Mark Of The Beast

[teleiosis]

The ‘Mark of the Beast’ has certain overtones to a similar sign in the Old Testament with the reference to head and hands, but there is an important aspect in the original language that distinguishes the two. In Deuteronomy it relates to thoughts and actions as they pertain to a person’s relationship with God, while the latter in Revelation shows it is much more material in its application dealing with external relationships with man in a very worldly sense.

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DT 6:8[/sup] Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.

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The point in Deuteronomy is that this would be a sign. Concentrating on hands and head at this junction confuses the function between the two. The operative word between Revelation and Deuteronomy is the action in each. In Deuteronomy, what the NIV calls symbols and the NASB calls a sign comes from the word, ‘ot and is best described in the Greek as semeion, according to the Word Book of the Old Testament (page 39).

As a sign it appears as an outward expression, like the signs in the sky. It can also be a token expression. It can mean a sign of something that is greater than itself like the rainbow is the sign of the covenant.

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First used in the second century B.C., Hasmonean Jews literally applied this by wearing phylacteries, the little box of God’s word on their forehead or arm. It marked them as different just as circumcision did. Circumcision itself was an outward sign that God controlled the most intimate aspect of a man’s being, his sexuality. But being circumcised does not necessitate any person follow God, it is only a sign.

Just as the Hasmoneans didn’t get the gist of what God meant, taking a sign literally; the overriding part of the passage in Deuteronomy cited as a corollary to Revelation is not the head and hands, but the aspect of practical instruction on how we are to love God. Focusing on the most literal aspect they elevated the symbology and made that the measure of how good they were and they forgot the greater aspects of God, and that is love. Jesus, the prophets, David and other Jews in the Book of Life kept God in their thoughts (head), and their actions (hands) followed.

[sup]

Rev 13:16[/sup] He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, [sup]17[/sup] so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

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In Revelation, the mark is not a sign as it is in the symbolic sense as ‘ot is in the Hebrew. The Greek has it as charagma, an impression, as a mark or a stamp according to the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. And it is received as in to give, from didomi. While certain authors comment on how this is not to be taken literally, that goes against the plain nature of the words here in a chapter meant to reveal. While the impression is symbolic of the worship given the beast with a fatal wound, it misses the context that John puts this impression in: it relates wholly to economics.

The symbology of this mark is truly demonic, just as is the false prophet too. It is relevant that God dismisses those that receive this impression as not being in the Book of Life. The relationship Christians are to keep is with God, and He is to guide thoughts and actions. But discounting this as a physical impression means it has to do so doubly because it is tied to a physical activity, buying and selling. Furthermore, the warning in the Bible is explicitly clear. Thus, rather than being speculative, this warning concerns a real concern that has just not yet been realized.

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Rev 14:11b[/sup] There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." [sup]12[/sup] This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

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This is the second call for patient endurance in this parallel account. The first was during the first half of the seventieth ‘seven.’ This is also the third instance of hupomeno including standing firm in Luke 21:19 which also relates to the midweek point. Here it falls on the other side of the midweek as presented in the parallel account containing all of the seventieth ‘seven:’ Revelation chapters 13 through 16. Specifically, it falls right after the three angels call out their messages and just before the Son of Man comes on the cloud. This warning takes the Christian right up to the moment of their deliverance. Christians must remain faithful until the end.

 

[veteran]

The last half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" IS tribulation timing. It is specifically the 1260 days when God sends His two wtinesses to Jerusalem to prophesy against the beast (Rev.11).

It is specifically the "time, and times, and the dividing of time" (3.5 years) when the little horn is given to wear out the saints (Dan.7:25). That means the saints WILL STILL BE ON EARTH during that latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week".

So the "midpoint" rapture you're preaching is actually a PRE-TRIBULATIONAL RAPTURE, and is NOT written in God's Word! And no great swelling of words will make that "midpoint" rapture idea fit Holy Writ.


Matt 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

 

[teleiosis]

The last half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" IS tribulation timing. It is specifically the 1260 days when God sends His two wtinesses to Jerusalem to prophesy against the beast (Rev.11).

The seven and sixty-two 'sevens' were literal. Likewise, when Gabriel informed Daniel of the one 'seven,' I am looking for a literal time. It is not symbolic, but in fulfillment of OT Law.

The detail Gabriel gives Daniel about the one 'seven' gives us several "facts" which must be incorporated into any sound eschatology:

1. The one 'seven' starts with the 'ruler who will come' (being the subject of the third person verb conjugation as the last person mentioned) prevailing a covenant with many.
2. The one 'seven' has a midpoint. In Revelation, only its respective halves are addressed.
3. That midpoint comes "on wing" which I take in the figurative aspect for an attribute of a wing. The King James does the same, but picks the protective nature with "overshadowing." Knowing the King of the North comes "like a flood" which is quickly, I take the speed aspect of a wing and say: "quickly."
4. The midpoint includes an abomination, shown in the Hebrew of Daniel 9:27 in the plural, which can show how great something is, or it may be replicated.
5. The end of the one 'seven' has desolations poured out on the desolator, which I think is the anti-Christ. As God's Wrath is always directed at beings and not conditions, I take the noun form of desolate and use desolator instead of desolation. Most translations take mesomen and put it in pronoun form.

The explanation Gabriel gives Daniel does not allow us to sequence the arrival of the Two Witnesses. Placing them in either half is an illogical leap, however, with further study, I think a case can be built that shows the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11:1-13 is one-two as in respect to the halves of the one 'seven.'

It is specifically the "time, and times, and the dividing of time" (3.5 years) when the little horn is given to wear out the saints (Dan.7:25). That means the saints WILL STILL BE ON EARTH during that latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week".

Again, I think you're jumping the gun here logically. Daniel 9:27 does not establish when the Saints will be worn out as you put it.

The sequence-of-events included in the vision, inquiry, and explanation of Daniel chapter 7 gives us three parallel looks at the end-times to include past the one 'seven.'

The third account, the explanation, has this sequence-of-events included in it:

• v.23 Rise of fourth Beast of a Nation. It will (future tense) devour the whole world (The King of the North is triumphant over the South and East at Armageddon)
• v.24 Little horn "hamstrings" three "Kings. (Notice the ten Kings come from this Kingdom, they don't have their own Kingdoms.)
• v.25 Oppress the Saints for half of the one 'seven. (Notice that we are also "handed over." This is exactly what Jesus said would happen in the Olivet Discourse.)
• v.26a Court (of God) will seat <LI>v.26b Little horn's power destroyed
• v.27 Set up of Millennium Kingdom ruled by the Saints

All we can say of Daniel 7:25 is that this time precedes the time when the Court (of God which we see in Revelation chapters 4 & 5) is seated. While you can use this to support a "last day" Rapture which happens on the last day of the one 'seven,' it also easily fits into other scenarios. This is not the final word, but as a sequence-of-events it does give us more information about the end-times.

When I look at Daniel chapter 7, I can distill this combined sequence-of-events from the three versions of the same prophetic vision which make up the chapter:

• Rise of fourth Beast of a Nation with ten Kings (Council of Ministers)
• Little horn "hamstrings" three "Kings" to rise to power over the Beast of a Nation
• He wages war and oppress the Saints for half of the one 'seven.'
• Court of God is seated; books opened (Rev 4-8:1)
• Little horn's power destroyed (and it is a process as the Trumpets and Bowl Judgments show us)
• Beast of a Nation destroyed (at Armageddon)
• Beast of a Man thrown into Hell (after the one 'seven.')
• First three beasts allowed to live a while (30/45 day periods)
• Establishment of Millennium reign of Christ
• Saints rule the earth

I would point to the linear account of the one 'seven' which I think starts in Revelation chapter 13 to help sequence when we are handed over:

Revelation 13-16:

• 13:1 The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
• 13:5 Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
  • 13:7 He wages war against the Saints.
  • 13:10 We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15)
  13:11/13 Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
• 13:14 Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination
• 13:15-17 Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever for the Church in terms of persecution.
• 14:1 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
• 14:6 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
• 14:13 Martyr's deeds will be remembered (Two Witnesses left behind).
• 14:14-16 Harvest from the clouds.
• 14:17 Avenging Angel - Blood for the Winepress of God's Wrath.
• 15 - the last desolations: the third Woe revealed.
• 16:2 First Bowl - Sores on Man
• 16:3 Second Bowl - All sea to blood
• 16:4 Third Bowl - All water to blood
• 16:8 Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
• 16:10 Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
• 16:12 Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
• 16:17-21 Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake.

In this linear narrative, the war against the Saints happens before the midpoint abomination of the revealed talking image of the anti-Christ.
- Think of the one 'seven' with its respective halves as being the 'rise and fall' of the anti-Christ.
- In the first half, he is unopposed.
- In the second half, God is at work bringing him down. God's Wrath starts out slow, with two snow flakes as it were: the Two Witnesses. The anti-Christ cannot wage war against them, in fact, I will put it to you that he will retreat before them and attempt to isolate them. However, God's Wrath will start out in thirds and then become total and His Wrath will ultimately lead to the anti-Christ's capture after his victory over the assembled armies of the South and East in a winner-take-all climax of man's rule. His victory is Pyrrhic however.

So the "midpoint" rapture you're preaching is actually a PRE-TRIBULATIONAL RAPTURE, and is NOT written in God's Word! And no great swelling of words will make that "midpoint" rapture idea fit Holy Writ.

Not at all.

I teach, like you, that we are taken up after the Great Tribulation. As such, it is not a midpoint Rapture, or Mid-Trib as some like to term Pre-Wrath. I preserve what Jesus said about the Day of the Lord when He comes again - that no one can know the Day. So one thing I do know is that it is NOT the last day of the one 'seven!'

The sequence-of-events in Mt 24:15-31 goes like this:

• v. 15 (midpoint) abomination
• v. 21 Great Tribulation (- which is shortened v.22)
• v. 29 Sun/moon/star event.
• v. 30 Sign of the Son of Man
• v. 31 Gathering Elect from the clouds

Jesus gives us several specific and unique events with which to compare and integrate with other linear narratives.

1. The abomination
2. The (shortened) Great Tribulation
3. The sun/moon/star event
4. The gathering from the clouds.

Three of these are present in the linear narrative of Revelation chapters 13-16:

• The abomination of Mt 24:15 with the talking image of Rev 13:14.
• The Great Tribulation of Mt 24:21 has its basis for us in the two laws of Rev 3:15-17
• The gathering from the clouds of Mt 24:31 matches the Harvest of Rev 14:14-16.

Notice in each account, the sequence these three specific and unique events unfolds is preserved.

Furthermore, we can time the third specific and unique event of the Olivet Discourse, the sun/moon/star event, which is omitted in this particular vision, to the overall chronology of the end-times presented in the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4 through 11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) with the sixth Seal.

Thus we can tie the first Trumpet of God's Wrath to the avenging Angel of Rev 14:17.
The Day of the Lord is when we are rescued, and afterward, God's Wrath is trampled out, first on unrepentant Israel, and then the nations around her.

Mark

 

[bud02]

The seven and sixty-two 'sevens' were literal. Likewise, when Gabriel informed Daniel of the one 'seven,' I am looking for a literal time. It is not symbolic, but in fulfillment of OT Law.

The detail Gabriel gives Daniel about the one 'seven' gives us several "facts" which must be incorporated into any sound eschatology:


Mark

The details before the displacement theory between the 69 and 70 week is your first mistake.

1 Gabriel said 70 weeks are determined for you and your people.....period

2 Danial 9:27 says nothing about a rebuilt temple, 7 year tribulation, or anti-christ.

3 There is no example in scripture of a stated time period starting and stopping. 70 years in captivity, 40 years in the wilderness, 40 days Jesus was tempted, 400 years in Egypt.
All adds up to 70 consecutive weeks. No gap is seen between the first 7 and the next 62 so why the gap in the last week?

4 The focus of the Prophesy is Messiah, not anti-christ. Gabriel is the messenger of the Messiah in both the old and new testaments.
After Messiah is cut of, "the cross" it says; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and sanctuary. Titus 70 AD.

5 He shall confirm a covenant. The word covenant is always Messianic, it's always applied to Messiah. The king james does not just say covenant but "THE" covenant.
Gal 3:17; Romans 15:8; Jesus said this is My blood of THE new covenant Mathew 26:28

6 Mark 1:9 the starting of the 70 week, Jesus is baptized, this is my Son. Mark 1:15 Jesus said, The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand. The time of the 69 week was fulfilled and now begins the 70th week. Just as Gabriel said now will be fulfilled.
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifices and oblation to cease. After exactly 3.5 years of holy ministry Jesus died on the cross. The veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom Mathew 27:51 the temple is of no value, desolate just as Jesus said in Mathew 23:39 See your house is left to you desolate. For the over spreading of abominations Mathew 24:15....

The evidence indicates that 9:27 was fulfilled by Jesus. It's over whelming. these 8 words, confirm........covenant........many.....midst......sacrifice....cease.......abominations....desolate ....all describe Jesus in perfect fulfillment of this verse.

Can you show me the gap between the 69 and 70 week? Can you point out the temple? or the anti-Christ making a or THE covenant?
When Jesus answered Peter about forgiving his brother in Mathew 18:22 Jesus said "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Is there a gap between the 69 and 70? No. He said 7 x 70

I do like reading your research simply because to go to great, effort to search the scriptures that reference the same events, with very careful reading.
Why not do the same for Danial 9:27. Is it perhaps that without the AC the 3rd temple and the 7 unfulfilled years of the 70th week. All your work comes tumbling down into a heap.

The week ended when Stephen was stoned, I see the Son of man "Jesus" STANDING> soon after Peters vision and the calling of Saul "Paul" to take the message to the gentiles.

 

[teleiosis]

1. Seventy 'sevens' are determined for Daniel's people and the Holy City; get it right.

2. I listed what Daniel 9:27 does and I didn't include any of your criticisms, so where's the beef?

3. There are gaps in prophecy. There's a two thousand year gap in Isaiah 61:2. The gap in prophecy can be found in the detail included in what happens after the sixty-two 'sevens.'
Three things happen between the sixty-two 'sevens' and the one 'seven.'

1. The messiah is cut off; this is the shedding of blood which "cuts" a deal in the Hebrew. This is not like gabar which means "prevail" (not confirm).
2. The city and the sanctuary would be destroyed: this happened nearly 40 years after Jesus' death and resurrection. The point of this prophecy is to indicate from whom the final ruler who is like Antiochus IV Epiphanes from some of Daniel's other prophetic end-time accounts will arise.
3. Wars continue, and they have continued right up until today.

The fact that these three events are listed between the sixty-two 'sevens' and the one 'seven' shows the gap which exists until such time as the one 'seven' begins. This is the Church Age that Hosea 6:2 sets at two thousand years.

Verse 26 is actually a broad overview. It doesn't actually mention the one 'seven.' Gabriel, after mentioning the end which will happen, then backs up in parallel fashion, and fills in the details of the one 'seven' which I listed in the post above yours. I did not misstate the facts, but you misrepresented what I posted.

4. The focus of prophecy can allow for other parts. The book of Daniel is about the nations relationship to God and that God is God over the Kings. However, Daniel spends a lot of time talking about future kings. While Jesus is the only one who can do all six actions in Daniel 9:24, verse 27 is not about Jesus. Jesus never prevailed over a limited covenant for just seven years.

5. gabar means prevail, be mighty, have strength, be great. While gabar is translated as confirm (which is a variation of be firm) the Hebrew word does not denote the same kind of action as the positive connotation of “confirm” conveys in English. gabar only means to be firm as an adjective. As a verb its meaning is to prevail, not make firm.

"In Arabic, the basic meaning of the root is "to rise, raise, restore," with the idea of being strong, or prevailing over coming only in the derived stems. That the Hebrew may share a similar range of meaning is seen in the Hithpael where the idea is not so much to make oneself prevail over God, as it is to raise oneself up in arrogance and stand in his face (Job 15:25, 36:9; Isa 42:13). The Hebrew root is commonly associated with warfare and has to do with the strength and vitality of the successful warrior." - Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament p. 148; Harris, Archer and Waltke; Moody Press; 1980.

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gabar in Daniel 9:27 is in the Hiphil stem showing a causative action. He causes the covenant to be made firm through (military) strength and the perfect tense conjugation indicates a simple, completed action. Saying this covenant is forced through or prevails would be more fitting of the type of action gabar denotes than the “nice” connotation modern readers get with the Old English translation of ‘confirm.’

6. Jesus did not "prevail" a covenant at the start of His Ministry. The only time Jesus announces the New Covenant is with His Crucifixion at the Last Supper. Jesus did not "prevail" upon the cross, but gave up His Life as a ransom for many. He was "cut off" which is karat which is the word we read as ‘cut off’ in Daniel 9:26 can be used as it is in Genesis 15:18 to cut or make a covenant. This fact is because of the slaughter of animals was a part of the covenant ritual -Speiser, Genesis, in AB, p. 112; BA 34:18 - Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament p. 457.

7. There is no date given for Stephen's stoning. None of the desolations God decreed in Daniel 9:26 are evident in the first century. Stephen's stoning does not fulfill Daniel 9:27. It does not mark the end of the one 'seven.'

Mark

 

[bud02]

The coming of the Messiah was at the end of the 69th week. Until Messiah the Prince there shall be 7 weeks and 62 weeks.
like I said read the reference in Mark . We also know in Mathew, Mark and John they all attest to Jesus "Messiah" and the confession of John the baptist. It was at this time He became "officially" the anointed one.
Mark 1:15 Jesus said, The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand. Just what TIME is Jesus referring to? If not the start of the 70 week.

Jesus did not "prevail" a covenant at the start of His Ministry. The only time Jesus announces the New Covenant is with His Crucifixion at the Last Supper. Jesus did not "prevail" upon the cross, but gave up His Life as a ransom for many. He was "cut off" which is karat which is the word we read as ‘cut off’ in Daniel 9:26 can be used as it is in Genesis 15:18 to cut or make a covenant.

I never said that Jesus confirmed a covenant at the beginning of his ministry.
In the midst of the last week 3.5 years after He was baptized and received the Holy Spirit, became the Messiah, the anointed one He was cut off but not for himself. He said to the Disciples this is the blood of the new covenant. If He didn't prevail then why was the veil of the temple torn and why are we even having this conversion. The new covenant brought all of this to completion.
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

There is no date given for Stephen's stoning. None of the desolations God decreed in Daniel 9:26 are evident in the first century. Stephen's stoning does not fulfill Daniel 9:27. It does not mark the end of the one 'seven.'

Now we know that Jesus was seated at the right hand of the Father but Stephen sees Him standing, I would understand this to be another mark of a change in time.

Seventy 'sevens' are determined for Daniel's people and the Holy City; get it right.

If you want to get technical about the language show me covenant used to describe anything but Messiah or the Father any where else in the bible.
Next look at what Gabriel says; 70 weeks are determined for you and your people. hathak, khaw-thak cut off to decree, to determine. Is there a gap in that? He then tell us what will happen threw out this CUT OFF PIECE OF TIME.

Now you see the time of the Jews was to be fulfilled in this 70 week span. The OLD COVENANT ENDED. This new covenant was presented to the Jews alone for 3.5 years after Jesus shed His blood. Some accepted it most didn't. That ended this prophesy the 70 weeks. It does not void the fact that in the end "the day of the Lord" that God will not call His lost sheep home. Nor does it change the fact that all Jews and Israel must call on the name of Jesus. So the whole temple thing will just be another abomination to the Lord If it were rebuilt. It would deny Jesus AGAIN.
It only pertains to the 70 week period. It's been fulfilled its over. 70 weeks are, khaw-thak; cut out for you and your people, mission accomplished. The scepter of Judea delivered. Truly salvation has come from Judah

 

[teleiosis]

The coming of the Messiah was at the end of the 69th week. Until Messiah the Prince there shall be 7 weeks and 62 weeks.

Well first of all, Mark 1:15 doesn't quite say what you're trying to say it says. The verb there is pleroo, and it means to fill, or to complete. Jesus does not say this fulfills Daniel 9:26, nor does it happen at His Baptism, but only later does He proclaim that with His ministry: Israel has "God with them," or Immanuel.

I think you're being rather narrow-minded about how complex prophecy can be. Jesus' Ministry fulfills prophecy: Isaiah 61:2's year of the Lord's favor: which is where Jesus stopped reading in Luke 4:19 and which He proclaims fulfilled in 4:21. What is being fulfilled is that men will be taught by God - John 6:45.

The three verses of Daniel 9:25-27 are important to any eschatology and as an invaluable support to the sequence-of-events model; several issues of exegesis require examination. The issue addressed here concerns the coming of the Messiah.

DA 9:25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven `sevens,' and sixty-two `sevens.'

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The seven and the sixty-two ‘sevens’ describe the first part of the timeline. The start is revealed as the issuing of the decree to restore Jerusalem. Unfortunately this extremely important date is not totally clear. There are then three instances which Jesus could be said to have arrived:

• The first is his birth which the Magi observed.
• The second instance would be the start of Jesus’ Ministry.
• The third would be the Triumphal Entry which Jesus stressed as important:

Lk 19:40 "I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

​

• The first possibility might be found in the first decree of Cyrus the Great.
• The second possible date may be in the seventh year of Artaxerxes I around 457 B.C. This would put the coming of the Messiah as his baptism in A.D. 27 counting in straight solar years and would conform to Jesus being crucified around A.D. 31.
• The third possibility might be the commission of King Artaxerxes to Nehemiah in 446 B.C. The third seems too recent because that would push the coming of the Messiah to A.D. 38. However, if one counts in prophetic years (360 days per year as is used in Revelation) then the coming of the Messiah happens in early A.D. 31 which would coincide with Jesus' arrival on Palm Sunday.

So the problem is two-fold, finding the actual start date and then correctly calculating the years.

So far, none of the methods yields a date close to Christ’s birth, however, some Jewish and Christian scholars have set a terminus a quo, or beginning point in the reign of Cyrus which align with the Savior’s birth. (Know Therefore and Understand: A Biblical Explication of the First 69 Weeks of Daniel 9, by T. T. Schlegel.) The interesting fact that the Magi had determined His birth leaves one to wonder if they hadn’t used some method to arrive at Christ’s birth between 6 and 4 B.C. (Herod the Great, who ordered the infants in Bethlehem killed, has had his death corrected to having died in 4 B.C. which then necessitates that Jesus be born before A.D. 1 as initially set by Dionysius Exiguus.) One could allow that the Magi may have had some other prophecies of Daniel in Babylon that might explain their arrival being timed correctly. They may have used an additional celestial test such as conjunctions of Jupiter and Saturn or eclipses of the moon, and Jupiter. Several such astrological signs occurred in this time period, but which one may have been interpreted as determining the Savior’s birth is not known. Despite how they came to determine Jesus’ birth, however, the sign they followed was in the heavens (sky) and the Gospel accounts testify that they did arrive.

While the fixing of dates is important in understanding the literal nature of prophecy’s fulfillment, however, from a sequence of events standpoint: any of the end dates rendered by the three possible starting points or which ever counting method is employed brings the timeline of Gabriel’s prophecy of the seven and sixty-two ‘sevens’ into the lifetime of Christ. The important aspect is after the sixty-two ‘sevens’ the Messiah is cut off. The word: after, 'ahar, a simple adverb, starting the quoted verse means sets the sequence for the Anointed One’s “cutting off” after Christ’s arrival. So no matter which date or method is used, the sequence of events is correctly set.

Mark

 

[teleiosis]

I never said that Jesus confirmed a covenant at the beginning of his ministry.
In the midst of the last week 3.5 years after He was baptized and received the Holy Spirit, became the Messiah, the anointed one He was cut off but not for himself. He said to the Disciples this is the blood of the new covenant. If He didn't prevail then why was the veil of the temple torn and why are we even having this conversion. The new covenant brought all of this to completion.

WHOA!

This is one of the illogical hoops Preterists have to jump through; defining what constitutes the covenant being prevailed for a limited time!

If now you want to maintain that it was in the middle of the one 'seven' that Jesus was baptized, then you're saying it was an abomination. Such a thing should never be said!

If you try and say the covenant Jesus "forced through" (gabar) was at the start, then what of Jesus' pronouncement to the contrary at the Last Supper?
And if you try to say that, then you make Jesus' sacrifice on the cross an abomination; however, it was God's plan for our salvation!
And if you want to try and say that as well and point to Stephen's martyrdom as the end -

1. There is no time we can assign to that
2. There are no desolations for the end of the one 'seven' being poured out as Gabriel foretold!

So the Preterist has a LOT of difficulty on pinning when this limited time covenant is set by Jesus.
Furthermore, there is NO Biblical precept which allows Jesus to force a limited time covenant through! As God is timeless, so is His Word.

And against the argument you would raise that all covenants refer to covenants between God and man, that is not the case in the Bible. A covenant is just an agreement. I have a covenant in my subdivision which is on file in the Recorder of Deeds Office in the County Courthouse. You said:

If you want to get technical about the language show me covenant used to describe anything but Messiah or the Father any where else in the bible.

And I give you Genesis 31:43-44 where Laban and Jacob make a covenant between each other.

This new covenant was presented to the Jews alone for 3.5 years after Jesus shed His blood. Some accepted it most didn't. That ended this prophesy the 70 weeks.

Wow, this is wild speculation on your part! The fact is that the Apostles were in Jerusalem for a couple of decades and didn't stop sharing the Gospel after three and a half years. That is NOT in the Bible, in fact, the evidence in Acts is quite the contrary. It is amazing what lengths people will go to in order to cling to their eschatology.

The gap in the weeks is shown by Gabriel.

He linked the seven and the sixty-two 'sevens' with an "and."
However, He put three different events between the sixty-two 'sevens' and the one 'seven.'
Since first event describes Jesus' death on the cross, and the second happened nearly 40 years later, and the third event is still ongoing: we can conclude a gap between the sixty-two and the one 'seven' exists.

Even Preterists in trying to make the whole of the seventy 'seven's past history stretch the end to A.D. 70! How is not a gap in time a gap? Once a gap exists, does it matter how long it is and it not still be a gap? So the existence of a gap is IN the prophecy Gabriel gave Daniel and Preterists while arguing against it, insist upon it for their A.D. 70 conclusion to prophecy.

Mark

 

[bud02]

This is one of the illogical hoops Preterists have to jump through; defining what constitutes the covenant being prevailed for a limited time!

If now you want to maintain that it was in the middle of the one 'seven' that Jesus was baptized, then you're saying it was an abomination. Such a thing should never be said!

Prevailed for alimited time is what you are drawing from Strongs. Look at the complete definition. Act insolently, exceed, confirm, be great be mighty, would you think that Jesus was a bit insolent at the temple addressing the scribes and Pharisees. The translators threw out the course of history have chosen the word covenant, but you seem to be inclined to correct it with the word prevail.

Well first of all, Mark 1:15 doesn't quite say what you're trying to say it says. The verb there is pleroo, and it means to fill, or to complete. Jesus does not say this fulfills Daniel 9:26, nor does it happen at His Baptism, but only later does He proclaim that with His ministry: Israel has "God with them," or Immanuel.

Messiah or Messias Heb.,=anointed, Would you argue that Jesus became the Messiah at the baptism of John. It was no so much Johns baptismal as it was the "anointing of the Holy Spirit", the testimony from the Father. Jesus the anointed was being the finial week. Messiah means anointed. How much clearer can it be?
Until Messiah the prince there shall be 7 weeks and 62 weeks. I would say Hes right on time. 457 B.C.

The second possible date may be in the seventh year of Artaxerxes I around 457 B.C. This would put the coming of the Messiah as his baptism in A.D. 27 counting in straight solar years and would conform to Jesus being crucified around A.D. 31.

What do we know from His testimony? That He came to fulfill the promise, the old covenant. Lets just use your definition "prevail". He prevailed with many for one week. I have not considered this until you brought up the use of the word, but it works just the same looking back He "prevailed" or "fulfilled the old covenant" looking forward He also "confirmed" the new. Thank you for providing me with yet another point that confirms 9:27 is speaking of the Messiah and not the AC at some future event.

Wow, this is wild speculation on your part! The fact is that the Apostles were in Jerusalem for a couple of decades and didn't stop sharing the Gospel after three and a half years. That is NOT in the Bible, in fact, the evidence in Acts is quite the contrary. It is amazing what lengths people will go to in order to cling to their eschatology.

The gospel is never with held from anyone. This is something you are reading into the text. Presuming that God has forsaken the Jews, never, but they must accept the new covenant. God doesn't yet reject anyone that denies Christ but desires them to receive the truth, the same is true for all Nations just as the promise to Abraham said. But it first came to the house of Israel.
Gabriel said that 70 weeks are determined for you and your people. Who was Danial and his people? From prophesy we can say they are Judah, Benjamin, Levis and a remnant of the other 10 tribes. I'll just use one example of this, Jesus came for the house of Israel. Then He sent them to the Gentiles Paul and Peter. 70 weeks for you and your people.
[sup][/sup]

[sup]21[/sup] Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. [sup]22[/sup] And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”
[sup]23[/sup] But He answered her not a word.
And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
[sup]24[/sup] But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
[sup]25[/sup] Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
[sup]26[/sup] But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
[sup]27[/sup] And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
[sup]28[/sup] Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Yes He did have mercy on a couple of gentiles, but He clearly indicates His mission is Israel.

Well first of all, Mark 1:15 doesn't quite say what you're trying to say it says. The verb there is pleroo, and it means to fill, or to complete. Jesus does not say this fulfills Daniel 9:26, nor does it happen at His Baptism, but only later does He proclaim that with His ministry: Israel has "God with them," or Immanuel.

No Jesus did not say He was fulfilling Danial 26. It was fulfilled 3.5 years after the cross. I don't understand why you keep dancing back and forth with what I have been trying to communicate to you from the beginning. The coming of the Messiah = He received the HS, midst of the week = cross, salvation was not taken "offered" to the gentiles until the completion of the 70th week. I do believe that Jesus standing, as described by Stephen marks that change of time. How many time in the NT alone does it say that Jesus was seated? Don't you suppose that standing denotes a change. It also confirms the 70 weeks for you and your people. Look God made an unconditional agreement with Abraham, This agreement was completed in context of the outline given by Gabriel.

[sup]24[/sup] “ Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city, ............There is now no distinction between Jew and Gentile, Rom 10:7...this did not happen until Peter and Paul were sent to the Gentiles. Just as it says here.
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
[sup]25[/sup] “ Know therefore and understand,

Does this mean God has abandoned Israel and the rest of the promise? No. But Jesus completed the way of salvation at the cross. Their is nothing left to be done for mans salvation.
Lets look at what I said earlier about Peters question to Jesus.

[sup]21[/sup] Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
[sup]22[/sup] Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. [sup]23[/sup] Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.

I don't believe Jesus just dreamed up a number out of His head. He is quoting scripture here, Hes quoting Danial and Gabriel.
Look at what Peter asks. How often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him?
Who is Peter and his brothers? the same people outlined by Gabriel to Danial the Jews. “ Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,
Forgiveness is the root of the question. God bestowed an unconditional promise to Abraham, long before the sacrifice "the finial atonement for sin, JESUS.
But what did God do He forgave the nation of Jacob "Israel" unconditional, He had compassion on them deminstrating and reveiling Himself to the world, making known the way of salvation in Jesus. How often did the Israel nation sin against God and He forgave them? All the way to the cross. Now all they needed to do was accept Jesus, the last sacrifice that would wash their sins away forever. The High Priest was seated and forever intervening for us to the Father that we blameless, without sin. Do you see why the 70th week had to be fulfilled during Jesus life and the short intervention He made in His resurrected body. Danial 9:24 had to be completed and it was. In no way does this void the rest of prophesy in fact 9:24 says prophesy is "sealed" meaning it is destine to be fulfilled. The Lord will call to the remnant of Israel, where ever they have gone He will search them out, and raise them up. If as you say the 70th week is yet future then we must presume that the fulfillment of 9:24 is yet pending. That is IMHO to deny the completed work of Jesus.

 

[bud02]

He linked the seven and the sixty-two 'sevens' with an "and."
However, He put three different events between the sixty-two 'sevens' and the one 'seven.'
Since first event describes Jesus' death on the cross, and the second happened nearly 40 years later, and the third event is still ongoing: we can conclude a gap between the sixty-two and the one 'seven' exists.

Mark

The destruction of the temple was 40 years after the veil of the temple was TORN FROM TOP TO BOTTOM.
Mathew 27:[sup]51[/sup] Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
The symbolism of this is the Holy of Holys was opened. At that time the temple and it sacrifices were of no value. It was desolate.
Do you think that God honored the sacrifices from that time forward, I think not. No more than He would honor a new temple.

And by the way your reference to Is:61 does indicate a gap but it never defined a time in the first place. Many prophesy's span sections of time but 9:24 - 27 defines 70 weeks. It starts with that cut out piece. Besides that logic dictates that 70 always follows 69.

 

[teleiosis]

Oh yeah, the one 'seven' "follows" the sixty-two 'sevens' after Jesus is cut off, the city and the sanctuary are destroyed, and war will be a continual state of mankind's existence right up to when the anti-Christ prevails and has a covenant signed between Jerusalem, the Capitol of Israel and many others.

Watching you twist and blow in the wind trying to make the Hebrew say what you want OT to say is priceless. I'm on my way to Denver for a three-day conference, so I won't be in regular contact for a while.

- Sent from the cell phone from gate D11 at BWI.

 

[teleiosis]

P.S. The temple was not made "desolate" with the physical sign of the departure of God's Spirit from the Holy of Holies.

Jesus said the "abomination" would be in the Holy Place. Biblically, that is in front of the Curtain. Paul said the Man of Lawlessness would be set in the Temple.

Furthermore, the word in Daniel 9:27 is not an adjective, but by the addition of the prefix me- is a noun: desolation.

Nice try Bud, but your exegesis doesn't work.

 

[bud02]

P.S. The temple was not made "desolate" with the physical sign of the departure of God's Spirit from the Holy of Holies.

Jesus said the "abomination" would be in the Holy Place. Biblically, that is in front of the Curtain. Paul said the Man of Lawlessness would be set in the Temple.

Furthermore, the word in Daniel 9:27 is not an adjective, but by the addition of the prefix me- is a noun: desolation.

Nice try Bud, but your exegesis doesn't work.

Do your Strongs check on "Paul said the Man of Lawlessness would be set in the Temple" in 2 thes
then come back and tell me its a building.
Compare the word used to describe the temple proper and the word used to describe "we are the temple"
meaning our flesh.You will find it is the word used to mean our tent or flesh, not the building temple.

 

[bud02]

I'll start the work seeing your in flight.

2 Thes 2:[sup]3[/sup] Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[sup][b][/sup] is revealed, the son of perdition, [sup]4[/sup] who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The word used above is, 3485. naos nah-os' from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple.

Mat 21:[sup]12[/sup] Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. [sup]13[/sup] And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.

The word used above here is, 2411. hieron hee-er-on' neuter of 2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.

[sup]2cor:[/sup][sup]15[/sup] And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? [sup]16[/sup] And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:


“ I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

In the above verse you guest it, its 3485. naos nah-os' from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple.

[sup]5[/sup] Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, [sup]6[/sup] and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:

2411. hieron hee-er-on' neuter of 2413; a sacred place,

Heres a good one.

[sup]John 2:19[/sup] Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
[sup]20[/sup] Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
[sup]21[/sup] But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

As you guested it ..........3485. naos nah-os' from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple.

So it would appear that the TEMPLE in 2 thes is not a building, but a temple of flesh. So also goes the need of a 3rd temple that is not spoken of in Danial 9:27, but is presumed to be, because of the necessity of your translation, that 9:27 is AC and not Jesus Christ. There is no indication of a 3rd temple in scripture. The temple in Rev is the heavenly temple.

 

[teleiosis]

Nonsense. Hey though, just keep changing the subject whenever you'te shown to be in error...

Meanwhile when I'm able to really dissect your take on things, I'll do it, but right now and for the next week and a half, I have more important things to do.

Strong's as the last word in word meaning, LOL! If I want to know how the King James translators translated a word, I'll look there, and it's good for quick look-ups, but if you want serious, modern word study, there are a whole lot better resources than Strongs.

 

[bud02]

Nonsense. Hey though, just keep changing the subject whenever you'te shown to be in error...

Meanwhile when I'm able to really dissecting your take on things, I'll do it, but right now and for the next week and a half, I have more important things to do.

I'll be looking for teleiosis Greek, Hebrew, English new word dictionary.
Thank goodness for academia, us poor stupid folk would never know the truth without them.

just keep changing the subject whenever you'te shown to be in error...

excuse me? your the one that brought up the temple in 2 thes not me.
Your the one looking to prove a third temple is necessary.

P.S. The temple was not made "desolate" with the physical sign of the departure of God's Spirit from the Holy of Holies.

Jesus said the "abomination" would be in the Holy Place. Biblically, that is in front of the Curtain. Paul said the Man of Lawlessness would be set in the Temple.

Furthermore, the word in Daniel 9:27 is not an adjective, but by the addition of the prefix me- is a noun: desolation.

To reply to bold text Just what does it mean if God no longer dwells in the temple.
Did He leave a be back in 2000 year sign next to the torn veil?