Making the case for organized religion

[mjrhealth]

God created us to be busy! He made us to work,

No He didnt

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

All that came about because of the fall of man, we will work but it will all be pointless and achieve nothing.

And for Jesus

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

But man loves to be organized, and that is the cause of his downfall.

In all His Love

 

[marksman]

This is great, and it certainly does count as 'fellowship' and even praise. But let me ask you a question....do you want to save these things...fellowship, paise and worship, growth in the knowledge of Christ...for a chance encounter? Becuase that's what you're discribing...a chance encounter with friends. I live in a small town...500 people tops. And let me tell you, it's surprisingly hard to 'bump' into friends in general, let alone Christian friends.

I lived in a small town of 9,000 and my wife and I used to put the kids in the pram and walk down the street to do the weekly shopping on a Saturday morning. It usually took about three hours even though the walk was about 10 minutes. We spent most of the time "bumping" into friends from the fellowship.

For me...I want to know I can gather with those who love Jesus, like me, and who together, we can sing, praise, give, learn.

If you had taken a closer look at what I said before you replied you would have noticed that I said "Let me illustrate." Now what that means is an example of what I am talking about. It is NOT the be all and end all of what I was talking about. I used to teach my kids in English that giving an illustration helps to describe and emphasise what you are talking about.

I'm sorry....but really? You're against the idea of organisation?

No, and I never said I was. I said "Who needs MAN'S organisation."

How do you live your life? How do you get groceries, or pay your bills, or catch up with family or friends (other than random 'bumps' as above)?

I do all that with random bumps. I do it when I feel like it and when I need to. I don't do it for the sake of it and not every Tuesday morning at 10am. We fit those things in when it doesn't stop us from enjoying the things we like doing. We are remodeling our garden and I don't say "I can't do that today because I have to go shopping." What often happens is that I need something to do the remodeling so I say to my wife "I'll do some shopping whilst I am down the street." If we need food at any time and haven't got it, we just eat what we have got.

God created us to be busy! He made us to work, to keep active in our lives. He made us to be in community with those like us...our spiritual family. If not for 'organsitation' the amount of time we actually spent together would be almost zero.

Actually God created us to have fellowship with him and that is my priority.

And yes...I agree the Holy Spirit is at work in our lives. That what may seem as 'random' chance to us could be his working.

And that is exactly what I said.

But just as He works through us...as in, he uses us in spreading the gospel, to do his saving work, how can you be sure that he is not using 'organisation' in general, for his work as well?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. I am old enough and ugly enough to know that churches spend the whole year doing the same thing day in and day out and at the end of the year, nothing has changed. I am a student of church life and growth and there are churches growing and they are not in the west and there are churches not growing or going backward and they are in the west.

It is a case of the old saying that only an idiot does the same thing every week and expects a different outcome.

Yes, modern 'churches' have their issues, but I wonder how many people are saved attending church, as opposed to someone overhearing a random conversation? We don't know, really, do we? But, as it's clear that God uses both platforms, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss one totally, just because you have an issue with attending church.

The facts do not bear out your assumption. In the USA only 1% of churches are growing so I would say God is NOT using both platforms and I can understand why because he said "I will build MY church"....which means not ours.

If I am the church, then I cannot attend it.

 

[justaname]

This is great, and it certainly does count as 'fellowship' and even praise. But let me ask you a question....do you want to save these things...fellowship, paise and worship, growth in the knowledge of Christ...for a chance encounter? Becuase that's what you're discribing...a chance encounter with friends. I live in a small town...500 people tops. And let me tell you, it's surprisingly hard to 'bump' into friends in general, let alone Christian friends.

I lived in a small town of 9,000 and my wife and I used to put the kids in the pram and walk down the street to do the weekly shopping on a Saturday morning. It usually took about three hours even though the walk was about 10 minutes. We spent most of the time "bumping" into friends from the fellowship.

For me...I want to know I can gather with those who love Jesus, like me, and who together, we can sing, praise, give, learn.

If you had taken a closer look at what I said before you replied you would have noticed that I said "Let me illustrate." Now what that means is an example of what I am talking about. It is NOT the be all and end all of what I was talking about. I used to teach my kids in English that giving an illustration helps to describe and emphasise what you are talking about.

I'm sorry....but really? You're against the idea of organisation?

No, and I never said I was. I said "Who needs MAN'S organisation."

How do you live your life? How do you get groceries, or pay your bills, or catch up with family or friends (other than random 'bumps' as above)?

I do all that with random bumps. I do it when I feel like it and when I need to. I don't do it for the sake of it and not every Tuesday morning at 10am. We fit those things in when it doesn't stop us from enjoying the things we like doing. We are remodeling our garden and I don't say "I can't do that today because I have to go shopping." What often happens is that I need something to do the remodeling so I say to my wife "I'll do some shopping whilst I am down the street." If we need food at any time and haven't got it, we just eat what we have got.

God created us to be busy! He made us to work, to keep active in our lives. He made us to be in community with those like us...our spiritual family. If not for 'organsitation' the amount of time we actually spent together would be almost zero.

Actually God created us to have fellowship with him and that is my priority.

And yes...I agree the Holy Spirit is at work in our lives. That what may seem as 'random' chance to us could be his working.

And that is exactly what I said.

But just as He works through us...as in, he uses us in spreading the gospel, to do his saving work, how can you be sure that he is not using 'organisation' in general, for his work as well?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. I am old enough and ugly enough to know that churches spend the whole year doing the same thing day in and day out and at the end of the year, nothing has changed. I am a student of church life and growth and there are churches growing and they are not in the west and there are churches not growing or going backward and they are in the west.

It is a case of the old saying that only an idiot does the same thing every week and expects a different outcome.

Yes, modern 'churches' have their issues, but I wonder how many people are saved attending church, as opposed to someone overhearing a random conversation? We don't know, really, do we? But, as it's clear that God uses both platforms, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss one totally, just because you have an issue with attending church.

The facts do not bear out your assumption. In the USA only 1% of churches are growing so I would say God is NOT using both platforms and I can understand why because he said "I will build MY church"....which means not ours.

If I am the church, then I cannot attend it.

If one person gets saved from attending a church, then God is using that platform. Percentages and or numbers can be skewed to say just about anything.

 

[marksman]

If one person gets saved from attending a church, then God is using that platform. Percentages and or numbers can be skewed to say just about anything.

I don't find in scripture that God or Jesus told us to go and save one person. His last command was to go into ALL THE WORLD, not all the church and make disciples which most churches don't but that is another story so don't get me started on that one.

And I have a feeling your comment about saving one is a bit like skewing numbers to prove a point.

 

[FHII]

Jesus said he would leave all the sheep to save one.

 

[Rach1370]

No He didnt

I'm referring to these verses:

The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. (Genesis 2:15, ESV)

His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ (Matthew 25:23, ESV)

Before the fall, when everything was 'good', God set Adam in the garden to work and tend it. And in the parable of the Parable of the Talents Jesus gives us a glimpse of when things will again be without sin...God will give us responsibilities to upkeep...indeed, it's a reward!
My point was that God did not intend for man to sit around with harps playing being hand fed grapes by cherubs.


Marksman said:

I lived in a small town of 9,000 and my wife and I used to put the kids in the pram and walk down the street to do the weekly shopping on a Saturday morning. It usually took about three hours even though the walk was about 10 minutes. We spent most of the time "bumping" into friends from the fellowship.

If you had taken a closer look at what I said before you replied you would have noticed that I said "Let me illustrate." Now what that means is an example of what I am talking about. It is NOT the be all and end all of what I was talking about. I used to teach my kids in English that giving an illustration helps to describe and emphasise what you are talking about.

No, and I never said I was. I said "Who needs MAN'S organisation."

I do all that with random bumps. I do it when I feel like it and when I need to. I don't do it for the sake of it and not every Tuesday morning at 10am. We fit those things in when it doesn't stop us from enjoying the things we like doing. We are remodeling our garden and I don't say "I can't do that today because I have to go shopping." What often happens is that I need something to do the remodeling so I say to my wife "I'll do some shopping whilst I am down the street." If we need food at any time and haven't got it, we just eat what we have got.

Actually God created us to have fellowship with him and that is my priority.

And that is exactly what I said.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. I am old enough and ugly enough to know that churches spend the whole year doing the same thing day in and day out and at the end of the year, nothing has changed. I am a student of church life and growth and there are churches growing and they are not in the west and there are churches not growing or going backward and they are in the west.

It is a case of the old saying that only an idiot does the same thing every week and expects a different outcome.

The facts do not bear out your assumption. In the USA only 1% of churches are growing so I would say God is NOT using both platforms and I can understand why because he said "I will build MY church"....which means not ours.

If I am the church, then I cannot attend it.

There is much I disagree with in your post...foremost the tone of narkiness.
I also find it a bit confusing that you are so against 'organisation' in a church setting that you claim to hate organisation in general, not really realising that whenever you 'plan to pick up that extra item when you go down the street', you are, in fact, orgainising. Thus, whether you want to or not, you too are an organiser at heart...so dismissing any and all organisation that is by or from MAN, rather than God's alone, is pointless, and also dismisses one of the gifts God has given us.

Lastly, as Justaname pointed out...if God choses to use Church to save peoples souls, who are you to question, dismiss or ridicule it? Numbers don't matter, although your saying: "I will build MY Church" brings up an interesting point. Churches don't make believers, and 'random fellowship' does not make believers...the Holy Spirit makes believers, and he will save who he chooses, through whichever platform he choses.
You also said: "His last command was to go into ALL THE WORLD". Which tickled me just a bit. Do you, in your random strolling fellowship, pop overseas every now and again to spread the word? How do you think missionaries come to be over there, spreading the gospel all over the world? It's through organisation...through Church support and often through Church funding.

Lastly....I would think that even if you choose against regular fellowship in a church setting, that there is enough evidence of it within the NT for you to allow it cannot be wrong. Witness Paul. That man went all over the middle east and Europe preaching the gospel. But not just that...creating groups...Churches. We can know thats what they were, because we see them gathering together. Not just for worship and growth together, but in support of Paul and his mission. They sent support and gifts. Paul thanks them for it. Which leads to another support for NT churches....who do you think Paul wrote all his letters to? If they were to different people they would be called 'Pauls letter to bob', rather than 'Pauls letter to the Galatians'. Even as we read his letters today, so too they gathered eargerly together to read what he had written to them.

Avoid Church if you must, but do not think you have a biblical case for dismissing it. You do not.

 

[marksman]

Avoid Church if you must, but do not think you have a biblical case for dismissing it. You do not.

Thankyou for your opinions. Duly noted.

 

[Dodo_David]

If "organized religion" is so bad, then why did the Apostle Paul appoint elders to govern each congregation that he established?
Why does Paul, in his letters, talk about the offices of overseer and deacon?

Organization was built into local Christian congregations from the very beginning.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

If "organized religion" is so bad, then why did the Apostle Paul appoint elders to govern each congregation that he established?
Why does Paul, in his letters, talk about the offices of overseer and deacon?

Organization was built into local Christian congregations from the very beginning.

It should be expected that Jesus left order, not anarchy when he ascended. But this still isn't clear to some.

 

[mjrhealth]

Avoid Church if you must, but do not think you have a biblical case for dismissing it. You do not.

Rev_18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Jesus left order,

No, Jesus left us teh Holy Spirirt and said He would build His church, but man in all his wisdom thought he could build the Lords church for Him, a counterfit the enemy is good at that, and so many people willing to foolow, the blind following the blind, and where is the Holy Spirit, replaced by mens doctrines and religious disorder. Mens church will fall it is not from God.

In all His Love

 

[justaname]

Rev_18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

No, Jesus left us teh Holy Spirirt and said He would build His church, but man in all his wisdom thought he could build the Lords church for Him, a counterfit the enemy is good at that, and so many people willing to foolow, the blind following the blind, and where is the Holy Spirit, replaced by mens doctrines and religious disorder. Mens church will fall it is not from God.

In all His Love

So now you are making the case that the Church is Babylon as per the Revelation reference? From where do you base your thesis?


Here is a verse for all you who are against organized religion and organization within the Church.

Hebrews 10:24-25
[SIZE=.75em]24 [/SIZE]And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
[SIZE=.75em]25 [/SIZE]Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

[Rach1370]

Rev_18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Um, I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. Are you saying the bible speaks against the idea of 'church' because of what it says in Rev 18:4?
Because I do not agree with that. There is no evidence to suggest that "Babylon", which the verse is talking about, is the Church....or, I suppose, the gathering together of the Church, which is what we are talking about.

 

[mjrhealth]

Gathering.

whos church. Do you think that becuase people are in church they are a part of His church, are you so blind, or is it you choose not to see, The blind leading teh blind, and tey will all fall into a ditch.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

One can gather and not be in church, but men choose to build churches, monuments to heaven. trying to please God and there they gather like sheep to the slaughter.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

But you dont know because you choose not to.

Jer_50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

And so many are not His shepherds, but who cares they tell you what you want to hear and please the flesh, itchy ears all to your own destrutcion, your choice, not His.


In all His Love

 

[Rach1370]

Gathering.

whos church. Do you think that becuase people are in church they are a part of His church, are you so blind, or is it you choose not to see, The blind leading teh blind, and tey will all fall into a ditch.

One can gather and not be in church, but men choose to build churches, monuments to heaven. trying to please God and there they gather like sheep to the slaughter.


And so many are not His shepherds, but who cares they tell you what you want to hear and please the flesh, itchy ears all to your own destrutcion, your choice, not His.


In all His Love

Did I say everyone who comes to church is of the Church?? No...don't remember ever saying that. Just as you didn't ever say that everyone walking around the countryside claiming to be 'christian' is saved.

Church buildings are not there to 'please' God...they are there so his children can come together to worship him and learn more about him...without getting wet. And when I refer to 'churches' I couldn't care less if the building is a school, hall, shearing shed or someone's back room. It's wherever his people come together to praise, worship, pray and study scripture.

 

[mjrhealth]

Joh_6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh_6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh_6:48 I am that bread of life.
Joh_6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
Joh 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Was that to know about God, or know God we all have Christ if we desire Him, we all are given the Holy Spirit if we receive Him we can all go to Christ and learn of Him if we choose, no man can teach you Christ, they can only tell you about Him, how many times do you need to be told, before you go to Him.

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.

I can learn who He is becuase He can teach us, all that without mans church and without getting wet, and if getting wet is what i need to do, that so shall it be.

In all His Love

 

[lforrest]

Rev_18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Here is some more context:
"1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

[SIZE=.75em]2 [/SIZE]And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

[SIZE=.75em]3 [/SIZE]For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

[SIZE=.75em]4 [/SIZE]And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."


So if the church is Babylon the great whom we are supposed to come out of wouldn't verse 3 also apply. But looking at the world it is becoming more secular, and is becoming more distant from the christian Church. It seems the opposite of verse 3 is happening, meaning the Church can not be Babylon.

 

[Rach1370]

Joh_6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh_6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh_6:48 I am that bread of life.
Joh_6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
Joh 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Was that to know about God, or know God we all have Christ if we desire Him, we all are given the Holy Spirit if we receive Him we can all go to Christ and learn of Him if we choose, no man can teach you Christ, they can only tell you about Him, how many times do you need to be told, before you go to Him.

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.

I can learn who He is becuase He can teach us, all that without mans church and without getting wet, and if getting wet is what i need to do, that so shall it be.

In all His Love

You do realise that your post makes no sense, right? The only reference in it that relates to the topic at hand, is the small paragraph at the end, and even that is just a vague comment based on your apparent aversion, rather than any real biblical content about believers coming together.

 

[mjrhealth]

Of course it doesnt, why should it, why should the things of God make sense to man,

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Ther is te hLords , Ecclesia"His Called out ones, My sheep Hear My voice, and there is teh Harlot Churh, whic is built by man, trying to replicae our Lords church, a copy but not the ture church, its of this world and will fail because it is not from God, it belongs to the world miust find its place in the world., As it says,

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

And so shall it always be, everything God does man will try to imitate, but will ultimately fail, still you wont go to Christ so that you can have life.

In all His Love

 

[Rach1370]

Of course it doesnt, why should it, why should the things of God make sense to man,

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Ther is te hLords , Ecclesia"His Called out ones, My sheep Hear My voice, and there is teh Harlot Churh, whic is built by man, trying to replicae our Lords church, a copy but not the ture church, its of this world and will fail because it is not from God, it belongs to the world miust find its place in the world., As it says,

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

And so shall it always be, everything God does man will try to imitate, but will ultimately fail, still you wont go to Christ so that you can have life.

In all His Love

Wait..wait. Your argument here is that I can't possibly understand what you've written...your point...because the ways of God cannot be understood by men? With the possible exception of you apparently.

That is, hands down, the weirdest, most illogical rebuttle, that I have ever come across.

Firstly, I just love how you intimate that I "won't go to Christ"...like you know me or my relationship with Jesus.
Secondly, if God did not intend for us to understand scripture...to devour and take in, then why do you suppose he gave it to us?
Or are you some what presumptuously and arrogantly suggesting that only you may understand and interpret the bible?

 

[mjrhealth]

Or are you some what presumptuously and arrogantly suggesting that only you may understand and interpret the bible?

Far from it, God didnt give us the bible, God gave us Jesus, Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit who only speaks things He is given to speak, and He was given to lead us into all the truth. There will be no 10 bible questions before entering in to heaven, God didnt ask us to know the bible He asked that we 'know" His son.

In simple terms,

what can church give you that God, Jesus and teh Holy Spirit cannot,

it cant give you life, that is in Christ alone,
It cant save you, salvation is in Christ alone,
it cant make you "know" Jesus it can only tell you "about" Him,
it can ony offer its version of the truth, its doctrines its traditions, to know the truth one must go to Christ, as the bible says,

1Jn_5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Joh_4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

In all His Love