Logical and Dialectical Reasoning in Scripture

[bbyrd009]

Some say [scientists?] you would simply end up back where you started, but that really does not help us get out of the quandary, does it?

hmm, skipped my afternoon coffee, quandary?

Seemingly in the eyes to see! Apparently, most people remain always really blind to God and the things of God and I guess most of them never seriously consider that there might really be something else to see. The Pearl exists but of those who acknowledge how well can it be seen? The Pearl is the Gate and it is the Life. It is always right here, but...?

But what is it?

Do we have a "parasitic irritant" in us about which a protective layer [against the ways of our own flesh?] is formed

Hmm, the way i got it was from "grain of sand," seemed to comport with Scriptural legend at the time...might have to reconsider there . But imo "irritant" works anyway

 

[amadeus]

hmm, skipped my afternoon coffee, quandary?

Having been deeply involved in coffee in the past [2+ pots (strong and black) per day] I do understand, but as to the quandary, I do see sometimes what God shows me, but seeing it yourself and passing it on to anyone else is not quite the same thing, is it? On some things some people seem to see so clearly, or they say they do, I remain blind. Is blindness sometimes a "good" thing? I have never has a friend who was physically blind and my own natural has always been at least easily correctable, so my first hand experience is quite limited. Can I imagine it? Yes, but again how real is that?

But what is it?

The scripture calls it "manna" and perhaps it is simply heavenly bread, but then again, "What is it"? What kind of terminology is that to use regarding the very source of Life itself? The easy answer which probably any Bible reader knows is Bread or Jesus or the Word of God. But... who knows who and what Jesus is? What is it? or... What is he? Should it be an It or should it be a Person of a particular gender?

In German a young girl is called "das Mädchen" until certain point in life or experience. My German is not good enough to understand why "she" was an "it" for years and then became a "she" [die Fräulein (unmarried) or die Frau (married)]. We could look up the reasons why perhaps... especially for the German, but how about for the Hebrew? If we were to find the answer, would it be the answer we really need to know?

Hmm, the way i got it was from "grain of sand," seemed to comport with Scriptural legend at the time...might have to reconsider there . But imo "irritant" works anyway

I have never had a "grain of sand" under my skin causing an irritation, but we may all be able to relate to a small splinter of wood under our skin which will irritate or even hurt until it comes out on its own or we manage to dig it out. In the case of the mussel or clam they simply surround it a hedge [compare it with the hedge around Job]. Do the critter surrounded and the hedge surrounding become on Pearl of Great Price?

 

[brakelite]

Perhaps the irritant that remains but covered over is the old man that is buried under Christ's righteousness. That old man however constantly seeks to be exhumed... Christ's righteousness is an irritant to him.
Maybe that Pearl is realised when that old man is so deeply buried all that is seen in our lives is Christ.

 

[bbyrd009]

Ok for Naive v Satan's Dialectic in English, 2 book's worth in two posts:

How do these two trees help us to understand the triadic nature of reality and the source of a moral standard?

As we move from creation to the garden, there develops an emerging discontinuity between man and his association with forbidden things. When man is unconstrained by revelation, he quite naturally draws conclusions based upon how he relates to the world around him. Man allows what he experiences to influence how he defines what is relevant. Once man learns to link the natural to the eternal, he learns to represent human events in quite a different way. One cannot build a triadic picture of reality based upon experiential logic. Human rationalization, operating on its own, cannot properly context the relationship of man to the natural world. Building a triadic picture of reality is only possible when one learns to represent human experience in the light of revelation. To do this, one must allow revelation to transcend experiential logic.

There is an example of triadic structure that demonstrates how the natural world and the supernatural world relate to one another in the eternal continuum. At the beginning of man’s history in the garden, the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were mentioned in the context of man’s relationship both to God and to the natural world. The text never seems to indicate that in the beginning there was any prohibition to the tree of life but, that man was only denied access to the tree of knowledge. It was not until after the fall of man that God placed an angel with a flaming sword at the east of the garden to prohibit man’s access to the tree of life.

The way in which Adam chose to represent these trees would reflect his understanding of his association with both God and the natural world. As the narrative unfolds, it becomes clear that access to the tree of life was predicated upon man’s observance of the divine prohibition of the other. Man was to have absolutely no contact with the tree of knowledge. God had provided every tree of the garden for man’s use and pleasure, but this tree was to be left strictly alone. These two trees stand as symbols of a world beyond man’s sensory existence. The tree of forbidden knowledge represents the holiness, the superiority, and the sovereignty of God. It suggests that God always reserves unto Himself the things that belong exclusively to him. It is not merely the tree that has exclusivity, but what that tree represents. As a whole, man is never content to abide by prohibitions. Here, he desires the one thing he is denied. How characteristic this has proven to be of human nature!

Although man was given the highest place of honor as the crowning creation of God, and given dominion over all creation, this tree was a reminder that even man is not God. Man must stand in the index position of this triad and link the tree of knowledge that he can see to the will of God whom he cannot see. He must also link this tree to revealed consequences that he cannot see and has never before experienced. For man to properly relate to both worlds, he must learn to link the eternal world to his world by bringing God’s warning to bear upon his relationship to this tree. He must learn how to define the nature of his relationship to this tree based on what God had told him about it. Now, this epistemology did not just apply to this tree, it extended to everything in man’s dominion. He must understand his relationship to all of his domain based upon this triadic epistemology. God had already defined man’s function in creation and man must relate to his world according to the words of the Lord.

From the beginning, man was confronted with a decision in his association with this icon of good and evil. This tree was a symbol of an unseen reality. There is a particular type of knowledge that man was not equipped to handle and should not seek to obtain. The accessibility of the tree shows that man was given the ability to obtain this knowledge. The prohibition laid down by God says that this knowledge is destructive to man. This reinforces man’s position as a subordinate creature to what is unseen. God had said, “From this tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shalt not eat of it; for in the day that you eat from it, you shall surely die.” Here is a divine standard given to instruct man on how to think when he considers this tree. Since God has decreed that punishment will follow disobedience, the validity of God’s word is upheld. Divine judgment preserves divine justice because it is through the exercise of justice that God protects his holiness. Observance of this revelation becomes a matter of life and death. The ethics were simple; God said, “Don’t touch it.” This did not require a human analysis of ethics to decide what might be the right thing to do. Contact with the tree was evil both because God said it was evil, and because of what man would suffer as a result.

We know, because of how this tree is interpreted by the physical senses in the text, that man, left on his own, could not arrive at this conclusion. Adam could not see what the tree represented from mere empirical observation. He could only see the physical dynamics of the tree. For the rest, he must rely upon what God had told him about the tree. Man requires instruction from God to protect him from that which he has no point of reference to understand. As the Creator, God understood things about the nature of man and his relationship to his environment that man did not know and was not created to know. Man was not endowed with the capacity to distinguish between good knowledge and evil knowledge. This truth has not changed. The knowledge provided by this tree was not a necessary component for man to fulfill his role within his assigned environment.

The environment of the garden supplied every conceivable human need. He was even given access to the tree of life. The garden was a secure environment where man had no experience with fear, shame, and disgrace. These were yet unknown elements. It was an aesthetic environment where God controlled access to knowledge. There were certain things that man knew by design, but the prohibition of the tree says that there were those things which man should never want to know or seek to know.

In the garden, man enjoyed the presence of God and the full awareness of God. God knew that through disobedience man would be exiled from this controlled and protected environment and from his fellowship with God. By violating God’s prohibition, man challenged the sovereignty of God. Man does not have the authority to mandate a standard of moral conduct. The text of Genesis shows us that this level of knowledge belongs exclusively to God. Because man chose to behave sinfully, he is now confronted with a new reality. Adam is now aware of a particular type of knowledge that will forever change the way mankind represents the relationship he has with the natural world and with his God. It also laid a foundation by which humanity would forever be forced to choose between these two epistemologies. Should we represent reality based on revelation from God or should we rely on those things learned from pragmatic experiences? Which one will we depend upon to tell us the truth about what is relevant?

Now, man has access to the knowledge of good and evil. This presents two problems: First, man does not know the difference between good and evil and secondly, history shows us that when man is left to his own, he will more often than not choose the evil to his own destruction, even when revelation is present. In Genesis 6:5, we see that by the time Noah comes on the scene, “every imagination of the thoughts of the heart is only evil continually,” (RSV). The fact that revelation was available to that generation is evident in the character of Noah. God regarded Noah as “righteous in his generation.” Righteousness is the result of submitting one’s self to revealed constraints. This deterioration of a divinely established ethic shows a complete reversal of a revealed epistemology. This is what happens when the mind of man becomes isolated from the revelation of God. This isolation was willful, deliberate, and fatal. When man is left to himself without a desire for revealed knowledge, he is characteristically self-destructive. If man is to survive spiritually in a cursed environment, it will require a standard that will enable him to represent properly his assigned place within creation.

 

[bbyrd009]

When Satan approached Eve in the garden, he confronts her about the tree of knowledge. Eve rehearsed the commandment that God had given to them about this tree saying, “from the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat, but of the tree that is in the midst of the garden you may not eat from it or touch it lest you die.” This represents a revealed language structure about certain truths concerning this tree that she could not know any other way. Satan then introduced a new way of thinking about what is true. He portrays this revealed grammar as unreliable and not to be trusted. “You shall not surely die for God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil.” The idea obviously appealed to Eve but the force of the temptation was more than just a desire to be like God. This new way of representing truth offered a means by which control could be shifted from God to man.

She relies upon an unrevealed method for making decisions. Rather than consulting God and relying upon revelation which, by her own admission she understood, she relies instead upon her five senses operating in this natural world to formulate her epistemological base. She “rationalizes” why it would be acceptable to eat that which had been forbidden. This reveals a distorted ethic in the misappropriation of things that belong to God. She contemplated stealing that which belonged to God and then attempted to justify the rightness of it in her own mind.

The serpent's temptation was two-fold based upon the decision matrix of the woman. This would imply that Satan understood something of the psychology of the woman and he capitalizes on her naiveté. Experientially, Eve knows nothing of Satan, temptation, evil, craftiness, the pain of disobedience, or death. The serpent creates doubt in her mind about the motives, character, and purpose of God. He accused God of lying and planted the seed of evil ambition. “God knows that in the day you eat of it you will become like God.” The reality was that she was already like God. Satan creates suspicion in the mind of the woman by implying that God is deliberately withholding something from her that is both desirable and beneficial. It implies that, 1) man is just as good as God is, 2) God is unjust in this prohibition, and 3) man has the right to be God. This is a challenge of God’s sovereignty. At the heart of this, is the question of who has the right to be in control? Who has the right to decide what is best for man? A worldly epistemology says that man has the wisdom to decide what is best for him. A revealed epistemology says that God not only knows what is best, he is also able to supply it.

The serpent then makes an appeal to the empirical and aesthetic observation. Eve saw that the fruit was good for food and was pleasing to the eye. He also appeals to the subjective impulse; it was desirable to make one wise, which the text defines as knowing good from evil. Where then was the sin? The sin was allowing human logic and rationalization to overrule the revelation of God. This is a propensity of humanly derived standards of ethics. The decision was made by appealing to an uninspired epistemology rather than to the words of the Lord. Human logic and rationalization are not valid determinants for deciding what is right or wrong. God said, “Don’t touch it.” This alone determines what is right or wrong.

maybe there is a trialectic?

 

[bbyrd009]

Having been deeply involved in coffee in the past [2+ pots (strong and black) per day] I do understand, but as to the quandary,

ya, i'm down to one strong AM and a normie about 3, but i prolly need an intervention lol
dang gotta go, brb tho
but, but, muh magnesium!
lol

 

[amadeus]

ya, i'm down to one strong AM and a normie about 3, but i prolly need an intervention lol
dang gotta go, brb tho
but, but, muh magnesium!
lol

It has been a great many years ago [1970's] now for me that I was drinking my 2+ pots of strong black coffee daily . I was working in a Social Security closed to the public in Richmond CA and Uncle Sam provided us with all the coffee we wanted. I drank it strong and continuously. I forget exactly what problem it was causing me but a medical doctor advised me to get off of it.

I tried to just quit and found that by midday I had a severe headache which almost nothing could relieve... except coffee. So I set up a schedule to wean myself off of it. I began to make a pot of coffee each day just for me with a very small % of decaf included with regular coffee. I would drink it for several days that way and then change the mixture increasing just little bit the percentage of decaf. I did this progressively for a few months until I was finally drinking straight decaf. Then I simply stopped drinking that with no difficulty whatsoever.

Many years later I took up coffee again, but purposely doctored it with both cream and sweetener. I was drinking 1-3 cups a day every day until a few weeks ago. The additives were the problem along with other not so healthy food as I was slowly gaining weight and I don't need to gain; rather just the opposite. So a few weeks ago I cut my coffee back to only two days a week, Sundays and Wednesdays. I haven't lost weight, but I am no longer gaining.

 

[bbyrd009]

but as to the quandary, I do see sometimes what God shows me, but seeing it yourself and passing it on to anyone else is not quite the same thing, is it? On some things some people seem to see so clearly, or they say they do, I remain blind. Is blindness sometimes a "good" thing? I have never has a friend who was physically blind and my own natural has always been at least easily correctable, so my first hand experience is quite limited. Can I imagine it? Yes, but again how real is that?

ah well as to that there is no substitute for 3 days or even um 40 with a blindfold, maybe have some light Valium on hand if your patience is not, and on the other imo @hermit's thing that i just imported here? Here? Ya here, I think pretty much makes it mando that we give up on that for ourselves and hear what the elohim say prolly? A word to the wise an' all that maybe.

Bc Evening came by Adam's side, yes? the two became one, and her desire was for her man right?
I def got Eve ears for myself i guess, Adam's ears i use on everyone else lol
hopefully the Second One

The scripture calls it "manna" and perhaps it is simply heavenly bread, but then again, "What is it"? What kind of terminology is that to use regarding the very source of Life itself?

um, the hermit thing again, it's sick with it. Gave me goose bumps

The easy answer which probably any Bible reader knows is Bread or Jesus or the Word of God.

! wait
Manna is Word?
gth out. Really?
brb

What Does the Bible Say About Manna From Heaven?
transliteration MAN hmm

who knows who and what Jesus is? What is it? or... What is he? Should it be an It or should it be a Person of a particular gender?

my guess would be no, but then "particular gender" is DQing that one for me
imo ol'--Ancient Ol' i guess--Josh was just "John Doe from out of Nowhere..."
ah finally [url="john doe out of nowhere" abarim-publications.com]here it is[/url]first return, with some noodles underneath hmm i guess the Atheists @ Agnostic.com don't like it much HA!
Better return in onsite search btw, "Antichrist" is great but they're all good

Ok iPad steadfastly refuses to import Gsearches i guess, just plug it in yourself maybe

I have never had a "grain of sand" under my skin causing an irritation, but we may all be able to relate to a small splinter of wood under our skin which will irritate or even hurt until it comes out on its own or we manage to dig it out. In the case of the mussel or clam they simply surround it a hedge [compare it with the hedge around Job]. Do the critter surrounded and the hedge surrounding become on Pearl of Great Price?

gotta follow Sand out myself for now, but maybe, dunno. Actually closing in on "was Why some oysters made pearls and others not?" even known then, and/or "When was the Sand theory invented" which appears to be later so far, so,
"What did they know? I don't know."
Yet

 

[brakelite]

maybe there is a trialectic?

h
What Satan was tempting Eve with was the same self reasoning he himself developed within himself in his prior rebellion as revealed in I think Ezekiel... No Isaiah...I shall be like the most high.
Very good posts. Summed up by Jesus I think, with an ethos every Christian should learn before he can walk, without Me ye can do nothing. Sadly, or greatly depending on ones perspective, it takes experiential failure to learn this lesson. But it can be learnt.

 

[bbyrd009]

Perhaps the irritant that remains but covered over is the old man that is buried under Christ's righteousness. That old man however constantly seeks to be exhumed... Christ's righteousness is an irritant to him.
Maybe that Pearl is realised when that old man is so deeply buried all that is seen in our lives is Christ.

guess he has to die, yeh.
and not a bad shot at Pearl of Great Price either maybe

 

[bbyrd009]

I tried to just quit and found that by midday I had a severe headache which almost nothing could relieve... except coffee.

I remember there, even tea wouldn't work? Weird

So a few weeks ago I cut my coffee back to only two days a week, Sundays and Wednesdays. I haven't lost weight, but I am no longer gaining.

i guess tea is better but muh magnesium, srsly
trace metals are huge
everyone reading this should go take some zinc and potassium
right now

I haven't lost weight, but I am no longer gaining.

Dave's Killer Bread Good Seed will jack you up!
turn that candle back into a torch bro
Homestat Farms Steel Cut Oatmeal even more potent
cut back a little when the heart palps start!
lol

 

[bbyrd009]

What Satan was tempting Eve with was the same self reasoning he himself developed within himself in his prior rebellion as revealed in I think Ezekiel... No Isaiah...I shall be like the most high.
Very good posts. Summed up by Jesus I think, with an ethos every Christian should learn before he can walk, without Me ye can do nothing. Sadly, or greatly depending on ones perspective, it takes experiential failure to learn this lesson. But it can be learnt.

ah i'm currently functioning on They developed together gotta v or three? ty

and yeh there is no substitute for the both of you leaving town brokenospares and eat what they feed you imo. A night in a cardboard dumpster is--ha well it's a blast, cardboard is warm and comfy, and you get stars--but anyway not the first time lol, quite humbling

 

[brakelite]

ah i'm currently functioning on They developed together gotta v or three? ty

and yeh there is no substitute for the both of you leaving town brokenospares and eat what they feed you imo. A night in a cardboard dumpster is--ha well it's a blast, cardboard is warm and comfy, and you get stars--but anyway not the first time lol, quite humbling

The smell I could do without... And the fear someone is going to dump a body on top of you. Although like everything in life... Repetition becomes habitual.

 

[brakelite]

ah i'm currently functioning on They developed together gotta v or three? ty

Give me a little time, and I will see what I can do...remind me if I go AWOL.

 

[bbyrd009]

The smell I could do without... And the fear someone is going to dump a body on top of you. Although like everything in life... Repetition becomes habitual.

Wow i am liking the way your avatar is jumping off the page, and never saw any stink or death in cardboard dumpsters myself, they are special little nests, fairly rare i guess?

 

[bbyrd009]

Give me a little time, and I will see what I can do...remind me if I go AWOL.

Fwiw it's the "himSELF" part that gives me cause for the pause; spirits have no souls right, and neither do we imo. We are.

 

[amadeus]

ah well as to that there is no substitute for 3 days or even um 40 with a blindfold, maybe have some light Valium on hand if your patience is not, and on the other imo @hermit's thing that i just imported here? Here? Ya here, I think pretty much makes it mando that we give up on that for ourselves and hear what the elohim say prolly? A word to the wise an' all that maybe.

No, most of the time I am not impatient. When I am impatient and I have a problem in need of resolution usually Valium would not be the answer, but it is an interesting suggestion. The blindfold, however, might work... if there were one to lead me whom I could trust? Otherwise we may be back to the blind leading the blind into a ditch.

Bc Evening came by Adam's side, yes? the two became one, and her desire was for her man right?
I def got Eve ears for myself i guess, Adam's ears i use on everyone else lol
hopefully the Second One

um, the hermit thing again, it's sick with it. Gave me goose bumps

Can we or should we become hermits for God's sake? Was there one in the scriptures? Consider Elijah alone running from his enemies:

"And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." I Kings 19:10 & 14 [Notice that he spoke the same words twice.]

But was he a seeking to become a hermit, and if he was, was that what God wanted of him when he seemingly rebuked him here?

"Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him." I Kings 19:18

What others? Consider Jonah who also ran away, not from enemies, but from God himself.

Perhaps John could be called a hermit on the island of Patmos, although he did not choose to be exiled. Was it not God's will for him to be exiled to that island but then again, was he alone there?

! wait
Manna is Word?
gth out. Really?
brb

When we read these words, what is it really saying?

"And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God." Luke 4:4

"And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of
the LORD doth man live" Deut 8:3

The difference between the manna for the flesh of the old man and the Word [the flesh of Jesus] for the new man is emphasized. But... both are really nourishment. The one, the former for this physical body and the latter for that which is born again or from above.

"The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed." John 6:52-55

How does one "eat" the flesh of Jesus? By eating the dead carcass [the scriptures]?

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:14

"For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together" Matt 24:28

But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

What Does the Bible Say About Manna From Heaven?
transliteration MAN hmm

my guess would be no, but then "particular gender" is DQing that one for me
imo ol'--Ancient Ol' i guess--Josh was just "John Doe from out of Nowhere"
ah finally [url="john doe out of nowhere" abarim-publications.com]here it is[/url]first return, with some noodles underneath hmm i guess the Atheists @ Agnostic.com don't like it much HA!
Better return in onsite search too btw, "Antichrist" is great but they're all good

Ok iPad steadfastly refuses to import Gsearches of course, just plug it in yourself i guess

gotta follow Sand out myself for now, but maybe, dunno. Actually closing in on "was Why some oysters made pearls and others not?" even known then, and/or "When was the Sand theory um invented" which appears to be later so far, so,
"What did they know? I don't know."
Yet

I did a little looking on this myself. [I noted that a book has been written: "Sand to Pearls: Making Bold Choices to Enrich Your Life" by Heidi McLaughlin. I have not read the book, but perhaps it has some answers...?]

Perhaps by asking questions we may see something: Why are some saved and some are not? Does every person saved become a pearl? Perhaps every person who responds favorably to a call from God has a pearl producing potential, but...?

A grain of sand is what?

"That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;" Gen 22:17

"Fear ye not me? saith the LORD: will ye not tremble at my presence, which have placed the sand for the bound of the sea by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it: and though the waves thereof toss themselves, yet can they not prevail; though they roar, yet can they not pass over it?" Jerem 5:22

Seems like more questions than answers!

 

[bbyrd009]

The scripture calls it "manna" and perhaps it is simply heavenly bread, but then again, "What is it"? What kind of terminology is that to use regarding the very source of Life itself?

literal?
lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Manna is Word?

been following that for a day now, maybe the mechanism? a mechan, no, wait, might be the ha

 

[bbyrd009]

No, most of the time I am not impatien

we might see

The blindfold, however, might work... if there were one to lead me whom I could trust?

ah i'd goto the other way

Otherwise we may be back to the blind leading the blind into a ditch.

virtually no one who reads this has or will ever have the experience of being blind for a single day in their lives, a, except for those who lose their sight...sub 40 million completely blind right now Simply puts mushrooms to shame bro. Great way to meet your monster imo. 3 days is an experience, and 40 would surely be life altering. All of your other senses undergo a um like boot camp i guess, google knows ask him.

Harder to lie to a blind person.

So the whole point imo is to gain another sense of sight by bypassing eyes, and thus be led in a new way. I've never done so much as ten minutes mind you :/

but I would go into it with a vision, embrace the challenges or whatever. But you'll be wanting some nerve tonic, we got three big comfreys out front ready to harvest now! Guess i could send a free lb dried to anyone who wanted to pay shipping. Fresh, even, why not

Srsly pushing one off of a cliff

apparently alcohol is a completely different experience, etc. everything changes