madness and the woman

[Randy Kluth]

At present, God's people are scattered around the world. As Revelation 2 to 3 tell us; there is Overcomers for God in every type of Church. Overcomers, from every tribe, race, nation and language, ARE the true Israelites of God.
Bible Prophecy says that a time will come when those faithful peoples will gather and live in the way God always wanted, in all of the holy Land.
It will be them who Gog from Magog will attack, Ezekiel 38 to39 and Joel 2:20 says how the Lord will protect them.
It will be them who the Anti-Christ makes a 7 year treaty of peace with.
It will be them who say to Jesus as He Returns; Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.

Obviously, you've made up your mind. That's okay, but we can discuss it no further.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus said the Kingdom is like something taken from the old and having added to it the new--not replacing the old.

Matt 13.52 He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the law who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”

But please allow me to be clear--we do *not* disagree that the Kingdom of God was in some sense transferred from Israel to Gentile nations.

I believe it was taken from unbelieving Israel and given to faithful Israel and faithful Gentiles who are one tree made up of various olive branches.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I believe it was taken from unbelieving Israel and given to faithful Israel and faithful Gentiles who are one tree made up of various olive branches.

We certainly agree in part. What the "tree" is is debatable. That we are all one, Jew and Gentile, is beyond dispute. Christ is our one head, and the single source of our spiritual unity.

 

[ewq1938]

What the "tree" is is debatable.

Not really. The natural or original branches of that tree are Jews/Israelites so the tree would be the original nation of Israel descended from Jacob's 12 sons.

 

[rwb]

I agree that the Woman is called to be Christian. A remnant of Israel is presently Christian. Israel's destiny is to be a Christian nation. "And so, all Israel will be saved." (Rom 11)

My interpretation of the "Woman" is not "set in stone." It's a difficult prophecy for me.

Can you explain how Ro 11 proves ethnic Israel shall be a Christian nation?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Can you explain how Ro 11 proves ethnic Israel shall be a Christian nation?

It's in how you view Paul's sense of "all Israel will be saved." My view is that Paul held to the same sense that OT history used, that Israel would be saved politically, as a nation, if the nation, as a whole, properly observed God's laws.

Paul is saying the exact same thing, albeit under NT standards. Apart from the Law of Moses Israel still may cooperate with God's moral laws and thereby be blessed. The promise given under the Law was that cooperation with God under the requirements of the Law would bring not just blessing, but also restoration from devastating defeats and punishments. In the same way, Israel can return to God, observing His moral and spiritual principles, and be restored as a nation, politically.

Paul indicates that this return of Israel to compliance with God's laws would take place at Christ's return, when the majority are enlightened about who their Messiah is, accepting him, and being restored as His people. This is not to say that only Israel is God's People, and that some kind of Dispensational shift takes place from a Gentile Church to Israel at the 2nd Coming. But just as many Gentile nations have become Christian in history, if only temporarily, so Israel will become a Christian nation at Christ's Return.

Only this time, the deliverance from Divine punishments will be lasting. And I think this Grace will be poured out not just on Israel, as a formerly failed chosen nation, but also on Gentiles nations who have been failing in their call, as well.

In other words, Paul is not talking about every citizen in Israel, among the Jews, will be "saved" in the evangelical sense. Rather, he is talking about the fulfillment of promises God made to Abraham to establish a nation of faith for his natural posterity, the nation Israel. And unless there is this restoration, then God's word of promise has failed.

Saving only half of Israel will not meet the test of Divine fidelity to His own word. A whole nation must be saved. And I think we are seeing that very struggle today.

 

[rwb]

It's in how you view Paul's sense of "all Israel will be saved." My view is that Paul held to the same sense that OT history used, that Israel would be saved politically, as a nation, if the nation, as a whole, properly observed God's laws.

What does Paul tell us in context Randy?

Paul tells us that when the fullness of Gentiles come into the same tree of faith is how all Israel shall be saved. Paul does not say when the fullness of Gentiles come in that the blindness in part to Israel in unbelief shall be lifted. But that seems to be how you are reading the passage.

Romans 11:25-27 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

How can "all Israel that shall be saved" be speaking of unbelieving ethnic Jews being saved since they can only be complete when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in? That makes "all Israel" a spiritual and not an ethnic people Randy.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What does Paul tell us in context Randy?

Paul tells us that when the fullness of Gentiles come into the same tree of faith is how all Israel shall be saved. Paul does not say when the fullness of Gentiles come in that the blindness in part to Israel in unbelief shall be lifted. But that seems to be how you are reading the passage.

Romans 11:25-27 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

How can "all Israel that shall be saved" be speaking of unbelieving ethnic Jews being saved since they can only be complete when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in? That makes "all Israel" a spiritual and not an ethnic people Randy.

You're right--that's how I read Rom 11, that when the fulness of the Gentiles come in, then Israel's blindness will be taken away and the entire nation will be delivered from outside oppression. What is holding back Jews and other backslidden nations today is the predominance of a hardened majority, who do not wish to submit to Divine authority. By force of influence, the minority who may wish to respond to God's word are kept from hearing God's word, and the force of persuasion in the media remains heavily weighted in favor of coercing people to remain connected to the rebellious majority.

What is holding back lifting this blindness is God's patience with all, delaying the destruction of the hardened majority until many are able to see the truth, however it may reach them. In the end, God will destroy those who hold this propagandistic power over their peoples, and many will be liberated to come to know Christ and his delivering power.

When formerly-Christian European peoples have completely lost their ability to rein in some of this corruption, God's judgment will fall-it will be the end of the time of Gentile oppression over Israel. Then Israel's blindness will be lifted and the entire nation will be restored under God's rule.

 

[ewq1938]

You're right--that's how I read Rom 11, that when the fulness of the Gentiles come in, then Israel's blindness will be taken away and the entire nation will be delivered from outside oppression.

Why were they blinded in the first place?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why were they blinded in the first place?

Human nature tends towards corruption. Nations tend towards corruption. Israel tends towards corruption. When Israel, who had the revelation of God, is tempted by sin, and is then choosing for sin, the result is blindness.

That's when God has to rely upon smaller and smaller minorities within the nation to carry the torch for Him. That minority will not break out of a hardened majority, who have consciously chosen to turn to sin, unless God brings devastating judgments upon the nation.

God has brought judgment upon Israel throughout the NT period. But He has held back on a more comprehensive judgment, to allow the process to work through not just Israel but all other nations who have now been given access to the revelation of God, as well.

When these opportunities to respond to God's word run their course, judgment will fall upon the world. And the minorities of faith. who have been repressed, will break out and establish God's way in this world.

 

[rwb]

You're right--that's how I read Rom 11, that when the fulness of the Gentiles come in, then Israel's blindness will be taken away and the entire nation will be delivered from outside oppression. What is holding back Jews and other backslidden nations today is the predominance of a hardened majority, who do not wish to submit to Divine authority. By force of influence, the minority who may wish to respond to God's word are kept from hearing God's word, and the force of persuasion in the media remains heavily weighted in favor of coercing people to remain connected to the rebellious majority.

Randy, if Ro 11 says all ethnic Israel shall be saved, then Paul is contradicting himself! Where does Paul say anywhere in Scripture that blindness in part to national Israel shall be lifted after the fullness of Gentiles are grafted into the same good olive tree of faith with faithful Jews? You're reading your doctrine into the passage in Ro 11.

Paul tells us the reason for this partial blindness is unbelief. Israel in unbelief can be grafted back into the good tree by believing in Christ, who has come to give eternal life to ALL who believe. But as long as they remain in unbelief there is no salvation for them simply because they are ethnic Jews. There is no such thing as a minority who may wish to respond to God's Word but are kept back from hearing His Word. Whosoever desires may freely come to Christ for eternal life through Him, and no power or authority can keep them from Him.

Read vss. 25-26 in light of what Paul says before that, including Ro 9. Paul says his desire is that SOME who are of his flesh (Jews) might be saved. NEVER does he say that all Israel to be saved are an ethnic people. Rather he takes great pains to prove "all Israel" that shall be saved are not ethnic Jews, but Israel of faith that includes both Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith together, so they are "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16).

Romans 11:14 (KJV) If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Romans 9:6-7 (KJV) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Romans 11:25-26 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 9:8 (KJV) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians 6:14-16 (KJV) But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

After saying his desire is to save SOME of his kinsmen according to the flesh, Paul takes great pains to show that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but a new creature according to faith. Just because they are Jews does not make them belong to the Israel of God. When the fullness of Gentiles are grafted into the same olive tree of faithful Jewish saints, the seventh trumpet will begin to sound that time given this world for man to be saved, shall be no longer. The time for being saved by grace through faith, becoming part of the Israel of God is NOW, in this age of grace, and when the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete as the last Gentile to be saved comes into the Kingdom of God eternal age on the new earth shall come. No mortal being nor corruption of any kind shall be permitted into the everlasting age to come.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy, if Ro 11 says all ethnic Israel shall be saved, then Paul is contradicting himself!

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that "all ethnic Israel" will be saved. And I never said that! What Paul said is that "all Israel" will be saved, defining "Israel" as a nation consisting largely of ethnic Jews.

There are Jews all across the earth and in Israel who will die under the judgments of God. They will not be saved. It is the *nation* that will be saved, which is, as I define it, and as the Bible defines it, a political state, providing for the Jewish People a homeland replete with a government and a faith, along with all of the natural resources necessary to sustain their economy and trade.

A simple example taken from the OT Scriptures would show you how Israel, as a political state, was sometimes completely conquered, and sometimes only partly conquered. God assured Israel that a time would come when their enemies would no longer harass them, and no longer defeat them. And they would have restored to them the territories that they formerly had to sustain a full statehood and independent political unit. Not only so, but these territories would consist of Israel's traditional territory in the Middle East--not somewhere in S. America or Africa!

Where does Paul say anywhere in Scripture that blindness in part to national Israel shall be lifted after the fullness of Gentiles are grafted into the same good olive tree of faith with faithful Jews? You're reading your doctrine into the passage in Ro 11.

Again, it doesn't sound like you're repeating my position--at least it isn't clear to me that you're doing that? I'm certainly not saying that blindness is lifted from Israel immediately after a full number of Gentiles are grafted into Christianity! The Gentiles were grafted into Christianity in the 1st century, and not over the many centuries since!

Grafting took place only at the point where Israel had been the standard bearer for the Christian Kingdom and it was forwarded on to the new torch-holders, the Gentile nations. After that, the grafting is complete, and Christian nations stand on their own, no longer needing to be grafted. They become natural bearers of God's Kingdom after a single generation.

What the passage does say, to me, is that there comes a point where the Gospel has sufficiently saturated the world so as to bring judgment upon world systems for rejecting that Gospel. Then God can relieve those who have been suppressed by this over-all rebellion against God's word.

In ancient OT history, this Gentile suppression of God's word was viewed through the lens of Israel's separation from the pagan Gentiles. Israel was to be holy and separated from outside paganism and corruption.

And yet, the outsiders, the Gentile nations, were not content with leaving Israel alone. Being greedy, covetous pagans, they constantly assaulted Israel, and opposed their religion. There would come a day when the suppression of Israel by pagan Gentile nations, and even the suppression of a righteous minority in backslidden Israel would be liberated from all opposition.

So when the full number of Gentiles have been given the same opportunity with the Gospel that Israel was given, it will be time to judge the world to deliver righteous minorities who have been both suppressed and oppressed. Jesus said we should let both the wheat and the weeds grow up together until it is time for harvest. And he said the righteous would indeed have to experience persecution before final deliverance comes.

Paul tells us the reason for this partial blindness is unbelief. Israel in unbelief can be grafted back into the good tree by believing in Christ, who has come to give eternal life to ALL who believe. But as long as they remain in unbelief there is no salvation for them simply because they are ethnic Jews.

We have no disagreement there. People raised up in Christianity who have fallen into unbelief and blindness may return to Christ, the Tree of Life. Then they will see again, and their blindness will be healed.

And certainly a person's ethnicity does not obtain Salvation any more than any human being can obtain Salvation apart from Christ. Only Christ could do the work of atonement.

However, God had promised that those who accept his Salvation will be drawn from both Israel and all ethnicities and nations. Even if God's original blueprint for the nations seems to fail, God will have those who complete the building, according to the original drawings. God's word from the beginning can never fail. He will provide people from all nations to complete His plan for Salvation.

There is no such thing as a minority who may wish to respond to God's Word but are kept back from hearing His Word. Whosoever desires may freely come to Christ for eternal life through Him, and no power or authority can keep them from Him.

I don't agree. Many who would accept Christ today don't because people around them are making noise. Just like "white pollution" bothers astronomers, or just as insomniacs need "white noise" to remedy sleep-depriving disturbances, so does political noise disrupt clear thinking about truth.

We all know what "group think" means. I'm sure you understand? Is there any other explanation for people across the West and in the Middle East and in the rest of the world for wanting to believe that Israel blows up hospitals? It is satanic propaganda that causes entire populations to follow a "Hitler" or any demagogue.

Read vss. 25-26 in light of what Paul says before that, including Ro 9. Paul says his desire is that SOME who are of his flesh (Jews) might be saved. NEVER does he say that all Israel to be saved are an ethnic people. Rather he takes great pains to prove "all Israel" that shall be saved are not ethnic Jews, but Israel of faith that includes both Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith together, so they are "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16).

Okay, I can see that you've completely misunderstood my point--likely because so many others have imposed a false definition of "nation" upon this passage. The passage is often portrays the "nation" as being a complete "ethnicity," instead of simply a "viable nation."

Actually, Paul is indicating that just as in the OT Israel was politically saved from their enemies through obedience to the Law so now in the NT era Israel will be politically delivered from their enemies through coming to Christ at his Return. A "nation" is a political unit, and the salvation of a political unit is not the same thing as bringing spiritual Salvation to a total number of ethnic Jews!

None of this means that every ethnic Jew on earth or in Israel will be saved. It's just saying that the "nation" will be saved as such, to have a full political entity in the tradition of their original calling. God's fidelity to His promise to Abraham is perennially important. God promised Abraham a "nation." And He isn't going to fulfill that promise by restoring only a small part of that nation, or only half of what a nation needs to survive. He will restore a full and complete nation.

As to individuals who get saved on earth, it doesn't matter whether they are Jew or Gentile. Ethnicity is not the litmus test for qualifying for Salvation. But God does require, according to His promises, that He draw upon every ethnicity--certainly not everybody within a certain ethnicity!

So when Paul said that ethnicity is not a litmus test for Salvation he was *not* denying the importance of including a variety and plurality of nations and ethnicities in Salvation. In every ethnicity and nation there will be those who are *not* Saved! We agree on this, I should think?

 

[rwb]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that "all ethnic Israel" will be saved. And I never said that! What Paul said is that "all Israel" will be saved, defining "Israel" as a nation consisting largely of ethnic Jews.

Randy, you're reading "nation" into the text when it is NOT there. Paul clearly says that Gentiles coming into Israel is how "all Israel shall be saved." Paul does not say then the blindness shall be lifted so the nation can then be called a Christian nation.

There are Jews all across the earth and in Israel who will die under the judgments of God. They will not be saved. It is the *nation* that will be saved, which is, as I define it, and as the Bible defines it, a political state, providing for the Jewish People a homeland replete with a government and a faith, along with all of the natural resources necessary to sustain their economy and trade.

Yes, the nation, called "the Israel of God" shall be saved. Neither Paul nor the Bible are in agreement with how you define Israel as "a political state" after the fullness of the Gentiles become part of "all Israel that shall be saved." There will not be "the Jewish people a homeland replete with a government and a faith, along with all of the natural resources necessary to sustain their economy and trade", as you imagine. The nation of Israel have that now, but without faith! They have no Savior in this age because they do not believe in Christ, and therefore have no Saviour. Once the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, when the fullness of the Gentiles have been saved, all the things that belong to this earth shall pass away and all things shall become new again. Israel will not be given another opportunity then to turn to Christ for salvation, because time shall be no longer.

Again, it doesn't sound like you're repeating my position--at least it isn't clear to me that you're doing that? I'm certainly not saying that blindness is lifted from Israel immediately after a full number of Gentiles are grafted into Christianity! The Gentiles were grafted into Christianity in the 1st century, and not over the many centuries since!

The fullness of the Gentiles cannot be before every human to be saved is physically born, then according to grace through faith they must be born again of the Spirit. The Gentiles have been being grafted in with the good olive tree of faith, Jews of faith since Christ came to earth with the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, and showed how He is the only way to obtain eternal life according to grace through faith. The great innumerable multitude from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue that shall be in heaven were not complete in the first century.

Grafting took place only at the point where Israel had been the standard bearer for the Christian Kingdom and it was forwarded on to the new torch-holders, the Gentile nations. After that, the grafting is complete, and Christian nations stand on their own, no longer needing to be grafted. They become natural bearers of God's Kingdom after a single generation.

The spiritual Kingdom of God is inhabited by individual people as they turn to Christ in faith by the power of the Gospel and Holy Spirit. As Paul says in 1Cor 15 "each in his own order." Nations are made up of PEOPLE! And only those people who become saved are of His holy nation "the Israel of God". Not an ethnic people, but a people of faith.

What the passage does say, to me, is that there comes a point where the Gospel has sufficiently saturated the world so as to bring judgment upon world systems for rejecting that Gospel. Then God can relieve those who have been suppressed by this over-all rebellion against God's word.

I don't mean to be rude Randy, but I frankly don't care what a passage might say to you! If you cannot biblically prove what you think the passage means, then it is simply opinion. Sadly, your entire lengthy reply is replete with your opinions without support from a single verse from Scripture.

We have no disagreement there. People raised up in Christianity who have fallen into unbelief and blindness may return to Christ, the Tree of Life. Then they will see again, and their blindness will be healed.

This is not true! Once the fullness of Gentiles completes the Israel of God there will be no more time for any in unbelief to return to Christ to have their blindness healed. This is the day/age/time given this earth to be saved by grace through faith. Once the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete through the fullness of the Gentiles the last trumpet shall sound and time shall be no longer, the mystery of God will be complete.

Revelation 10:6-7 (KJV) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The mystery that had been hidden in times past is Gentiles too shall inhabit by grace through faith the Kingdom of God with Jews of faith. Before the advent of Christ coming to earth a man it was believed that salvation was only for the Jews. It wasn't until the Gospel was sent into all the nations of the earth that Gentiles too would be eternally saved through the power of the Gospel and Spirit.

Romans 16:25-26 (KJV) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Ephesians 3:2-7 (KJV) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Once the fullness of the Gentiles have come in to the good olive tree of faith with Jews of faith, they mystery of God should be finished, the seventh angel will begin to sound and time shall be no longer.

I don't agree. Many who would accept Christ today don't because people around them are making noise. Just like "white pollution" bothers astronomers, or just as insomniacs need "white noise" to remedy sleep-depriving disturbances, so does political noise disrupt clear thinking about truth.

I really hope you don't really believe what you've stated here??? Because you are saying that mankind is more powerful than God. That we have the ability to hold people who desire Christ for salvation from believing??? Even Satan has power ONLY over those who have no desire for Christ, but he has no power, nor do we to keep people who desire to be saved from receiving Christ according to God's GRACE through FAITH! God will have mercy on whom He will!

Romans 9:18 (KJV) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Okay, I can see that you've completely misunderstood my point--likely because so many others have imposed a false definition of "nation" upon this passage. The passage is often portrays the "nation" as being a complete "ethnicity," instead of simply a "viable nation."

Since the advent of Christ's coming, ushering in the New Covenant through His blood and resurrection the only nation that shall be in Christ is the Israel of faith with shall be filled with peoples from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue.

1 Peter 2:9-10 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy, you're reading "nation" into the text when it is NOT there. Paul clearly says that Gentiles coming into Israel is how "all Israel shall be saved." Paul does not say then the blindness shall be lifted so the nation can then be called a Christian nation.

I don't think I'm reading the "nation" of Israel into this at all. And it is not, from my point of view, describing *how* Israel be saved. It is describing the *way* Israel will be saved, as following after a time of Gentile dominance and Christianity.

It is not, for example, describing how Israel must be saved, just as Gentiles are saved by grace. Paul had earlier dealt with this by describing how nobody under the Law could achieve Salvation apart from the atonement of Christ. It would be repetitive for Paul to explain again that Israel is saved by Grace.

But here Paul is explaining that there is a big delay before *national salvation* can take place, involving the sense of political salvation as well a Israel's return to God. So we apparently see things differently?

Yes, the nation, called "the Israel of God" shall be saved.

Yes, I did *not* read "nation" into the text. "Israel" is clearly mentioned, which is a "nation" by definition. You seem to be accepting that here, whereas just a moment ago you seemed to be denying that??

Neither Paul nor the Bible are in agreement with how you define Israel as "a political state" after the fullness of the Gentiles become part of "all Israel that shall be saved."

The way you are reading this is suspect to me-it doesn't even sound sensible. What are you really saying? Are you saying that the "fullness of the Gentiles become part of "all Israel?" What does that even mean?

I don't at all agree with you if you suggest that the Bible doesn't agree that Israel is defined as a "political state." A theocracy is a political state, and that is how Israel was defined as a nation, as being under a theocracy, aka the Kingdom of God.

There will not be "the Jewish people a homeland replete with a government and a faith, along with all of the natural resources necessary to sustain their economy and trade", as you imagine.

How can you say that? Israel is already a self-sustaining political state! The fact it was only a part of a state mandated that it expand to allow for a greater influx of Jews, along with protections for incoming water supply, buffers against enemies, etc. Israel has become a complete state over time because half a state simply didn't do the trick.

The nation of Israel have that now, but without faith!

A small remnant of Jews in Israel do have faith, but you're right--most of the nation does not have faith. That doesn't mean God isn't leading them towards ultimate judgment, and restoration among the relative few who repent. And those who repent at Christ's coming can certainly start to rebuild the nation to its full potential, as well as in the faith.

Israel will not be given another opportunity then to turn to Christ for salvation, because time shall be no longer.

This is where I strongly disagree. Even under the Law God's promises were stated as everlasting. Every time Israel failed they could be restored under the Law. And even if they failed the Law as a system completely, they could still be restored, just as the new covenant of Christ promises. OT prophecy indicates that Israel will be completed via the New Covenant, and not prevented by it. That's what Jer 31 indicates.

The fullness of the Gentiles cannot be before every human to be saved is physically born, then according to grace through faith they must be born again of the Spirit. The Gentiles have been being grafted in with the good olive tree of faith, Jews of faith since Christ came to earth with the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, and showed how He is the only way to obtain eternal life according to grace through faith. The great innumerable multitude from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue that shall be in heaven were not complete in the first century.

Well, of course the full number of Christians had not been born and reborn in the 1st century, and I've not stated otherwise. The "fulness of Gentiles," as described by Paul, is the time when God reaches out to save Gentile nations until like Israel they become closed to the Gospel. That's when judgment will fall upon the whole world.

The spiritual Kingdom of God is inhabited by individual people as they turn to Christ in faith by the power of the Gospel and Holy Spirit. As Paul says in 1Cor 15 "each in his own order." Nations are made up of PEOPLE! And only those people who become saved are of His holy nation "the Israel of God". Not an ethnic people, but a people of faith.

You are "replacing" the definition of "nation" as a political state with its definition as "individuals" spiritually united in Christ. This does disservice to God's promises and turns "Israel" into some kind of metaphor.

I don't mean to be rude Randy, but I frankly don't care what a passage might say to you! If you cannot biblically prove what you think the passage means, then it is simply opinion. Sadly, your entire lengthy reply is replete with your opinions without support from a single verse from Scripture.

And I don't care if you don't like what I have to say. I say what I feel the Bible teaches, and I'm very prepared to back up everything I state with biblical references. You should, in the interest of good sportsmanship have a semblance of interest in what I believe. I would be suspect if your beliefs drag you down into carnality and rudeness--it isn't a good sign that you're on track. The same would apply to me.

This is not true! Once the fullness of Gentiles completes the Israel of God there will be no more time for any in unbelief to return to Christ to have their blindness healed. This is the day/age/time given this earth to be saved by grace through faith. Once the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete through the fullness of the Gentiles the last trumpet shall sound and time shall be no longer, the mystery of God will be complete.

This is a common Amillennial belief--one that I was raised with. I also was taught that "time shall be no more" when Christ comes back. When the eternal age begins, the opportunity for repentance and salvation is gone.

But I don't believe that anymore, since I've become a Premillennialist. I think Christ will come back to complete prophecies that aren't completed in the present age. Salvation will continue in the next age, as I see it, whether you are interested in my views or not. I do believe the Bible speaks of a Millennium. And I do believe Biblical Prophecy is replete with promises of Israel's ultimate national salvation, which *hasn't happened yet!*

But you don't have to believe me. Just keep reading the newspapers. I think Zech 12 is being fulfilled. The horses and riders of Islamic Jihadists are going mad, and they are running into a buzzsaw. Israel isn't immune to judgment here, but the nation must survive and will survive, if I'm right.

Revelation 10:6-7 (KJV) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

You interpret that particular translation wrong. It isn't saying the time itself will cease to exist since God has already promised that earth and the heaven are eternal. That is, they continue in time forever.

What the passage is actually saying is that the sequence of time will come to prophetic fulfillment at a particular moment in time, at the return of Christ. That is, time will reach a point of fulfillment. There will be no more waiting, no more time for waiting, because the fulfillment will have arrived.

I really hope you don't really believe what you've stated here??? Because you are saying that mankind is more powerful than God. That we have the ability to hold people who desire Christ for salvation from believing??? Even Satan has power ONLY over those who have no desire for Christ, but he has no power, nor do we to keep people who desire to be saved from receiving Christ according to God's GRACE through FAITH! God will have mercy on whom He will!

I think you're very, very wrong. Jesus warned his Disciples about "false prophets" and "false Christs" precisely because they do have the power to inhibit the expression of faith and obedience. Distractions or distortions always hurt God's people, which is precisely why they need to be built up in faith and strengthened for spiritual combat.

Of course I'm certainly *not* saying people are stronger than God. That has nothing to do with it. God lets the wicked have their day so that they may be judged for what they freely choose to do. How can they be judged unless they reveal the wickedness in their hearts through deeds that they are allowed to do? And if God allows the wicked to *be wicked,* then there will always be innocent victims of this wickedness, especially Christians, just like Christ was a victim.

 

[rwb]

I don't think I'm reading the "nation" of Israel into this at all. And it is not, from my point of view, describing *how* Israel be saved. It is describing the *way* Israel will be saved, as following after a time of Gentile dominance and Christianity.

It is not, for example, describing how Israel must be saved, just as Gentiles are saved by grace. Paul had earlier dealt with this by describing how nobody under the Law could achieve Salvation apart from the atonement of Christ. It would be repetitive for Paul to explain again that Israel is saved by Grace.

But here Paul is explaining that there is a big delay before *national salvation* can take place, involving the sense of political salvation as well a Israel's return to God. So we apparently see things differently?

Exactly Randy! Paul clearly says that all Israel shall be saved by the fullness, meaning complete number of them, have come in to the same good olive tree of faith with Israel or Jews of faith. IOW it is in this manner, this way that "all Israel shall be saved". So, I ask once again how can all Israel that shall be saved mean an ethnic nation as you portend? If all Israel that shall be saved includes Jews & Gentiles of faith, then it clearly cannot mean an ethnic nation, but is most definitely a spiritual nation.

Paul does not speak of Gentile dominance and. Because he shows there is no distinction between Jew of faith and Gentile of faith. If there is no longer one or the other, how can one be dominant? Yes, Paul is describing the way or how all the Israel of God shall be saved.

It doesn't matter whether one is Jew or Gentile ethnically, because ALL people must be saved in the same way. That is by grace of God through faith alone. That's true whether the faithful lived before or after the cross. The Law was to be their schoolmaster or teacher to lead them to Christ. The prophets foretell of Messiah to come, and all those of Old who believed (had faith) are saved by grace through faith the same way all peoples are saved since His coming. Old Covenant Israel of faith kept the Laws and heeded the Prophets because they believed by grace. They did not obey the Law and Prophets to be saved, but because they were saved.

Paul makes no mention of this national salvation that to my knowledge none, but you ascribe to. He says only that "all Israel shall be saved" AFTER the fullness or complete number of Gentiles have also been saved. Those of this earth that are saved are the Israel of God and all of them shall be saved.

Yes, I did *not* read "nation" into the text. "Israel" is clearly mentioned, which is a "nation" by definition. You seem to be accepting that here, whereas just a moment ago you seemed to be denying that??

Yes, you are reading national salvation for ethnic Israel into the words of Paul. And you do this by reading more time extended beyond the complete number to be saved has expired.

The way you are reading this is suspect to me-it doesn't even sound sensible. What are you really saying? Are you saying that the "fullness of the Gentiles become part of "all Israel?" What does that even mean?

I've explained, using Scripture, how Paul speaks of a very distinct Christian peoples, calling them "Israel of God". (I've shown you the Scriptures) And how Paul now shows us this Israel of God shall be Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith together. I think you understand, but you refuse to let go of this national conversion that you think will come for ethnic Israel, where most of them will have another chance and turn to Christ for salvation, once the fullness of Gentiles have been saved along with Jews of faith. There shall not be two bodies of Christ. There is only one people, one nation, one body, on faith, ONE Christ. When Christ comes again it will be to gather together His peoples from every nation of the earth. The spiritual Kingdom of God is complete and there will not be given more time to this earth for anyone to turn to Christ for salvation.

I don't at all agree with you if you suggest that the Bible doesn't agree that Israel is defined as a "political state." A theocracy is a political state, and that is how Israel was defined as a nation, as being under a theocracy, aka the Kingdom of God.

The country called Israel is a political state, a theocracy NOW, in this age of grace, but it is NOT the Kingdom of God, not even a representative of the Kingdom of God. It is also apostate, and an abomination unto the Lord as it exists in this world. The nation now called Israel of this earth, shall NOT one day be a physical Kingdom of God here. Christ very clearly speaks of this world not being the Kingdom of God, nor is the Kingdom of God going to be of this world. Christ clearly says My Kingdom is NOT of this world, for My Kingdom is within you!

Looking for the Kingdom of God to come physically to this earth, and specifically to ethnic Israel is to read your doctrine into the Scriptures.

Israel is already a self-sustaining political state! The fact it was only a part of a state mandated that it expand to allow for a greater influx of Jews, along with protections for incoming water supply, buffers against enemies, etc. Israel has become a complete state over time because half a state simply didn't do the trick.

You agree, Israel is NOW a self-sustaining political nation! Why do you add it is only part of a state, when you admit it is now a complete self-sustaining state? The rest of what you say here Randy does not come from Scripture, but rather is your doctrine that you are trying to force into the Word of God.

What your doctrine omits is how Jewish Israel was indeed a nation beloved by God. God chose them to be representatives of the spiritual Kingdom of God on earth. Christ came from the nation of Old, He was born a Jew. But having these great privileges came with a command that they MUST always remain faithful to the ONE True God. But they abandoned that privilege when they turned away from God and served and worshipped false gods and idols. By committing spiritual adultery God rejected them as a nation, and the result of their apostasy was that God now has no favorite sons or daughters in Christ. He has only ONE holy nation, "Israel of God". But you seem to believe that none of that really matters. Because God will once again turn back to the ethnic Jewish nation of Israel, and extend His favor upon only them, giving them another chance to turn to Christ AFTER the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete through Gentiles of faith. This doctrine does not come from the Word of God, but you are trying very hard, and without support from Scripture, to force your doctrine into the Bible. In doing so you force contradiction and error into God's Holy Word.

A small remnant of Jews in Israel do have faith, but you're right--most of the nation does not have faith. That doesn't mean God isn't leading them towards ultimate judgment, and restoration among the relative few who repent. And those who repent at Christ's coming can certainly start to rebuild the nation to its full potential, as well as in the faith.

God is not leading them towards judgment and restoration! They have led themselves towards judgment and only those who turn to Christ for salvation before the last trumpet sounds will belong to the Israel of God. There will not be time given for them or anyone else to repent and turn to Christ after He has come again. There will be no rebuilding of the physical nation as you imagine. All that belongs to this earth shall be utterly destroyed never to exist again, and the new eternal age will be ushered in. A new heaven and new earth where there shall exist only righteousness, with no more sin, no more sorrow, no more death, or dying. All things shall be made new again as new Jerusalem the holy city in heaven comes down as a bride adorned for her Husband. There will not be a second chance for ethnic Israelites to turn to Christ once He has come the second and only time again.

This is where I strongly disagree. Even under the Law God's promises were stated as everlasting.

Everlasting with a COMMAND! God's commands require obedience! The ethnic nation of Israel forsook God and disobeyed His commands when they chose to serve and worship other gods and rejected the Messiah! If the ethnic nation had remained faithful as they promised God they would, the promises God made to them could have been everlasting. They rejected Him and became an abomination in His sight. Now their only hope is to turn to Christ, the promised Messiah in faith for salvation before the last trumpet sounds, just as the same applies to every other nation of this world.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Exactly Randy! Paul clearly says that all Israel shall be saved by the fullness, meaning complete number of them, have come in to the same good olive tree of faith with Israel or Jews of faith. IOW it is in this manner, this way that "all Israel shall be saved".

No, we are not in agreement on that. You are describing "how" Israel is saved. And Paul is here describing the "way" Israel is saved, by a long delay in her political salvation. By "political salvation" I mean that the nation needs to be delivered, militarily, from her enemies, to survive as a political state.

As I said before, in the Scriptures political salvation is dependent upon spiritual obedience. And so, in the NT era, Israel's political salvation is dependent upon her coming to Christ. And even before they come to Christ there is already a faithful remnant of believers in Israel who are paving the way for this. God is not willing to destroy Israel when there are many still who need to hear the Gospel, who are ignorant about Christ.

I believe Christ is coming back for Israel in their ignorance. He will save Israel even though they appear to not deserve it, because in their ignorance they live idolatrous lives. But Christ will come back to enlighten them, and to save them. The remnant of believers in Israel is praying for them, for their *political deliverance." The Prophets said that one day Israel would be delivered from their enemies, to be oppressed *no more!*

When Israel turned against Christ during his earthly ministry, they sent the nation into an age of punishment. And many Jews grew up in ignorance, due to the direction their forefathers sent them. But that initial disobedience began an era in which Jews were taught to be wary of Christianity and to think of Christians as persecutors. As a result, God's punishment upon their people has continued, with Israel's enemies being unrelenting--all due to Israel's intransigence and commitment to opposing Christianity. This is the "dominance of Gentiles over Israel" that I spoke of.

But one day soon Christ will come back to remove the influence of ungodly leaders in Israel, and the ignorant will come to know the truth. This has simply been delayed to allow time for other nations to go through the same process Israel went through in ancient history, coming to know the Lord, but ultimately leaving only a small remnant of believers who are faithful to God.

When the world has become completely hardened, like Israel has, to the truth, then judgment will fall upon all nations. This will liberate Jews not just from their own bad leaders but also from nations that have become pagan and hateful towards them. This will be Israel's "final deliverance." My opinion, of course.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Because he shows there is no distinction between Jew of faith and Gentile of faith. If there is no longer one or the other, how can one be dominant? Yes, Paul is describing the way or how all the Israel of God shall be saved.

Well, at this point it's become clear that you're simply ignoring my argument to protest my position in favor of your own position. I've gone to lengths to explain this, and you certainly don't have to agree with me. But you're not just addressing the issues I raised, and for that purpose any further discourse will be fruitless.

I've told you why I believe there is a distinction between Jews and non-Jews with the same faith. The Bible plainly distinguishes between nations and ethnicities. So you apparently wish to void this by reasserting the theological statement that there are none of these distinctions *with respect to Salvation.*

So for me, these distinctions are not a matter of Salvation. Ethnicity is not a litmus test to qualify one for Salvation. We both agree on this, but that is not the issue.

Yes, you are reading national salvation for ethnic Israel into the words of Paul. And you do this by reading more time extended beyond the complete number to be saved has expired.

No, again Paul is not arguing *how* Israel is saved. He is not arguing that Israel is saved exclusively by Christian grace. He has already argued that elsewhere.

Here, in my opinion, Paul is explaining the "way" Israel is saved, which is through a long process by which the "weeds grow up along with the wheat." National Salvation is delayed so as to allow more time for the peoples of all nations to hear the Gospel and so receive Salvation. This "way" that Israel will come to her political salvation is by her enduring an age of punishment in which Gentile nations continue to hound and persecute her.

I think you understand, but you refuse to let go of this national conversion that you think will come for ethnic Israel, where most of them will have another chance and turn to Christ for salvation, once the fullness of Gentiles have been saved along with Jews of faith.

I'm not "refusing to let go of Israel's political salvation," but reasserting what is ubiquitous throughout the OT Prophets. Again and again, Israel's salvation is described in political terms, as a nation being saved from her enemies. And this deliverance was conditioned, in the Law of Moses, upon Israel's return to the laws of God.

So it should not be strange to you that this process is still going on, of Israel seeking political deliverance from her enemies by a return to her God. This is precisely what needs to take place if indeed there will be a political deliverance for Israel at all.

There shall not be two bodies of Christ.

I have not said there are two bodies of Christ. What I'm saying is that there are many nations in the Body of Christ, including Israel. Many nations have become "nations of God," including Israel. But over time, the people are corrupted and fall away from their God. And then a false leadership takes over, keeping the people stuck in their ignorance.

This is what has happened to Israel. And it is also what is happening among Christian European-like nations. When this process of hearing the Gospel, accepting it, then turning away from it crystalizes into a completely-resistant world leadership, Divine judgment will fall, and nations, like Israel, will be delivered from the stranglehold this ungodly leadership has over their people.

The country called Israel is a political state, a theocracy NOW, in this age of grace, but it is NOT the Kingdom of God, not even a representative of the Kingdom of God.

I said that Israel had the Kingdom of God, in limited form, in the OT period--not in the NT period. In the NT period Christian nations have this same Kingdom of God, also in limited form, until these nations turn apostate and abandon the very Kingdom they have been given.

You agree, Israel is NOW a self-sustaining political nation! Why do you add it is only part of a state, when you admit it is now a complete self-sustaining state?

Israel is still fighting for its survival. There are parts of the nation, eg the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, etc. that are not allowing Israel to find peace, threatening its existence with the help of Islamic and other hostile nations.

He has only ONE holy nation, "Israel of God".

This is what I call "Replacement Theology." From my point of view you "replace" the political definition of Israel with a metaphorical use of the term to indicate a spiritualized entity. This disallows the movement of political Israel back into the Kingdom of God, which is forbidden. To deny Israel her ability to achieve "Christianization" is a virtual crime in my book.

You may very well allow for a very small remnant to be saved. But to deny the vast majority of the population the ability to convert to being a Christian country is intolerable in my book and is anything but Christian. However, it is just your opinion, and it is an almost antisemitic opinion held by Christians throughout the centuries. I don't blame you for that.

There will not be time given for them or anyone else to repent and turn to Christ after He has come again.

At least you suggest that anybody in Israel can turn to Christ *now,* before Christ comes again! But denying the possibility of entire nations converting to Christ is a denial of the entire history of Western Civilization!

Haven't you studied Western History? If Italy, England, France, Germany, Scandinavia, and the many nations in Eastern Europe converted to Christian governments, how is it that you deny Israel's ability, as a nation, to convert to Christianity and to adopt a Christian government?

If you have real arguments, I'll read them more thoroughly and answer in detail. But you're just on a soapbox reasserting your views, without arguing the real points.

Get back to me when you get off of your soapbox. I don't need to hear what you *believe* over and over--just the reasons for your believing the way you do.

 

[rwb]

Well, at this point it's become clear that you're simply ignoring my argument to protest my position in favor of your own position. I've gone to lengths to explain this, and you certainly don't have to agree with me. But you're not just addressing the issues I raised, and for that purpose any further discourse will be fruitless.

The problem I find with your opinions Randy is that is what they are OPINIONS! It's truly become an exercise in futility to continue to discuss one's opinions, especially since you've repeatedly shown you will continue to promote your opinions without a single verse of Scripture to prove what you THINK might be true. Unless you can prove what you allege using the Bible to support what you think, your opinions are simply that....UNPROVEN OPINIONS that find no help from the Bible.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The problem I find with your opinions Randy is that is what they are OPINIONS! It's truly become an exercise in futility to continue to discuss one's opinions, especially since you've repeatedly shown you will continue to promote your opinions without a single verse of Scripture to prove what you THINK might be true. Unless you can prove what you allege using the Bible to support what you think, your opinions are simply that....UNPROVEN OPINIONS that find no help from the Bible.

It may appear that way to you, but in reality, *everything is an opinion!* The humble person admits that rather than try to indoctrinate others on matters that many find arguable. It is just the pleasant way to state something without sounding "beyond question."

I have biblical passages and verses, and I am always quoting them. If you don't find that to be the case with you it may be because I've had many, many discussions on the same subjects and have on numerous occasion provided these Bible references.

I've gotten this complaint on a regular basis, but the complainer usually goes away when I restate the references that I've stated many times before *just for them.* Please mention a single point I've stated that does not have a basis in Scripture? I've spent my entire life in Scripture, and perhaps I take for granted that you can see where I get my statements from?

There are other issues that are language issues, grammatical issues, historical issues, logic issues, etc. etc. These cannot have as a basis Scripture references since they are purely matters of language and communication, or of processing information properly that we've already established.

But you simply state, dogmatically, what you believe, and because it is based on Scripture you find that gives you authority to state your beliefs as if it is not an "opinion?" Don't fool yourself--even Scripture based statements are opinions. Everything is an opinion, or at least should be given as such out of respect for those who see things differently.

Let me just suggest that defining "Israel" as a political entity does not require a "Scriptural basis" since, as I said, it is ubiquitously used as such in the Scriptures. Why would you need Scriptures for this? And I've provided them many times with respect to the hope of Israel's NT political deliverance. It is there in Acts 1 and in Rom 11--I grow weary in citing it word for word.

It frankly amazes me that you accuse me of avoiding Scriptural references since I initiated this very post with a reference to Scripture passages. The "woman" is in Rev 12, and the "madness" is in Zech 12. How can you get any less Scriptural?

 

[rwb]

It may appear that way to you, but in reality, *everything is an opinion!* The humble person admits that rather than try to indoctrinate others on matters that many find arguable. It is just the pleasant way to state something without sounding "beyond question."

We all have opinions Randy, including myself. And I agree none of us can have understanding of Scripture beyond question. This is a Bible forum for discussing Scripture, not our opinions without Scripture. So why are your opinions typically given without bringing forth verses and passages from the Words of God to prove whether or not your opinions are Biblical? We can continue to comment on our opinions, but our opinions are not valid, nor should they even be considered without at the very least trying to prove what you believe comes from Scripture and not what our mind has conceived to be what Biblical doctrine ought to teach according to what we think.

I've gotten this complaint on a regular basis, but the complainer usually goes away when I restate the references that I've stated many times before *just for them.* Please mention a single point I've stated that does not have a basis in Scripture? I've spent my entire life in Scripture, and perhaps I take for granted that you can see where I get my statements from?

Prove from the Bible the opinion that "all Israel that shall be saved" speaks of a national rather than a spiritual people. To do so you have to ignore Paul telling us that all Israel shall be saved when the fullness of Gentiles of faith are grafted together with Jews of faith together. Then explain who Paul is speaking of when he speaks of "the Israel of God" that are neither of the circumcision nor uncircumcision, but a new creature in Christ.

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

You interpret Ro 11 to fit your doctrine, rather than accept the words of Paul found not only in Ro 11 but throughout his letters. You keep insisting Paul is speaking of a nationalistic salvific plan for unbelieving Jews after the advent of Christ tearing down the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile. For that reason Paul tells us that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but one holy people, holy nation, Jerusalem from above which in Christ both Jew and Gentile of faith spiritually belong to.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

But you simply state, dogmatically, what you believe, and because it is based on Scripture you find that gives you authority to state your beliefs as if it is not an "opinion?" Don't fool yourself--even Scripture based statements are opinions. Everything is an opinion, or at least should be given as such out of respect for those who see things differently.

That may be true. Even using Scripture thinking we prove why we understand verses and passages as we do does not make our understanding true. However by giving supporting Scripture for the reason we believe we have correctly discerned, we have opportunity to be shown why or which passages of Scripture we have not considered that will prove our understanding causes the Word of God to be contradictive. If we use only our opinion without support from the Word of God, what is there to discuss? Our opinions are our opinions, who can change our mind unless using the Word of God? It's the Word of God that gives clarity to our opinions, but who has all biblical knowledge, who has memorized every verse and passage? What is there to fear, but truth?

Let me just suggest that defining "Israel" as a political entity does not require a "Scriptural basis" since, as I said, it is ubiquitously used as such in the Scriptures. Why would you need Scriptures for this? And I've provided them many times with respect to the hope of Israel's NT political deliverance. It is there in Acts 1 and in Rom 11--I grow weary in citing it word for word.

Yes, yes it does! When you tell us Paul is defining "all Israel that shall be saved" as a political entity, you have forced your doctrine onto the words of Paul. Because Paul tells us that "all Israel that shall be saved" is fulfilled by the fullness of Gentiles of faith being grafted into the olive tree of faith with them. That makes "all Israel that shall be saved" a spiritual people and not the ethnic people you think they are. If repeatedly quoting Scripture in a Bible forum makes you grow weary, perhaps you should think about what it means to participate in a Bible Forum.