Mary’s children?

[Jim B]

No. I do not care to do laps on ground already repeatedly covered.

There are numerous verses that state Jesus has siblings, implying Mary had other children.

There is no implication.

Matthew 12:46-48, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him. Someone told him, “Look, your mother and your brothers are standing outside wanting to speak to you.”

Mark 6:3a, "Isn’t this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And aren’t his sisters here with us?”

 

[Wrangler]

No. I do not care to do laps on ground already repeatedly covered.

There are numerous verses that state Jesus has siblings, implying Mary had other children.

There is no implication.

Yes, there is an implication regarding Mary. I agree that there is no implication regarding Jesus having siblings.

Matthew 12:46-48, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him. Someone told him, “Look, your mother and your brothers are standing outside wanting to speak to you.”

Mark 6:3a, "Isn’t this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And aren’t his sisters here with us?”

Trinitarians tend to invoke all manner of word play. The verses you cited make it plain Jesus had siblings. I've mentioned to soul several times that the motivation for her word play is her theology. To soul, brothers and sisters cannot possibly mean biological because it goes against her theology.

The obvious implication is that if Jesus has siblings, Mary had other children. This does not affect my theology one bit. Mary remains the mother of my lord and savior. The obsession that a married woman remained a virgin and no other children is so odd to me.

 

[Wrangler]

In post #70 I presented a hypothetical situation in which an outside observer, unknown to us, read a statement where you are being called my brother, and applied to it the logic you apply to Gal. 1:19. I then asked if that made you and I biological siblings in reality, and you answered, "yes."

OK. I now realize what you are going on and on and on about. I keep thinking we are done doing laps but you keep lapping. Going back to points already discussed.

So, you have chosen to stand by your answer you and I are biological siblings in reality. Got it.

I have no idea why you are repeatedly emphasizing somebody who does not know us. You are obsessed now with some odd personal attack against me. It has been established by many verses in the Bible that Jesus has siblings, which implies Mary had more children. What are you not getting? What part of this do you not understand.

You do understand it. It's just that these verses do not align with your theology. So, you pretend brother and sister is not definitive if it does not include the adjective, biological. This is a logical fallacy of Appeal to Strawman for this is not the language of the Bible. Aaron is the brother of Moses but nowhere does it say he is the biological brother.

 

[marksman]

then when Jesus said behold your mother it is our spiritual mother and the mother of our salvation

That is not what Jesus said. It is what apostate catholicism says.

 

[Wrangler]

The reason I used a person who is unknown to us

Is to suppose doubt from the text when there is none.

Supposition is not evidence. Brother means biological, by default. You got nothing but supposition. Suppose that by brother they did not mean biological.

I already pointed out how your supposition has no Biblical comparison, such as between Moses and his brother Aaron.

 

[theefaith]

There is no implication.

Matthew 12:46-48, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him. Someone told him, “Look, your mother and your brothers are standing outside wanting to speak to you.”

Mark 6:3a, "Isn’t this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And aren’t his sisters here with us?”

the twelve sons of Jacob are brothers does that imply one mother? They had four mothers!

nowhere does scripture ever say anyone is child of Mary accept Jesus miraculously conceived by the Holy Spirit and the church of which she is spiritual mother

 

[Taken]

Brother means biological brother. It's no assumption.

Agree - in one respect.
Brother does mean, a biological male sibling.

Brother also means, a male sibling, established by a marriage of a persons parents;
Who have previous children;
Or have children together.

Brother also means, relationships of persons of a particular race/ group.

Brother / Sister / Mother also means, a spiritual relationship with the Lord Jesus, of a person whose Father is:
By "stock natural seed" Abraham; (and believes in the Heavenly God);
Has "accepted Abraham as their Earthly father";
Has "accepted Jesus' Heavenly Father, as their Heavenly Father.

Brother also means, relationships of any persons who accept Satan as their father.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[theefaith]

Agree - in one respect.
Brother does mean, a biological male sibling.

Brother also means, a male sibling, established by a marriage of a persons parents;
Who have previous children;
Or have children together.

Brother also means, relationships of persons of a particular race/ group.

Brother / Sister / Mother also means, a spiritual relationship with the Lord Jesus, of a person whose Father is:
By "stock natural seed" Abraham; (and believes in the Heavenly God);
Has "accepted Abraham as their Earthly father";
Has "accepted Jesus' Heavenly Father, as their Heavenly Father.

Brother also means, relationships of any persons who accept Satan as their father.

Glory to God,
Taken

father does not mean biological father but Joseph is the father of Jesus Jn 1:45
Legal father

Mary does not have a sister also named Mary, but it is her sister in law, but a sister in law is still a sister Jn 19:25

In Hebrew culture bother means any close relation

Brothers and sisters of Jesus?

They are not the children of Mary!

Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
(One son, singular)

James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son of Alpheus not Joseph!
Matt 10:2-3

In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.

Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..

Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.

The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They had 4 mother’s, These may be brothers but they are simply not the children of One mother and the brothers of Jesus are not the children of Mary!

Jose’s, Simon Salome are children of another Mary!

Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Is Mary the mother of James?
If you mean the Blessed Virgin Mary then no. Her sister-in-law, Mary of Clopas, was the wife of Alphaeus (St. Joseph's brother), and mother of Simon, Joseph, and the apostles Judas Thaddeus, and James (the Less, brother of the Lord): Jesus' cousins.

The "sisters" of Jesus refer to women disciples.

Salome, or Mary Salome, was the wife of Zebedee, and mother of apostles John (the beloved), and James (the greater).


Regarding Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3, two of the four "brethren" are James and Judas of Alphaeus (cf. Mat. 10:2-3, Lk. 6:15-16, Act. 1:13). The third, Joseph, is identified in Mk. 15:40 as the brother of James of Alphaeus. The fourth, Simon, is identified in Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3 as the brother of Joseph, James, and Judas of Alphaeus. Therefore, all four are were the sons of Alphaeus, not St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

When Jesus was twelve they went up to Jerusalem, the holy family, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus. Where are the brothers and sisters?

Jesus on the cross gives His mother to John, why? Why not James or a brother? Perhaps the law of Moses requires a mother to be given to the next oldest son? Because he was an only Son!
Only begotten of the Father, only begotten of the Mother.

 

[theefaith]

That is not what Jesus said. It is what apostate catholicism says.

is motherhood a requirement for taking care of someone?

behold you mother and the disciple therefore all disciples taker her into their home

was Rachel the spiritual mother of the children of Israel? A type of Mary!

 

[Wrangler]

Brother also means, a male sibling, established by a marriage of a persons parents

Maybe in slang use. This link does not show that word meaning. Definition of BROTHERHere is where the requirement is for an adjective, ‘step.’ Or qualifies some other way, such as soul sister, brother in arms, etc.

Otherwise, we are allowing word play to let words mean whatever you want. If I tell you that I have an apple, it should be understood that, by default, I mean the primary definition; a kind of fruit. If I mean a computer with that name, I should differentiate it. Such as, I have an Apple computer.

The burden is not on the audience to compensate for the speaker’s/writer’s laziness.

One way our society emphasizes that today is by using quotes, such as, he is my step “brother.” The fact that the Scriptural text is straight forward on the matter is only a problem with those with a theological axe to grind.

 

[Wrangler]

father does not mean biological father but Joseph is the father of Jesus Jn 1:45
Legal father

Sorry but you are projecting your 21st century world view onto the text. Legal father is the only context. “Biological” is not a part of ancient religious literature.

Said differently, where else in the Bible. is biological relationships differentiated among family of origin terms father, mother, brother, sister? No where.

 

[theefaith]

Maybe in slang use. This link does not show that word meaning. Definition of BROTHERHere is where the requirement is for an adjective, ‘step.’ Or qualifies some other way, such as soul sister, brother in arms, etc.

Otherwise, we are allowing word play to let words mean whatever you want. If I tell you that I have an apple, it should be understood that, by default, I mean the primary definition; a kind of fruit. If I mean a computer with that name, I should differentiate it. Such as, I have an Apple computer.

The burden is not on the audience to compensate for the speaker’s/writer’s laziness.

One way our society emphasizes that today is by using quotes, such as, he is my step “brother.” The fact that the Scriptural text is straight forward on the matter is only a problem with those with a theological axe to grind.

Don’t care who he is as long as he is NOT a child of Mary ever Virgin
Mother of God and our spiritual mother
Mother of our salvation

 

[theefaith]

Sorry but you are projecting your 21st century world view onto the text. Legal father is the only context. “Biological” is not a part of ancient religious literature.

Said differently, where else in the Bible. is biological relationships differentiated among family of origin terms father, mother, brother, sister? No where.

lot is Abraham’s nephew but called brothers

 

[Taken]

UIKEYINPUTRIGHTARROW

Brothers and sisters of Jesus?

Jesus answers:

Matt 12:
[50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
(One son, singular)

Mary was virgin "when" she became Married to Joseph.
Mary remained a virgin "Until" Jesus was born.

When Jesus was twelve they went up to Jerusalem, the holy family, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus. Where are the brothers and sisters?

Mary and Joseph went to Jerusalem every year for Passover, for a number of years without a mention of taking children with them.
Jesus was their eldest child.
At age 12, Jesus went with his parents to Jerusalem, for Passover.
The Scripture gives no signifance, as to WHERE The younger children of Joseph and Mary were.
Since Mary and Joseph resided in Nazareth...in all likelihood...Mary and Joseph's younger children were in Nazareth, likely the same city Jesus was before age 12, and he going WITH his parents to Jerusalem for Passover.
Speculation is: children under 12 years of age did not make the journey to participate in the Passover feast in Jerusalem.

Luke 2:
[41] Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
[42] And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.

Jesus on the cross gives His mother to John, why? Why not James or a brother? Perhaps the law of Moses requires a mother to be given to the next oldest son? Because he was an only Son!

Perhaps; as Scripture impresses "wisdom and maturity"... applied to Jesus' Disciple John, and not yet, to Jesus' brother James...(which Scripture reveals;
Jesus' request to John was As Jesus' Body was on the cross.
James (brother of Jesus), Faith did Not become manifested Until After Jesus' resurrection...(indicating, At the Time of Jesus' approaching bodily Death...James was Not a prepared candidate to care for Jesus' mother).

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[theefaith]

UIKEYINPUTRIGHTARROW


Jesus answers:

Matt 12:
[50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.



Mary was virgin "when" she became Married to Joseph.
Mary remained a virgin "Until" Jesus was born.



Mary and Joseph went to Jerusalem every year for Passover, for a number of years without a mention of taking children with them.
Jesus was their eldest child.
At age 12, Jesus went with his parents to Jerusalem, for Passover.
The Scripture gives no signifance, as to WHERE The younger children of Joseph and Mary were.
Since Mary and Joseph resided in Nazareth...in all likelihood...Mary and Joseph's younger children were in Nazareth, likely the same city Jesus was before age 12, and he going WITH his parents to Jerusalem for Passover.
Speculation is: children under 12 years of age did not make the journey to participate in the Passover feast in Jerusalem.

Luke 2:
[41] Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
[42] And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.



Perhaps; as Scripture impresses "wisdom and maturity"... applied to Jesus' Disciple John, and not yet, to Jesus' brother James...(which Scripture reveals;
Jesus' request to John was As Jesus' Body was on the cross.
James (brother of Jesus), Faith did Not become manifested Until After Jesus' resurrection...(indicating, At the Time of Jesus' approaching bodily Death...James was Not a prepared candidate to care for Jesus' mother).

Glory to God,
Taken

the law would mandate the next eldest son care for his mother
The rest is nonsense Mary Is a perpetual Virgin and Bible proves it

 

[Taken]

Maybe in slang use. This link does not show that word meaning. Definition of BROTHERHere is where the requirement is for an adjective, ‘step.’ Or qualifies some other way, such as soul sister, brother in arms, etc.

Otherwise, we are allowing word play to let words mean whatever you want. If I tell you that I have an apple, it should be understood that, by default, I mean the primary definition; a kind of fruit. If I mean a computer with that name, I should differentiate it. Such as, I have an Apple computer.

The burden is not on the audience to compensate for the speaker’s/writer’s laziness.

One way our society emphasizes that today is by using quotes, such as, he is my step “brother.” The fact that the Scriptural text is straight forward on the matter is only a problem with those with a theological axe to grind.

I get your drift.
•God taught in a manner familiar to what an Earthly man could comprehend, with hints of a Supernatural Understanding.
•Mankind teaches in a manner familiar to what a child- through teen- through to adult can comprehend.
•Jesus taught in a manner familiar to what an Earthly man could comprehend, with Revelations, of HOW TO comprehend Gods SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING, of His Own Word.

•Earthly men can continue to discuss Earthly man's understanding.
•Earthly men can discuss Spiritual Understanding.
•Earthly men "can not GIVE" Spiritual Understanding to another Earthly man...
(That ^ Understanding / ie. "Spiritual Understanding", is a Gift FROM God, to specific Earthly individuals (and BTW, specific Celestials).

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Wrangler]

the twelve sons of Jacob are brothers does that imply one mother?

No. It does not imply one mother because the text clearly explains Jacob is married to 2 sisters and he also married each sister's servant.

They had four mothers!

Yes. Precisely because the text on Mary's other children is silent, we have to rely on implication. With Jacob, the family tree is explicit. See the difference?

 

[Taken]

the law would mandate the next eldest son care for his mother

Which Law Specific?

The rest is nonsense Mary Is a perpetual Virgin and Bible proves it

Perpetual Virgin? Biblical Proof? Where specifically?

 

[theefaith]

No. It does not imply one mother because the text clearly explains Jacob is married to 2 sisters and he also married each sister's servant.



Yes. Precisely because the text on Mary's other children is silent, we have to rely on implication. With Jacob, the family tree is explicit. See the difference?

Mary’s other children?

 

[theefaith]

Which Law Specific?



Perpetual Virgin? Biblical Proof? Where specifically?

the mosaic law

biblical proof

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
(A son singular) (does James save his people?)