Making the case for organized religion

[This Vale Of Tears]

Far from it, God didnt give us the bible, God gave us Jesus, Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit who only speaks things He is given to speak, and He was given to lead us into all the truth. There will be no 10 bible questions before entering in to heaven, God didnt ask us to know the bible He asked that we 'know" His son.

In simple terms,

what can church give you that God, Jesus and teh Holy Spirit cannot,

it cant give you life, that is in Christ alone,
It cant save you, salvation is in Christ alone,
it cant make you "know" Jesus it can only tell you "about" Him,
it can ony offer its version of the truth, its doctrines its traditions, to know the truth one must go to Christ, as the bible says,

1Jn_5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Joh_4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

In all His Love

High praises for the profound wisdom in this post!

If the Bible were essential for salvation, then I guess the first 4 centuries of Christians are lost. Certainly scriptures were a part of the Christian life even before the official canon, but never did early Christians believe that scriptures were sufficient. You're right that Jesus is the word of God, as emphasized in chapter one of John's gospel and the authority Jesus left behind was a living, breathing Church, not a Bible.

It's interesting to challenge Bible-only advocates to defend Bible only using only the Bible. Because not only does the Bible not claim for itself the status, prestige, and authority that BO advocates claim, but continually points to the true source of authority, Jesus Christ and the Church he commissioned with that authority as described here:

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power (authority) has been given to me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


But here is where your argument is made succinctly:

John 5:39
You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,

which goes to what you are saying, that the scriptures point to Christ, but it's Christ who is the source of our salvation.

 

[Rach1370]

Far from it, God didnt give us the bible, God gave us Jesus, Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit who only speaks things He is given to speak, and He was given to lead us into all the truth. There will be no 10 bible questions before entering in to heaven, God didnt ask us to know the bible He asked that we 'know" His son.

In simple terms,

what can church give you that God, Jesus and teh Holy Spirit cannot,

it cant give you life, that is in Christ alone,
It cant save you, salvation is in Christ alone,
it cant make you "know" Jesus it can only tell you "about" Him,
it can ony offer its version of the truth, its doctrines its traditions, to know the truth one must go to Christ, as the bible says,

In all His Love

Oh...so you're just saying that the Spirit only tells you how to interpret that which is not important anyway...that which you keep quoting.

Yup...still not making sense.

 

[Dodo_David]

In his epistles, the Apostle Paul gives instructions about the qualifications for overseers and for deacons. So, Christian congregations were organized by the Apostles themselves.

 

[FHII]

High praises for the profound wisdom in this post!

If the Bible were essential for salvation, then I guess the first 4 centuries of Christians are lost. Certainly scriptures were a part of the Christian life even before the official canon, but never did early Christians believe that scriptures were sufficient. You're right that Jesus is the word of God, as emphasized in chapter one of John's gospel and the authority Jesus left behind was a living, breathing Church, not a Bible.

One of their leaders said, "We know in part, we prophesy in part. When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away with." Another one of their leaders told us to be established in the present truth. They're my leaders too, of course.

See, the first quote is from Paul, the second is from Peter. And their followers learned these words from their letters that make up our present day Bible. While they (speaking of their followers and to an extent, the leaders as well) had better 1st hand experience, we have it a little better. We have all the ordained letters of Paul (ordained by God for us to have), Peter, John, Jude, Luke, etc.... What do you think Paul could've done if he had a copy of the Bible? I believe so much more.

In his epistles, the Apostle Paul gives instructions about the qualifications for overseers and for deacons. So, Christian congregations were organized by the Apostles themselves.

I'm not sure, but I think they appointed the elders too. Don't see how it's not possible as folks like Paul and Peter WERE the "most elderest" of the Church in a human sense.

In simple terms,

what can church give you that God, Jesus and teh Holy Spirit cannot,

it cant give you life, that is in Christ alone,

He passed that job onto the ministry. (John 21:16)

It cant save you, salvation is in Christ alone,

He chose the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe and said you can't be saved without a preacher (1 Cor 1:21, Rom 10:14)

it cant make you "know" Jesus it can only tell you "about" Him,

Where two or three are gathered in his name, he's there (Matt 18:20)

it can ony offer its version of the truth, its doctrines its traditions, to know the truth one must go to Christ, as the bible says,

As always, it's funny when people who attack the Bible end up trying to use the Bible.... I'm not totally against what you said because I don't think you are totally throwing off on the Bible (although it sure does seem like it). But I'll give you a verse.... The Bereans didn't ask the Holy Spirit (and I don't recall him actually speaking at all to anyone), they searched the scripture! (Acts 17:11)

I have remarks in blue above.... Let me cap it off. I kind of agree because the Bible is the road map and not the road. It is the Words of God and his testament. The Bible IS the Word and the Bible says the Word is God. But the Word must be heard and obeyed (settle down, Evangelist7.....)

Here's the problem... On this website alone I've heard from more people that have spoken to God directly and have been told what to say by the Holy Ghost than there were Apostles in the first century! All of them with different messages and revelations! But the Bible hasn't changed. Yes, there are new revisions and new versions. I use the KJV (not starting another "version war) and I own both the 1611 and a modern edition and sure, they are a bit different.

But here's my point.... It's a whole lot more reliable than a discussion board full of modern day prophets, evangelists, apostles and folks who "God's given personal revelations to"....

By the way.... I disagree that God didn't give us the Bible. That's a lie. God gave to Moses words and experience and that Holy man of old gave us the first 3 1/2 to 4 chapters of the Bible.... I don't know how he did it, but God somehow managed to let it survive in a pretty hostile part of a pretty hostile world for 5-6 thousand years!

Is that not of God's doing?

 

[Dodo_David]

Here's the problem... On this website alone I've heard from more people that have spoken to God directly and have been told what to say by the Holy Ghost than there were Apostles in the first century! All of them with different messages and revelations! But the Bible hasn't changed. Yes, there are new revisions and new versions. I use the KJV (not starting another "version war) and I own both the 1611 and a modern edition and sure, they are a bit different.

But here's my point.... It's a whole lot more reliable than a discussion board full of modern day prophets, evangelists, apostles and folks who "God's given personal revelations to"....

Agreed!

* * *

Side Note: God gave us the Holy Scriptures written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Koiné Greek.
People gave us the English translations of the Holy Scriptures. ^_^

 

[mjrhealth]

It's interesting to challenge Bible-only advocates to defend Bible only using only the Bible. Because not only does the Bible not claim for itself the status,

Interesting isnt it, how one can speak to a non believer about the things of God without mentioning the bible, but christans wont even listen to you if you dont quote it. again it seems the Holy Spirirt has being relegated like Christ Aand God to a lower status than mens religion.

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

and He will

in all His love

 

[FHII]

Interesting isnt it, how one can speak to a non believer about the things of God without mentioning the bible, but christans wont even listen to you if you dont quote it. again it seems the Holy Spirirt has being relegated like Christ Aand God to a lower status than mens religion.

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

and He will

in all His love

Well sure it is.... Cause they don't know anything. It's pretty easy to tell someone everything YOU like about God and everything YOU think they should know about God. Even better, you can tell them everything THEY want to hear. Pretty good conversation and YOU get to be the smart one!

But when you talk to a Christian whose read the Bible, they'll notice truth when they hear it and lies when they hear it.

 

[mjrhealth]

you can tell them everything THEY want to hear.

Funny Jesus said the same about the religious.

2Ti_4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti_4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Again, how men will search and learn but never come into the truth,


2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God created man in His image, today God walks with men, but so few walk with Him for they prefer the company of men.

In all His Love

 

[Rach1370]

I'm sorry, but I just can't take anything you say seriously anymore. Because we quote scripture, it means that Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit has taken back seat to our 'religious organisation'????

Let me assure you....there is nothing....NOTHING, in my life that means more to mean than Christ...and my relationship with him. I love my bible because it gives a heavenly context to the personal relationship I have with God...but my bible is not my god.

I find it really rather distressing when people decide to face someones disagreement with blanket statements of "how they are not saved"....how "they cling to mans church rather than God"...how "they need sooo much to seek out the spirit and be saved, because clearly they are not saved"....and how "too much bible quoting shows a disregard for God".

Just because I disagree with you, does NOT put you in a place to be able to judge my state of heart. To do that, you would have to know me well, or be God. As you are neither, all I can do with your statements, is understand them to be a knee jerk reaction to the simple fact I disagree with you...and really, that sort of behaviour does not speak well for your ability to rationally discuss issues purely from a biblical standpoint.

And yes....yes I said "biblical"....because if we're not here to discuss God's written opinion on topics, then it just decends into a game of "the spirit told me this, so I'm right and you're wrong".....oh wait....it appears we're already there. Sure glad you decided to leave the bible out of this.....

 

[FHII]

I hear ya Rach!

 

[mjrhealth]

I find it really rather distressing when people decide to face someones disagreement with blanket statements of "how they are not saved"....how "they cling to mans church rather than God"...how "they need sooo much to seek out the spirit and be saved, because clearly they are not saved"....and how "too much bible quoting shows a disregard for God".

where did anyone say you are not saved??
And as far as bible goes its a two way thing.

 

[marksman]

Here is a verse for all you who are against organized religion and organization within the Church.

Hebrews 10:24-25
[SIZE=.75em]24 [/SIZE]And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
[SIZE=.75em]25 [/SIZE]Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Sorry but that verse does not support your argument for the following reasons.

One, the NTC met in homes so there is no concept of meeting in a religious building called a church.

Two. In the Greek, the assembling together that is referred to is in homes so if you are not meeting in homes, you are forsaking the assembling of yourself together.

Apart from the fact that you should never build a doctrine out of one verse of scripture which is what usually happens if you haven't studied the scriptures about a topic.

 

[justaname]

Sorry but that verse does not support your argument for the following reasons.

One, the NTC met in homes so there is no concept of meeting in a religious building called a church.

Two. In the Greek, the assembling together that is referred to is in homes so if you are not meeting in homes, you are forsaking the assembling of yourself together.

Apart from the fact that you should never build a doctrine out of one verse of scripture which is what usually happens if you haven't studied the scriptures about a topic.

It seems you are adhering to the letter of the Law and not the Spirit. It is the concept that should be followed.

 

[FHII]

It amazes me the length people will go to to get out of having to obey a verse, especially when it comes to going to Church.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

The topic was about Organized Churches. To me that means Denominational, and that means to put an end to any discussions about scripture, because the Denomination has a doctrine that has been written that implies their church is the only one who is right when it comes to understanding scripture. Since I don't yet find anyone with all truth, a non-denominational or home church where one may share ideas is the proper way to go.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

The topic was about Organized Churches. To me that means Denominational, and that means to put an end to any discussions about scripture, because the Denomination has a doctrine that has been written that implies their church is the only one who is right when it comes to understanding scripture. Since I don't yet find anyone with all truth, a non-denominational or home church where one may share ideas is the proper way to go.

The value of denominations should not be underestimated, especially those who exercise precise control over the schools of doctrine that are taught in their churches. They should be viewed as walls and gates that keep the wolves out. Without clarity on what a denomination teaches and believes, their is vulnerability to false doctrines, deceptive teachers, and cults. I furthermore disagree that a denomination needs have "all truth" in order to be of value. Denominations need doctrines for the same reasons nations need borders, so that one can discern what is and isn't part of them.

And it further needs to be pointed out, in harmony with the OP, that single independent churches don't open hospitals in Vietnam, or schools in Africa, or smuggle Bibles into China and North Korea. Advancing the kingdom of God is the domain of team players, those who enjoin their efforts with those of others and pool resources to achieve a common goal.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

The value of denominations should not be underestimated, especially those who exercise precise control over the schools of doctrine that are taught in their churches. They should be viewed as walls and gates that keep the wolves out. Without clarity on what a denomination teaches and believes, their is vulnerability to false doctrines, deceptive teachers, and cults. I furthermore disagree that a denomination needs have "all truth" in order to be of value. Denominations need doctrines for the same reasons nations need borders, so that one can discern what is and isn't part of them.

And it further needs to be pointed out, in harmony with the OP, that single independent churches don't open hospitals in Vietnam, or schools in Africa, or smuggle Bibles into China and North Korea. Advancing the kingdom of God is the domain of team players, those who enjoin their efforts with those of others and pool resources to achieve a common goal.

You report good works of denominations. When God called me I was already 46 years old. I realized from the start that I was just a baby in Christ and needed to learn a lot. At first there was a lot of good bible teachings, but later it only came from the pulpit. When my son asked be a question about a bible subject that had not been taught in our church, I had to go to the internet to research. Luckily, I found a good one that used lots of scripture to show and give understanding. It was also the first time I had ever heard of
hermeneutics. What a difference that made in my life, things I never could understand, became clear.

It appears to me, that my church, and most others, want to keep their congretation as babies and never give them food to grow on. It is a way for them to keep control.

 

[marksman]

It seems you are adhering to the letter of the Law and not the Spirit. It is the concept that should be followed.

And the concept is meeting in homes so why aren't you following it?

It appears to me, that my church, and most others, want to keep their congretation as babies and never give them food to grow on. It is a way for them to keep control.

Yes, yes and yes. In my church watch, I have noticed that there are churches doing the same thing ten years later with no appreciable growth in numbers or spiritual depth.

And it further needs to be pointed out, in harmony with the OP, that single independent churches don't open hospitals in Vietnam, or schools in Africa, or smuggle Bibles into China and North Korea. Advancing the kingdom of God is the domain of team players, those who enjoin their efforts with those of others and pool resources to achieve a common goal.

And there are denominational churches who do the same so what is your point?

have you heard of C.T.Studd or George Verwer, or African Action, or, or, or, all of whom have started missions without the help of any denominations.

 

[mjrhealth]

The value of denominations should not be underestimated, e

Yes it keeps the enemy happy so many christians divided by there religion, but they are happy so is satan.

In all His Love

 

[Rach1370]

where did anyone say you are not saved??

Oh let me count the ways!!

whos church. Do you think that becuase people are in church they are a part of His church, are you so blind, or is it you choose not to see, The blind leading teh blind, and tey will all fall into a ditch.

Translation: "just because you're attending a church doesn't mean you belong to THE Church"......if a person does not belong to THE Church, we are not children of God..therefore we are not saved.

One can gather and not be in church, but men choose to build churches, monuments to heaven. trying to please God and there they gather like sheep to the slaughter.

Translation: "If you attend a church you are trying to build your way into heaven, but in reality your digging your way into a grave"....clearly that means that the people attending a church do not have eternal life....equals they are not saved.

And so many are not His shepherds, but who cares they tell you what you want to hear and please the flesh, itchy ears all to your own destrutcion, your choice, not His.

Translation: "If you attend a church you are listening only to man and his desires and you are thereby choosing to follow your own flesh into the grave"....which means you are not saved.

Was that to know about God, or know God we all have Christ if we desire Him, we all are given the Holy Spirit if we receive Him we can all go to Christ and learn of Him if we choose, no man can teach you Christ, they can only tell you about Him, how many times do you need to be told, before you go to Him.

Last sentence translation: "you have not gone to Christ"....therefore I am not saved.

And so shall it always be, everything God does man will try to imitate, but will ultimately fail, still you wont go to Christ so that you can have life.

Translation: "by attending a church I am refusing to 'go to Christ that I can have life"....which clearly means I am not saved.

Again, how men will search and learn but never come into the truth,

Translation: "You are seeking in vain but will never come to the truth"....meaning I am not saved.

Yes it keeps the enemy happy so many christians divided by there religion, but they are happy so is satan.

Translation: "we are running too and froe for the enemy rather than God"....which clearly means we have a master who is not Jesus...which means we are not saved.


Conclusion:....You use the word "Christian" often when speaking of us....but clearly you do not think we are saved...your words and ideas paint a clearer picture than you could possibly imagine.

And as far as bible goes its a two way thing.

And we're back to not making sense again....please elaborate....