madness and the woman

[Randy Kluth]

I don't really like to interpret biblical prophecy in terms of current events--I think it can be a little silly and actually abusive. However, I can't resist pointing out a couple of prophecies given 2000 years ago and even over 2500 years ago that could be conceivably fulfilled in our own time. I'm talking about Zechariah 12 and Revelation 12. These two prophecies speak of what appears to be Israel far off in the future when Israel's final battle for existence takes place. According to Revelation 12, it begins with a great dragon, Satan, who tries to destroy the child of a great woman. It appears that the woman is Israel, and the child is Jesus because it is said that the child is destined to rule the world.

Anyway, the woman is protected by the two wings of a great eagle. I was watching the news tonight, and recognized that both political parties in the US, Democrat and Republican, are turning their support to Israel! How could that happen?

So the Devil is angry and spews a flood after the woman, which could be an army. And the earth opens its mouth and swallows the river. Could this be the world coming to Israel's aid to defeat terrorist attacks?

In Zechariah 12 we read that Jerusalem will become the center of international assault. But Israel will become like a fire in the midst of a wood pile, and its army become strong like King David, devouring all of the surrounding enemies who attack her.

We live in interesting days. Those who rise against Israel will be driven in a kind of madness, which is clearly what I see in this Islamic phobia and mania. It is blood lust and antisemitic hate.

There are many prophecies about the last times, in which Israel fights a final battle for her survival. Her survival was promised 4000 years ago to a man named Abraham, and God was so pleased with him that he was promised a nation forever. The strange thing is, Christians gave up all hope that their God could keep this promise to the Jewish People because in 70 AD they lost their homeland, and have been wandering Jews over the last 2000 years!

That means these prophecies could *not* have been fulfilled over the last 20 centuries or so! It has become a hallmark of God's fidelity to His own word, His enduring promises, and his endless grace. It has become a picture of God's fortitude and patience, wishing all to have time to come to Him as their God and Lord. It's all in the Bible!

 

[ewq1938]

So the Devil is angry and spews a flood after the woman, which could be an army. And the earth opens its mouth and swallows the river. Could this be the world coming to Israel's aid to defeat terrorist attacks?

No. The woman in Rev 12 is Christian as her children are Christian. She isn't harmed at all unlike today's Israel who was attacked and was not protected by the Earth.

 

[quietthinker]

I don't really like to interpret biblical prophecy in terms of current events--I think it can be a little silly and actually abusive. However, I can't resist pointing out a couple of prophecies given 2000 years ago and even over 2500 years ago that could be conceivably fulfilled in our own time. I'm talking about Zechariah 12 and Revelation 12. These two prophecies speak of what appears to be Israel far off in the future when Israel's final battle for existence takes place. According to Revelation 12, it begins with a great dragon, Satan, who tries to destroy the child of a great woman. It appears that the woman is Israel, and the child is Jesus because it is said that the child is destined to rule the world.

Anyway, the woman is protected by the two wings of a great eagle. I was watching the news tonight, and recognized that both political parties, Democrat and Republican, are turning their support to Israel! How could that happen?

So the Devil is angry and spews a flood after the woman, which could be an army. And the earth opens its mouth and swallows the river. Could this be the world coming to Israel's aid to defeat terrorist attacks?

In Zechariah 12 we read that Jerusalem will become the center of international assault. But Israel will become like a fire in the midst of a wood pile, and its army become strong like King David, devouring all of the surrounding enemies who attack her.

We live in interesting days. Those who rise against Israel will be driven in a kind of madness, which is clearly what I see in this Islamic phobia and mania. It is blood lust and antisemitic hate.

There are many prophecies about the last times, in which Israel fights a final battle for her survival. Her survival was promised 4000 years ago to a man named Abraham, and God was so pleased with him that he was promised a nation forever. The strange thing is, Christians gave up all hope that their God could keep this promise to the Jewish People because in 70 AD they lost their homeland, and have been wandering Jews over the last 2000 years!

That means these prophecies could *not* have been fulfilled over the last 20 centuries or so! It has become a mark of God's fidelity to His own word, His enduring promises, and his endless grace. It has become a picture of God's fortitude and patience, wishing all to have time to come to Him as their God and Lord. It's all in the Bible!

.....if the premise is incorrect, so is everything built on it.
Would the premise be questioned?

 

[Randy Kluth]

No. The woman in Rev 12 is Christian as her children are Christian. She isn't harmed at all unlike today's Israel who was attacked and was not protected by the Earth.

I agree that the Woman is called to be Christian. A remnant of Israel is presently Christian. Israel's destiny is to be a Christian nation. "And so, all Israel will be saved." (Rom 11)

My interpretation of the "Woman" is not "set in stone." It's a difficult prophecy for me.

 

[marks]

I don't really like to interpret biblical prophecy in terms of current events--

No, but that's not what we are doing when we know what the prophecies themselves say, and when we see things in the world the same as they describe, Hey, don't we pay attention?

This is what convinced me the Bible was truth, in 1981. Now all the more so!

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, but that's not what we are doing when we know what the prophecies themselves say, and when we see things in the world the same as they describe, Hey, don't we pay attention?

This is what convinced me the Bible was truth, in 1981. Now all the more so!

Much love!

Yes, I actually lifted this post of mine, which was somewhat watered down, from Facebook. On our forum here there is less concern about "crazy interpretations."

I absolutely agree with you that some of these prophecies are crystal clear and validate biblical prophecy. At the same time I have to admit that some of these prophecies are difficult and should cause us to be careful about assigning dogmatic authority to our interpretations.

As well, there are those who disagree in good conscience, making equally good efforts at trying to determine the meanings. So as much as I'd like to propagate my views, I have to admit, I'm not always sure.

But clearly, God has put them in His Word for our benefit, and we had better pay attention! Thanks.

 

[marks]

Yes, I actually lifted this post of mine, which was somewhat watered down, from Facebook. On our forum here there is less concern about "crazy interpretations."

Unfortunate, in my estimation!

I absolutely agree with you that some of these prophecies are crystal clear and validate biblical prophecy. At the same time I have to admit that some of these prophecies are difficult and should cause us to be careful about assigning dogmatic authority to our interpretations.

My intent is to know what they say. Now, whether Ezekiel's "launchers" and "piercers" are bow and arrow, or tanks and artillary shells, I don't know, but I know what the prophet spoke.

The spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. So I ask, when does that prophecy testify? I think, when it is fulfilled. When a prophecy is fulfilled we look back to the prophet, and the Spirit of Christ Who was in them to prophesy.

I'm watching Obadiah closely right now, but I won't have factual answers until if and when it actually happens.

Where I have difficulty is with those who deny the narrative meanings of the prophecys, assigning their own meanings to the words, and changing it all around, making it nothing like God said. Or, those who just outright say, It is not going to happen after all!

As well, there are those who disagree in good conscience, making equally good efforts at trying to determine the meanings. So as much as I'd like to propagate my views, I have to admit, I'm not always sure.

But clearly, God has put them in His Word for our benefit, and we had better pay attention! Thanks.

Amen!

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Unfortunate, in my estimation!

My intent is to know what they say. Now, whether Ezekiel's "launchers" and "piercers" are bow and arrow, or tanks and artillary shells, I don't know, but I know what the prophet spoke.

The spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. So I ask, when does that prophecy testify? I think, when it is fulfilled. When a prophecy is fulfilled we look back to the prophet, and the Spirit of Christ Who was in them to prophesy.

I'm watching Obadiah closely right now, but I won't have factual answers until if and when it actually happens.

Where I have difficulty is with those who deny the narrative meanings of the prophecys, assigning their own meanings to the words, and changing it all around, making it nothing like God said. Or, those who just outright say, It is not going to happen after all!


Amen!

Much love!

Yes, I also have issues with ancient prophecies that appear to be fulfilled in modern times and yet mention outdated technology, such as bows and arrows, and horse transportation. On the other hand, the prophecies, even if they were intended to be fulfilled in the future, were given in ancient societies who had to have some sense of what they meant.

So the use of words describing their own technology makes sense, even if the basic ideas can be "transliterated" and transferred into modern concepts and technology. For example, "bows and arrows" can refer to rifles, and Horses" can refer to modern modes of transportation.

Zech 12 speaks of horses and riders being stricken with madness, so I have a little problem with cars going mad!
Zech 12.4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord.

But I do think that God knew we, in the modern world, would read these ancient prophecies and understand them in our modern context. The Islamic world truly is going crazy, and the thing driving them, ie hate for Israel, is truly a form of madness! Their directing influences are certainly a form of spiritual insanity.

It doesn't require that we understand precisely who Gog or Magog is, as long as we know the general area being spoken of and recognize that this is a confederation designed to destroy Israel. And so, Israel was always warned that antisemitism would be big in the world when Israel's existence is threatened for the last time.

And it is a warning to us, the Church, who should know that before the Kingdom comes, there are going to be setbacks and in fact a hostile Antichristian spirit overtaking this world. We've been warned! And so, ancient prophecies can be fairly clear about their message even if some of the ancient designations and outmoded technology are used to describe this.

 

[marks]

It doesn't require that we understand precisely who Gog or Magog is, as long as we know the general area being spoken of and recognize that this is a confederation designed to destroy Israel.

Exactly! And when we see foreign invaders on the mountains of Israel being destroyed by the rain of fire and brimstone from heaven, that will be it, and we'll know.

And so, Israel was always warned that antisemitism would be big in the world when Israel's existence is threatened for the last time.

Even without clear understanding of all the details, we still know what we need to know, and when they are fulfilled, we'll know the rest.

Much love!

 

[ewq1938]

I agree that the Woman is called to be Christian. A remnant of Israel is presently Christian. Israel's destiny is to be a Christian nation. "And so, all Israel will be saved." (Rom 11)

This is already a reality. Those natural branches of Israel have been pruned if they are in disbelief so they are not part of Israel. Current Israel is 100 percent composed of Christians. They live in almost every nation on Earth. The carnal nation of Israel is not the Israel that is saved.

My interpretation of the "Woman" is not "set in stone." It's a difficult prophecy for me.

She is a composite that is the mother of Christ, and future Christians beyond his ascension. Since she is active long after his literal mother died, the woman is symbolic.

 

[Marty fox]

No. The woman in Rev 12 is Christian as her children are Christian. She isn't harmed at all unlike today's Israel who was attacked and was not protected by the Earth.

If this is so how would you explain verse 17?

It clearly says that the rest of her offspring is the church not her or her other offspring.

 

[Keraz]

If this is so how would you explain verse 17?

It clearly says that the rest of her offspring is the church not her or her other offspring.

The other half of her offspring are Christians too. They will be the ones who rejected the peace treaty with the Anti-Christ and are taken to a place of safety on earth for the 1260 days of satanic world control. Also mentioned in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2.

 

[Marty fox]

The other half of her offspring are Christians too. They will be the ones who rejected the peace treaty with the Anti-Christ and are taken to a place of safety on earth for the 1260 days of satanic world control. Also mentioned in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2.

Here is the verse

17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

It clearly states the rest of her offspring are the church. It separates them for a reason one set of offspring believe in Jesus and the other set don’t.

 

[ewq1938]

If this is so how would you explain verse 17?

It clearly says that the rest of her offspring is the church not her or her other offspring.

The war is against the remnant of her seed who are Christians. This doesn't mean the woman and any other children aren't Christian. The woman is protected so no war against her, and perhaps her other children died out, leaving only this remnant alive to be targeted.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is already a reality. Those natural branches of Israel have been pruned if they are in disbelief so they are not part of Israel. Current Israel is 100 percent composed of Christians. They live in almost every nation on Earth. The carnal nation of Israel is not the Israel that is saved.

Sorry, it doesn't read that to me. It is future, and it describes what many OT prophecies indicated, that Israel will be restored nationally, just as she has so many times in the past--but this time, never more to be oppressed by pagan nations. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree?

 

[ewq1938]

Sorry, it doesn't read that to me. It is future, and it describes what many OT prophecies indicated, that Israel will be restored nationally, just as she has so many times in the past--but this time, never more to be oppressed by pagan nations. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree?

Maybe.

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

This new nation is a composite of Jews and Gentiles who are Christian. The old is not being restored. It is having the Kingdom taken from them and given to someone else.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Maybe.

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

This new nation is a composite of Jews and Gentiles who are Christian. The old is not being restored. It is having the Kingdom taken from them and given to someone else.

Jesus said the Kingdom is like something taken from the old and having added to it the new--not replacing the old.

Matt 13.52 He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the law who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”

But please allow me to be clear--we do *not* disagree that the Kingdom of God was in some sense transferred from Israel to Gentile nations. Clearly, Christianity was uprooted from the Jewish People, who largely remained in Rabbinic Judaism, and was transplanted into the Roman Empire. That is how the Roman Church began, which then expanded into all of Europe, and even into all the world over time.

Obviously, I don't believe that the Roman Catholic Church owns this entire historical development, since she branched out into many divisions. But the reality is, Christ's Gospel was no longer accepted in the majority in Israel, and ultimately was accepted by Europeans. This is how I think this verse has been fulfilled.

So the real question is, Does Christianity get planted in entire nations or in entire societies, or is the "Church" restricted only to an assembly of individuals? We've had this discussion before, and I don't seem to ever get traction with anybody on this matter. It sounds too much like "theocracy" to most in the modern world, who view theocracy as a bad word, for understandable reasons.

 

[Keraz]

Here is the verse

17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

It clearly states the rest of her offspring are the church. It separates them for a reason one set of offspring believe in Jesus and the other set don’t.

Kind of crazy that the first half of the offspring of the Woman, are taken to a place of safety for the 1250 days, if they aren't Christian, isn't it?
Think it through, Marty!

 

[Keraz]

So the real question is, Does Christianity get planted in entire nations or in entire societies, or is the "Church" restricted only to an assembly of individuals?

At present, God's people are scattered around the world. As Revelation 2 to 3 tell us; there is Overcomers for God in every type of Church. Overcomers, from every tribe, race, nation and language, ARE the true Israelites of God.
Bible Prophecy says that a time will come when those faithful peoples will gather and live in the way God always wanted, in all of the holy Land.
It will be them who Gog from Magog will attack, Ezekiel 38 to39 and Joel 2:20 says how the Lord will protect them.
It will be them who the Anti-Christ makes a 7 year treaty of peace with.
It will be them who say to Jesus as He Returns; Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.

 

[Marty fox]

Kind of crazy that the first half of the offspring of the Woman, are taken to a place of safety for the 1250 days, if they aren't Christian, isn't it?
Think it through, Marty!

I did its the protection God gave Israel before and leading upto 70AD. It was also the same time that God had Rome withdraw so that the saints could escape before the city fell.