Making the case for organized religion

[justaname]

And the concept is meeting in homes so why aren't you following it?


Yes, yes and yes. In my church watch, I have noticed that there are churches doing the same thing ten years later with no appreciable growth in numbers or spiritual depth.


And there are denominational churches who do the same so what is your point?

have you heard of C.T.Studd or George Verwer, or African Action, or, or, or, all of whom have started missions without the help of any denominations.

Who says I don't? And who is to say where we meet, the meeting house is just the building. Just as the alter is nothing it is the elements presented on it, so the meeting place is nothing it is the subject we meet for. Why should you protest anyone meeting in the name of Christ, no matter where they meet?

 

[mjrhealth]

Joh_5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So why do you feel so condemned ??

And as far as bible goes its a two way thing.

And we're back to not making sense again....please elaborate....

Funny how one christan will use the bible to prove they are right and anoher will use the verya same bible to prove they are worng.

Untied in division, not possible

In all his Love

 

[Rach1370]

Joh_5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So why do you feel so condemned ??

I don't feel condemned. My point was simply that you are all but saying outright that those who disagree with you...or those who 'attend church'...are, in your opinion, not saved.
If you truly think the people who you are addressing, are Christians...and then go on to say the things you have....then you are contradicting yourself.

Funny how one christan will use the bible to prove they are right and anoher will use the verya same bible to prove they are worng.

Untied in division, not possible

In all his Love

I agree that this is a huge problem. Anyone can 'make' the bible back up his claims...it's all a matter of opinion and 'interpretation'. But I usually find that those who are just bending the bible to suit their purposes don't have a well thought out and thorough argument. They don't have numerous other bible passages that support their claim....that sort of thing.
As a rule, I keep my 'interpreting' simple....it can't contradict other scripture, and it must glorify God. If how I'm reading something doesn't ultimately bring him praise and glory....then I pray, and go back over it again. I do the same in regards to any teaching I may be listening to....
This is one of the reasons I think you are wrong in regards to attending church, with my Church....if you follow me. My current Pastor is a godly man and he studies and considers scripture carefully before preaching it. Considering the fact that the Apostle Paul champions 'churches', and that my Pastor preaches God's word, and that the other people in Church are there to share in the praising and worshipping of God.....how on earth can that be wrong?? Biblically, it isn't.

 

[marksman]

Who says I don't? And who is to say where we meet, the meeting house is just the building. Just as the alter is nothing it is the elements presented on it, so the meeting place is nothing it is the subject we meet for. Why should you protest anyone meeting in the name of Christ, no matter where they meet?

This comment means that we can do whatever we like, how we like, with whomever we like as long as we are meeting in the "name of Christ" so let me ask you, there are churches in my country and probably yours who are meeting in the "name of Christ" who are led by a practicing homosexual or lesbian. That means that according to your interpretation that is OK.

And then their are churches that meet in the "name of Christ" whose minister does not believe in the virgin birth, the resurrection of Jesus and that he was the son of God but according to your interpretation that is OK.

And then there are churches that meet in the "name of Christ" who are led by men who believe that you have to attend mass to get brownie points towards your salvation, but according to your interpretation that is OK.

I have a feeling that you haven't thought through things in your eagerness to defend non biblical religion.

This is one of the reasons I think you are wrong in regards to attending church, with my Church....if you follow me. My current Pastor is a godly man and he studies and considers scripture carefully before preaching it. Considering the fact that the Apostle Paul champions 'churches', and that my Pastor preaches God's word, and that the other people in Church are there to share in the praising and worshipping of God.....how on earth can that be wrong?? Biblically, it isn't.

Sorry Rach, it is wrong biblically if you care to study the whole of the New Testament to see how it operated. I spent two years doing this and what I learned is not what is being done or taught in "churches" today. As an addendum, I consulted over 40 other authors on the subject and they all came to the same conclusion.

Please let me stress, NOWHERE and I mean NOWHERE in the New Testament Church do you find a "pastor" preaching God's word and the rest just singing.

What it does say is when you come together "EVERYONE HAS..." NOT "The pastor has..."

And once again, you CANNOT attend church if you are the church.

As a rule, I keep my 'interpreting' simple....it can't contradict other scripture, and it must glorify God. If how I'm reading something doesn't ultimately bring him praise and glory....then I pray, and go back over it again. I do the same in regards to any teaching I may be listening to....This is one of the reasons I think you are wrong in regards to attending church,

Contradicting other scripture is one thing, but before that what happens is that it contradicts scripture full stop so there is "no other scripture" to worry about i.e. you won't find anywhere in the NT authority for priests who dress up and stand behind altars and go through rituals invented by the church.

And yet there are plenty who defend such an idea as it "brings glory to God."

As for your claim that you pray and go back over it again, I don't think so. You obviously have a particular mindset that is wed to modern day religion and what really happens is that you weigh up scripture in the light of what happens in your church and it gets reinterpreted to fit into your existing theology.

The most common example is the passages in Timothy and Titus that talks about Elders and Deacons qualifications which in most cases is reinterpreted to mean the role of a pastor which it doesn't.

Don't worry as most people do this so you are not alone.

 

[justaname]

This comment means that we can do whatever we like, how we like, with whomever we like as long as we are meeting in the "name of Christ" so let me ask you, there are churches in my country and probably yours who are meeting in the "name of Christ" who are led by a practicing homosexual or lesbian. That means that according to your interpretation that is OK.

And then their are churches that meet in the "name of Christ" whose minister does not believe in the virgin birth, the resurrection of Jesus and that he was the son of God but according to your interpretation that is OK.

And then there are churches that meet in the "name of Christ" who are led by men who believe that you have to attend mass to get brownie points towards your salvation, but according to your interpretation that is OK.

I have a feeling that you haven't thought through things in your eagerness to defend non biblical religion.


Sorry Rach, it is wrong biblically if you care to study the whole of the New Testament to see how it operated. I spent two years doing this and what I learned is not what is being done or taught in "churches" today. As an addendum, I consulted over 40 other authors on the subject and they all came to the same conclusion.

Please let me stress, NOWHERE and I mean NOWHERE in the New Testament Church do you find a "pastor" preaching God's word and the rest just singing.

What it does say is when you come together "EVERYONE HAS..." NOT "The pastor has..."

And once again, you CANNOT attend church if you are the church.


Contradicting other scripture is one thing, but before that what happens is that it contradicts scripture full stop so there is "no other scripture" to worry about i.e. you won't find anywhere in the NT authority for priests who dress up and stand behind altars and go through rituals invented by the church.

And yet there are plenty who defend such an idea as it "brings glory to God."

As for your claim that you pray and go back over it again, I don't think so. You obviously have a particular mindset that is wed to modern day religion and what really happens is that you weigh up scripture in the light of what happens in your church and it gets reinterpreted to fit into your existing theology.

The most common example is the passages in Timothy and Titus that talks about Elders and Deacons qualifications which in most cases is reinterpreted to mean the role of a pastor which it doesn't.

Don't worry as most people do this so you are not alone.

It seems you are making the case we need organization to insure we meet in the right places, practicing the right things, in the right ways, with the right people then. You undermine your own position.

In the case of religion...
James 1:27
27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

In defense of your assumptions with my statement.

Mark 9:40-42
40 “For he who is not against us is for us.
41 “For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.
42 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.

Now if those who are teaching, teach that which causes to stumble, Jesus' words are clear.
This said, if I attend a place where teachings of the Christ are what I would consider heretical, my position would be voiced in a respectful manner. These are not for us rather they are against us, for their teachings contradict what we know to be true. Again you reinforce the case that the Church would better be served if proper organization were in place to protect the flock from wolves, or in other words proper teaching was enforced.

To speak a bit on the subject of organization, look throughout all of creation and you will see it. If you look to the heavens you see an organized galaxy and an organized solar system. Looking to the hunting practices of a lion's pride we see organization. Looking to the bee hive, there is direct order. What makes you believe God would not want order and organization within His Church. A united organized Church is not only healthier, it is also more effective. It is satan that desires division in the Church because it is easier to attack.

In nature it is when the sheep gets separated from the flock and the shepherd when it is most vulnerable.

 

[Rach1370]

Sorry Rach, it is wrong biblically if you care to study the whole of the New Testament to see how it operated. I spent two years doing this and what I learned is not what is being done or taught in "churches" today. As an addendum, I consulted over 40 other authors on the subject and they all came to the same conclusion.

Well, If you're that learned on the subject, please comment on the following. Allowing that when I say "church" (small 'c') I am talking of a gathering of THE Church (capital 'C'). If "church" is not biblical, then:

• Why does Paul write to churches, rather than individual people?
• Why does Paul refer to himself and others as 'Preacher and teacher' if some were not called to preach and teach? (1 Tim 2:7, Eph 4:11)
• Why does Paul spend time explaining the 'qualifications' of an 'overseer'...also known as a Bishop or Supervisor (it really matters not what you call it...the dude up the front taking on the responibilities of shepherd). And if Paul is not explaining the position of 'Pastor', then why does he say: "for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? (1 Tim 3:5)"
• Why does Paul then go on to describe the qualifications for 'deacons'....surely there would be no need for either Pastor or decons if it were unbiblical to gather together as believers?
• Why does Paul address specific letters: "To the churches of Galatia: (Galatians 1:2)" and "Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God ... (2 Thessalonians 1:4)" if not for the fact that different 'gatherings' of believers in different cities are legitmately called 'churches'?
• Why does the author of Hebrews refer directly to singing together as a legitmate form of praise: "For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying,
  “I will tell of your name to my brothers;
  in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.” (Hebrews 2:11-12)"
• Why does Jesus address his letters in Revelations, to different "churches" if not for biblical reasons to have 'churches'. If it were not biblical to have these different gathers of believers, it would be addressed to 'THE Church', there would be one letter, and that would be that.

On and on it goes. There is many references to 'the church' as a whole...God's church. And clearly here it is talking about all Christians...all children of God. But it also talks about seperate churches....different gathering of believers in different cities...and the strengths and weaknesses of the people gathered there.
It especially talks about the heirarchy of leadership within these different gatherings.
I'm not really sure if your objection comes from calling it 'attending church' of if you objection comes from the idea of gathering together as Christians.

How about this....lay out biblical proof that we should not gather together.

Please let me stress, NOWHERE and I mean NOWHERE in the New Testament Church do you find a "pastor" preaching God's word and the rest just singing.

Did I say that we 'just sung'? I didn't think I had to spell out what we did at a church service...or a service for THE Church, if that makes it seem better to you. Let me eloborate.....
Jesus told us that the 'Sabbath' was made for man. We are to take a day each week in which to break from our normal activites. We choose to do this on Sunday...we take this time to meditate on God, his word, work and movement in our life and lives of others. We gather together with brothers and sisters in fellowship, enjoying each other and talking to them about God, and just our lives in general...how we were challenged throughout the week, how we struggled to be a godly mum when little Johnny was shreiking in the back seat for an hour straight. Fellowship.
We also open God's word (not that we don't do that on other days as well!), read from it, and then...yes...listen to the 'Pastor' (or overseer if you like) 'teaches and preaches' from God's word. This grows our knowledge of God, and in turn, increases our love towards him. We then...yes...sing...a response to our love for God...an acknowldegment that he is WORTHY of praise and glory.

Again...if the bible had no intention of having an 'overseer' or preachers or teachers (Eph 4:11), then why the need to tell us how to pick them!?

Again, perhaps it would be better if you provided biblical evidence that says we shouldn't attend services, that we shouldn't have an 'overseer'?

What it does say is when you come together "EVERYONE HAS..." NOT "The pastor has..."

And once again, you CANNOT attend church if you are the church.

See above....clearly the bible differentiates....so can we....Yes, we are all THE Church....but the world over, there are many small gathering of Christians. As it was back then, so it is now. We do not all live in the one address.....not yet, anyway!!

Contradicting other scripture is one thing, but before that what happens is that it contradicts scripture full stop so there is "no other scripture" to worry about i.e. you won't find anywhere in the NT authority for priests who dress up and stand behind altars and go through rituals invented by the church.

And yet there are plenty who defend such an idea as it "brings glory to God."

I've never advocated the ritual or pomp. I don't think it's necessary. I think pastors and their families need to be paid well enough to be full time workers for God's calling, but apart from that....I can't quite see Jesus or Paul wearing satin and demanding everyone dip and kiss their ring.
We gather together to learn and fellowship because we love Jesus....full stop.

And when I was talking about 'contradicting scriptures'....I don't actually believe that scripture ever contradicts itself....that was my point. If I read something that seems to be a condradiction, then I know I need to go back and read it again with an open heart and with prayer.

As for your claim that you pray and go back over it again, I don't think so. You obviously have a particular mindset that is wed to modern day religion and what really happens is that you weigh up scripture in the light of what happens in your church and it gets reinterpreted to fit into your existing theology.

I find it both funny and insulting that you think you can make claims about what I do or do not...do.
Let me educate you, then perhaps you will have some knowledge to back up your presumptions.

I found years ago to never 'assume' my interpretation of scripture was correct. In fact, I have changed my mind...or perhaps it is more accurate to say it has been changed for me...on numerous issues that I was brought up to just accept.

Also....having a chronic illness and having a child with autism who struggles with being in a room with lots of people and loud noises....it would actually be nice to be able to "readjust" my understanding on attending church. The reason I do not do so, is because I don't follow what I feel is convenient at the expense of what is right. Not only does the bible support coming together in fellowship and worship, I can recognise the very great benefit that is recieved from doing both these things....fellowshipping with my family in Christ, and praising my glorious God.

The most common example is the passages in Timothy and Titus that talks about Elders and Deacons qualifications which in most cases is reinterpreted to mean the role of a pastor which it doesn't.

Don't worry as most people do this so you are not alone.

No....actually I wasn't referring to when they talked of 'Elders and Deacons', although yes, that in intself if proof that 'organisation' of a gathering is biblical.
I was talking of the specifications for 'Overseer'.....singular.

The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil. (1 Timothy 3:1-7, ESV)

This is clearly talking about a shepherd...a teacher, a leader, a preacher. The fact that Paul then follows it with what Deacons and Elders should be like...I'm sorry, but any argument against that of 'organisation' within a group setting, is lacking a certain punch.

If you wish me to consider otherwise, you will need to prove biblically that my take must be wrong. There must be biblical proof against gathering together as a church.

 

[mjrhealth]

..or those who 'attend church'...are, in your opinion, not saved.

Never once did anyone say that, you say you are saved and than give us a whole post saying you dont believe you are, salvation was never brought into qestion, Jesus offeres us a better way, the new wine, what is it you desire.

In all His love

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

You report good works of denominations. When God called me I was already 46 years old. I realized from the start that I was just a baby in Christ and needed to learn a lot. At first there was a lot of good bible teachings, but later it only came from the pulpit. When my son asked be a question about a bible subject that had not been taught in our church, I had to go to the internet to research. Luckily, I found a good one that used lots of scripture to show and give understanding. It was also the first time I had ever heard of
hermeneutics. What a difference that made in my life, things I never could understand, became clear.

It appears to me, that my church, and most others, want to keep their congretation as babies and never give them food to grow on. It is a way for them to keep control.

If I understand what you're saying, you believe that the church you attend is responsible for your spiritual growth. I know when I phrase it that way, it already seems to lack merit on its face.

When I was in the Army, one of our PT (physical training) instructors told us that regular battery PT sessions could only maintain fitness, not increase it. On muscle-strength days, we did variations of pushups, situps, grass drills, and other strength building exercises. On the off days we ran, typically about 4 to 5 miles. And all of this was considered maintenance so we could pass the PT test every 6 months. But if we really wanted to improve our fitness, we hit the gym, hiked in the woods, or did other personal fitness activities.

I've found that spiritual growth happens quite the same way. Going to church every Sunday is just not enough. Private devotions, prayer time, reading the Scriptures, attending Bible studies, and getting books that exposited specific books in the Bible or schools of thought in eschatology, etc. The church, like any institution, cannot possibly meet the demands you place on it because it is comprised of members who are varied in their maturity, intelligence, and ability to grasp greater abstracts. All a church can do is cover the basics, and any expectation beyond that is just unreasonable. Though I love to go to church, the depth of knowledge and piety I've gained over the years were done outside of weekly services.

And I think you know all this. I think you know that if the pastor mentions "hermeneutics" in a sermon, more than half the congregation won't have a clue what he's talking about. The pastor of my parish offers classes during the week that he teaches himself so that we can specialize our knowledge in certain areas. Understanding Revelations was the last class I attended. I marveled that even though our congregation was 5000 served by 4 Masses, only about 30 would show up to these special classes. The hunger you describe, which I believe you possess, to go from milk to solid meat is not common, sad to say. Few are really pressing in to attain higher peaks in their walk with the Lord. But those few who seek, and you sound like a seeker, will not fail to get their reward.

 

[Rach1370]

Never once did anyone say that, you say you are saved and than give us a whole post saying you dont believe you are, salvation was never brought into qestion, Jesus offeres us a better way, the new wine, what is it you desire.

In all His love

Oh for goodness sake.
Clearly the words you are speaking do not make sense to me, and the words I am speaking do not make sense to you.
Therefore, there is zero point continuing this...
Cheers.

 

[mjrhealth]

and the words I am speaking do not make sense to you.

Oh your words make perfect sense, its religion and that is what it does.

In all his love

 

[FHII]

I've found that spiritual growth happens quite the same way. Going to church every Sunday is just not enough. Private devotions, prayer time, reading the Scriptures, attending Bible studies, and getting books that exposited specific books in the Bible or schools of thought in eschatology, etc. The church, like any institution, cannot possibly meet the demands you place on it because it is comprised of members who are varied in their maturity, intelligence, and ability to grasp greater abstracts. All a church can do is cover the basics, and any expectation beyond that is just unreasonable. Though I love to go to church, the depth of knowledge and piety I've gained over the years were done outside of weekly services.

Vale,

That simply is not true 100% of the time. The Church I attend does a lot of trememdous teaching every week and even the most learned Bible student would be hard pressed to say they didn't learn something new at my Church. However, I do get your point and agree with it. Even my Pastor has said similar things and encourages us to read, study and meditate on our own. In fact, he tends to run the teachings like a Master's program where he expects us to know the basics so he can get to the deeper meanings of the Bible.

Spiritual growth happens not only in Church, but during the week between services. Even what you learn in Church has to be reinforced so that it sticks with you and is deeply embedded in your mind and in your heart. If that was your point, once again, I agree with you.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Spiritual growth happens not only in Church, but during the week between services. Even what you learn in Church has to be reinforced so that it sticks with you and is deeply embedded in your mind and in your heart. If that was your point, once again, I agree with you.

Hermeneutics - the study of the principles of interpretation concerning the books of the Bible.
Without first understanding hermeneutics, one will never be able to understand the bible as it is intended for us to do. We shouldn’t have to go to Bible College to get taught the basics of how to study God’s word. Most people, as Vale pointed out, sadly do not care to have more than what they already have. My point is, that either the churches, pastors and teachers, have never studied hermeneutics or do not wish for the congregation to gain enough knowledge for them to become a mature Christian or they would offer the class.
It should be offered in every church, regardless of how few would take the class, and these hungry souls should be singled out to be the future teachers and leaders in the church. Study and meditation will bring plenty to the table, but in conjunction with that, knowing God’s word will also create a closer walk with him.
If you haven’t had the opportunity to take a class in hermeneutics, read up on it at any number of web sites. One doesn’t have to be the brightest bulb in the lamp to learn. Knowing God directly from his word is a blessing. Love him from your heart, know him better by knowledge, thereby loving him even more.
Be blessed.

 

[FHII]

Hermeneutics - the study of the principles of interpretation concerning the books of the Bible.
Without first understanding hermeneutics, one will never be able to understand the bible as it is intended for us to do. We shouldn’t have to go to Bible College to get taught the basics of how to study God’s word. Most people, as Vale pointed out, sadly do not care to have more than what they already have. My point is, that either the churches, pastors and teachers, have never studied hermeneutics or do not wish for the congregation to gain enough knowledge for them to become a mature Christian or they would offer the class.
It should be offered in every church, regardless of how few would take the class, and these hungry souls should be singled out to be the future teachers and leaders in the church. Study and meditation will bring plenty to the table, but in conjunction with that, knowing God’s word will also create a closer walk with him.
If you haven’t had the opportunity to take a class in hermeneutics, read up on it at any number of web sites. One doesn’t have to be the brightest bulb in the lamp to learn. Knowing God directly from his word is a blessing. Love him from your heart, know him better by knowledge, thereby loving him even more.
Be blessed.

Yea well, Rocky.... Attach a fancy name to it, but what I'm saying is that it IS happening in my Church! We ARE studying the principles and interpretation of the Bible. I'm not going to Liberty University or ORU, but I am in class and I am learning hermueanotics or whatever you want to call it.

People want to say Peter and John were "ignorant and unlearned men". They get that from the Bible, but what the don't realize is that is what the pharasees (or Jews.... I forget) said. These men studied under Jesus for 3 1/2 years! Ignorant? Unlearned? Hardly! So no, I don't have to take a class in Harmonics Heuamonics or whatever.... I'm under a Pastor that knows how to teach and is instructing me. If you don't have a Pastor like that, then YOU take a class in Hermorphics or whatever...

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Yea well, Rocky.... Attach a fancy name to it, but what I'm saying is that it IS happening in my Church! We ARE studying the principles and interpretation of the Bible. I'm not going to Liberty University or ORU, but I am in class and I am learning hermueanotics or whatever you want to call it.

People want to say Peter and John were "ignorant and unlearned men". They get that from the Bible, but what the don't realize is that is what the pharasees (or Jews.... I forget) said. These men studied under Jesus for 3 1/2 years! Ignorant? Unlearned? Hardly! So no, I don't have to take a class in Harmonics Heuamonics or whatever.... I'm under a Pastor that knows how to teach and is instructing me. If you don't have a Pastor like that, then YOU take a class in Hermorphics or whatever...

Good for you FHll

My guess is that you are in the 1 in 1000 churches that do this. As I said, you should be, if not already, be put into a leadership role in your church.

Be blessed

 

[FHII]

Thanks Rocky!

 

[Rach1370]

Oh your words make perfect sense, its religion and that is what it does.

In all his love

And yet, by saying what you just did, you just proved to me that you don't have a clue what I'm saying or where I'm coming from.
Religion....pfffst! Religion sucks..... And I couldn't be more divorced from it....

 

[mjrhealth]

For you Rach to clear up this "church" thing, than before you get mad at me, look it up for yourself, or do something unheard of, ask Jesus, He will never lie to you.

Church

Was never a building with pastors and priests, that was the old wine, now we have the new wine, face to face with God,

In all His Love

 

[Selene]

For you Rach to clear up this "church" thing, than before you get mad at me, look it up for yourself, or do something unheard of, ask Jesus, He will never lie to you.

Church

Was never a building with pastors and priests, that was the old wine, now we have the new wine, face to face with God,

In all His Love

Which Christian denomination actually thinks the Church is a building? As for the pastors and priests, they are also part of the Church. They're members of the body of Christ. Priests existed in the New Testament. The Church is the body of Christ......in other words, people. It never had anything to do with a building.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Which Christian denomination actually thinks the Church is a building? As for the pastors and priests, they are also part of the Church. They're members of the body of Christ. Priests existed in the New Testament. The Church is the body of Christ......in other words, people. It never had anything to do with a building.

"The church is not a building" is one of the many lectures ignorant fundamentalists inveigh to Catholics in opposition to myths about what Catholics believe. It goes with a long list that also includes, "Mary didn't die for my sins" and "I can confess my sins directly to God." The smug arrogance of these statements evokes emotions ranging from laughter, to sadness, to pity. But strawman arguments are indicative of more than just ignorance. They betray an unwillingness to understand what others believe to preserve an "us vs them" feud in perpetuity.

 

[FHII]

"The church is not a building" is one of the many lectures ignorant fundamentalists inveigh to Catholics in opposition to myths about what Catholics believe. It goes with a long list that also includes, "Mary didn't die for my sins" and "I can confess my sins directly to God." The smug arrogance of these statements evokes emotions ranging from laughter, to sadness, to pity. But strawman arguments are indicative of more than just ignorance. They betray an unwillingness to understand what others believe to preserve an "us vs them" feud in perpetuity.

I am treading on dangerous ground, and I realize that. The problem Vale, is that you are not the only Catholic that exists. I like you, and I believe you have a sound mind. However, those three myths as you call them exist and folks like me have to combat them with Bible. Vale, there are Catholics out there that believe that....

In other words, when someone says, "The church is not a building", for a long time, the Catholic Church was preaching it was and there are still folks that believe that.

When someone complains that "Mary didn't die for my sins" and yet millions are praying the rosary and saying "Hail Mary!" 15 times then throwing in 1-3 "Praise Jesus!" Well.... Our doubt is justified!

And I believe in confession to God and believe in repenting. It doesn't have to be before a Priest. It can be, but doesn't have to. IT is a matter of private prayer.

So don't talk to me about a smug attitude from a Catholic point of view. I'm not a protestant, I am a Child of God and if I offend the Catholic Teaching, so be it! You know.... You guys killed alot of folks in the name of religion! That can be forgiven, but can't be erased. Smug attitude? Give me a break!

So, have what I said is wrong? Look it up in history... I speak the truth! You want to impress me? Then speak in the name of Jesus Christ and not as a Catholic!