fit more with those who read a passage, and assign a symbolic or allegorical meaning

Now I feel bad to even respond to your post after what Bygrace posted. She is right that both have significance yeah? Don’t expect you to agree with anything I post...don’t blame you if you don’t. Was just telling my husband the other night I admire those that know the historical history behind God’s word. I’m not that person.

I'm saying that what I've seen is that those who read Scripture more literally tend to be more in agreement with each other, as they are all looking at the same source, the words in print according to their historical meaning.

Just an opinion...not forcing you to agree. “Looking at the same source”

2 Corinthians 4:18
[18] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Pretty straightforward but what does it mean to you?

Hebrews 11:3
[3] Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The Sky is Blue.

As a simple, declarative statement, it has a single meaning, the color of the sky.

But what if I say, There is a deeper spiritual meaning, what is it?

One might answer, the sky is what is over us, and God is over us, God is blue, we've made God sad.

No, says another. Blue is the color for heaven, and the sky is over all, so heaven is everywhere!

“...for the things which are seen are temporal.” Yes the sky is blue obviously. God isn’t blue. But I ask you to consider standing and looking up and pointing up in the sky to say heaven is there above ‘me’...someone on the other side of the earth pointing at the same sky ...is it up or down. Heaven ‘above’ could be positional as in God highest over all. As in “on high” ; supreme authority over all in this world and the world to come. Is that bad to consider it as positional rather than to think when God rent the heavens in Isaiah 64:1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,

It was only literal: “and the veil of the temple was rent in twain from top to the bottom.”
And not also Spiritual?

No, I think I'm better off learning the words of Scripture

The words of scripture. The word? Is He (the word) Spirit or flesh? Seems to be the argument. Some say flesh. Some say Spirit. (Imo which doesn’t mean it is right) the word was made flesh, seen of men, was lifted up...suffered death and persecution of wicked men (all included here) ...purified seven times and resurrected. Spoken Life (Spirit) lead those captive in the shadow of death into the light and in to newness of life which is Spirit. Moses spoke with Him who is invisible as if He were visible.

The word of God made flesh: Psalm 12:6
[6] The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

To corrupt it is to add back in what was removed no?

Why add in the words? God's word shall not return to Him void - that is, empty, without fulfillment. It shall accomplish His Work.

In the believer, I believe the work of God is conforming us to Christ. So, yes, we should be like the masses . . . of Christians.

I don't think we should make void a single word of Scripture.

No not every ‘void’ means the same thing but many times it does. 1 Corinthians 9:15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

Come on...we are told to walk in the spirit. To praise and worship God in Spirit. We are told to not glory in the flesh. As you said ‘void’ ... “empty”. Same thing. John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Void. Same as vain. “Empty” which the creation was subjected to by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope. The hope is Christ. Freedom from vanity. Freedom from that which is void and empty...LIFE. Walk in the Spirit and you will have life. Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord ; and there is none else.

Isaiah 45:19
[19] I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.


Matthew 6:33
[33] But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Spirit. Not empty. Not in vain. Not void. Not unprofitable. “On earth as it is in Heaven.” ...Spirit.

2 Timothy 1:10
[10] But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

1 Timothy 1:17
[17] Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
 
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marks

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Many decades ago Father used a scripture to speak something to me about something.
About a decade later He used the same scripture in a totally different way to speak something. God can and does put His emphasis where He likes on any given verse.
He is our Father...He speaks. "The middle wall that separated is broken down"...

I love that!

And this is what He does with me as well! This is how He has made Himself intimate with me. One of the ways. Scripture can be applied in amazingly many ways, and I've become convinced that the Bible truly does answer any question I have that is important for me to ask.

Sadly, this is so often overlooked by many who would have the words be plastic and moldable according to their own private revelation.

Much love!
mark
 

marks

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2 Corinthians 4:18
[18] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Pretty straightforward but what does it mean to you?

Does it have a meaning at all?

What is it?

Much love!
Mark
 

Helen

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I love that!

And this is what He does with me as well! This is how He has made Himself intimate with me. One of the ways. Scripture can be applied in amazingly many ways, and I've become convinced that the Bible truly does answer any question I have that is important for me to ask.

Sadly, this is so often overlooked by many who would have the words be plastic and moldable according to their own private revelation.

Much love!
mark

Amen Mark
So we do agree on some things then ? :)

BTW, bbyrd009's name is also Mark.
A very nice name!!
 

Helen

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Now I feel bad to even respond to your post after what Bygrace posted. She is right that both have significance yeah? Don’t expect you to agree with anything I post...don’t blame you if you don’t. Was just telling my husband the other night I admire those that know the historical history behind God’s word. I’m not that person.



Just an opinion...not forcing you to agree. “Looking at the same source”

2 Corinthians 4:18
[18] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Pretty straightforward but what does it mean to you?

Hebrews 11:3
[3] Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.



“...for the things which are seen are temporal.” Yes the sky is blue obviously. God isn’t blue. But I ask you to consider standing and looking up and pointing up in the sky to say heaven is there above ‘me’...someone on the other side of the earth pointing at the same sky ...is it up or down. Heaven ‘above’ could be positional as in God highest over all. As in “on high” ; supreme authority over all in this world and the world to come. Is that bad to consider it as positional rather than to think when God rent the heavens in Isaiah 64:1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,

It was only literal: “and the veil of the temple was rent in twain from top to the bottom.”
And not also Spiritual?



The words of scripture. The word? Is He (the word) Spirit or flesh? Seems to be the argument. Some say flesh. Some say Spirit. (Imo which doesn’t mean it is right) the word was made flesh, seen of men, was lifted up...suffered death and persecution of wicked men (all included here) ...purified seven times and resurrected. Spoken Life (Spirit) lead those captive in the shadow of death into the light and in to newness of life which is Spirit. Moses spoke with Him who is invisible as if He were visible.

The word of God made flesh: Psalm 12:6
[6] The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

To corrupt it is to add back in what was removed no?



No not every ‘void’ means the same thing but many times it does. 1 Corinthians 9:15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

Come on...we are told to walk in the spirit. To praise and worship God in Spirit. We are told to not gloryin the flesh. As you said ‘void’ ... “empty”. Same thing. John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Void. Same as vain. “Empty” which the creation was subjected to by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope. The hope is Christ. Freedom from vanity. Freedom from that which is void and empty...LIFE. Walk in the Spirit and you will have life. Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord ; and there is none else.

Isaiah 45:19
[19] I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.


Matthew 6:33
[33] But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Spirit. Not empty. Not in vain. Not void. Not unprofitable. “On earth as it is in Heaven.” ...Spirit.

2 Timothy 1:10
[10] But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

1 Timothy 1:17
[17] Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.


Amen...Good post...and I love the scriptures that you used. :)
 
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marks

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Amen Mark
So we do agree on some things then ? :)

BTW, bbyrd009's name is also Mark.
A very nice name!!

Of course we do! I think we agree on a lot of things, and the most important things.

Mark . . . from the the Nordic for "battlehammer"

Much love!
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Does it have a meaning at all?

What is it?

Much love!
Mark

Matthew 6:33
[33] But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

That which can not be shaken and remains.
 

Helen

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Does it have a meaning at all?

What is it?

Much love!
Mark

That is what I think we are trying to say....

Being BOTH...

When the 12 yr old Jesus said " I must be about my Fathers business" to his mother who was worried about Him.

He was not only speaking about being 12 and being found in the Temple teaching...He was also referencing why He was even here on earth...He was reminding Mary who He was, and why He was here.

To me ..every verse in the bible is "double talk" for those who wish to take time to listen while God unfolds His thoughts to us.

I cut my teeth on it Mark.
I remember my dad, preaching an awesome word on Elisha and the woman he lodged with when coming through her town.
The scripture included ...and she stood in the door ...

He preach on us standing in the Door ( Jesus) ...now anyone else may just have "read the story" and taken just the literal away with them..but ever verse will always speak "God speak" to those who listen and can "see" beyond this natural world and words.

My two cents..
 
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marks

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It has always been so laughable to me when people try their best to sound "Holy" by claiming they "only read the Bible Literally", when we all know that is just a sad attempt at a smoke screen. Even an eight-year old child can name plenty of places in the Bible that all of us know we do not read the word literally. (You have to wonder where all the "one-armed" and "one-eyed" people are.)

I this to me?
 

marks

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That is what I think we are trying to say....

Being BOTH...

When the 12 yr old Jesus said " I must be about my Fathers business" to his mother who was worried about Him.

He was not only speaking about being 12 and being found in the Temple teaching...He was also referencing why He was even here on earth...He was reminding Mary who He was, and why He was here.

To me ..every verse in the bible is "double talk" for those who wish to take time to listen while God unfolds His thoughts to us.

I cut my teeth on it Mark.
I remember my dad, preaching an awesome word on Elisha and the woman he lodged with when coming through her town.
The scripture included ...and she stood in the door ...

He preach on us standing in the Door ( Jesus) ...now anyone else may just have "read the story" and taken just the literal away with them..but ever verse will always speak "God speak" to those who listen and can "see" beyond this natural world and words.

My two cents..

I've heard a saying, "it preaches well". Many passages preach fabulously well on a variety of things. The stories in Scripture illustrate the doctines in Scripture all over the place.

We read about Jonah, or Elijah, and we recognize something in the story, and the next thing you know we've reached this whole new level of understanding.

I remember one time studying Ruth, it soon turned into seeing literally dozens of NT doctrinal passages come to life in the story of Ruth and Naomi. Just the same, what happened concerning Ruth and Naomi actually happened, and I believe that it happened in the way the Bible says.

We learn wonderful truths about God. We see Scripture illustrating God's plan for us, and what He's done for us. But those things only make sense because we read Ruth for what it is, the story of these people, and what God did.

He communicates so much through so little.

But He still uses the words, because they have meanings.

After my experiences over the past week or so, I'm coming to see I'm in the minority here, which is rather astounding to me. But I'm wondering if it's more vocabulary.

Much love!
mark
 
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Enoch111

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Even an eight-year old child can name plenty of places in the Bible that all of us know we do not read the word literally.
Reading the Word literally INCLUDES accepting similies, metaphors, and figures of speech literally. Christ is the Lamb of God metaphorically and spiritually, but we take that as a literal statement that He is the Lamb of God.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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This is how He has made Himself intimate with me.

Same here. I don’t want to force it to be one or the other. That is not the intent...it is just when you don’t have the historical or struggle with the literal ...it’s those intimate moments ...
 
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marks

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Now I feel bad to even respond to your post after what Bygrace posted.

Hi ViJ,

You need not feel bad, you strike me as quite sincere, and I appreciate that you read and respond!

Just an opinion...not forcing you to agree. “Looking at the same source”

2 Corinthians 4:18
[18] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Pretty straightforward but what does it mean to you?

As I look at the chapter, it seems to me that God is teaching us about the sufferings we endure, and how these sufferings, while difficult in the body, work towards revealing Jesus through our lives. That we are to endure these things towards the greater end of ministry to others, and that we are to console ourselves with the knowledge that while it looks like we're just being ground down to dust day by day, the reality is that these things which appear to be towards our destruction are actually towards our glory, and are actually restoring us. So instead of looking at the temporal, which passes away - the sufferings and afflictions we endure - we look at the unseen, that which does not pass away, that which our afflictions are producing for us. We not see the prize with our terrestrial eyes, but we keep our spiritual eyes fixed on the heavenly.

It was only literal: “and the veil of the temple was rent in twain from top to the bottom.”
And not also Spiritual?

Was this not a description of an historical event?

Now, I believe there was a reason for it happening, and that was to show the spiritual significance of Jesus' death, in opening a way through the veil. But we do not need to do anything more than to keep reading to learn that, as Hebrews makes a full explanation.

The words of scripture. The word? Is He (the word) Spirit or flesh? Seems to be the argument. Some say flesh. Some say Spirit. (Imo which doesn’t mean it is right) the word was made flesh, seen of men, was lifted up...suffered death and persecution of wicked men (all included here) ...purified seven times and resurrected. Spoken Life (Spirit) lead those captive in the shadow of death into the light and in to newness of life which is Spirit. Moses spoke with Him who is invisible as if He were visible.

The word of God made flesh: Psalm 12:6
[6] The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

To corrupt it is to add back in what was removed no?
Not too sure what you are saying here. I' sorry!

No not every ‘void’ means the same thing but many times it does. 1 Corinthians 9:15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

Of course, void in the NT would be translated from a different word than void in the OT, one being Greek and the other Hebrew.

Blueletterbible states:

G2758 - κενόω kenóō, ken-o'-o; from ; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify:—make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.

That's my understanding of the word.

Come on...we are told to walk in the spirit. To praise and worship God in Spirit. We are told to not glory in the flesh. As you said ‘void’ ... “empty”. Same thing. John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

You know, I think I just realized what you are saying here. Reading a Bible looking for what it specifically says is to you a pursuit of the flesh, and is complete unprofitable.

Is that what you mean?

Much love!
mark
 
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bbyrd009

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Your words are intended to carry a certain meaning, are they not? Don't you choose the words you do for what they say?

I'm not saying there aren't personal messages to us from our most Personal God within His Word. But the reason we understand them is because of words.

What happens to your words to me if I come back to you and tell you that I understand the real meaning, that your words are spiritual, and I understand them spiritually.

And then I tell you that I'm not going to be the arbiter of your interpretations no matter how much you ask me to.

Is that what you meant?

Much love!
mark
well sorry but I'm more confused now than before I read your post, so I guess "no"
 

Helen

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<snip >
But He still uses the words, because they have meanings.
After my experiences over the past week or so, I'm coming to see I'm in the minority here, which is rather astounding to me. But I'm wondering if it's more vocabulary.

Much love!
mark

I agree, it could well be "how" we each say something.
I've been going back and forth with Dave L for months on this same thing..then today he writes a posts that makes me understand him a little better ....we are not so far apart as I thought.

I understood him to be saying that that God never speaks to him...and ceased speaking at the time of the end of the OT.
We have been totally misunderstanding each other for weeks, if not months. ( I know he still thinks that I am a nutter LOL )

Helen
 

marks

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well sorry but I'm more confused now than before I read your post, so I guess "no"

My point is that if I redefine your words away from what you said, then how can I possibly receive your communication?

Much love!