Matthew 13's parables.

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Arnie Manitoba

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
You admit Jesus has received a kingdom, so that means he is reigning. It is self-contradictory to state that someone has been made king, yet is not reigning.

Also you are assuming that Christ is only in heaven. Jesus is in heaven, but his body is on earth through whom he reigns. He is not impotent, as you imply, as he is reigning over the affairs of man as he sees fit as his temple is built. His main concern is that the temple be completed and his servants reign over sin until the consummation. If you think his reign is getting weaker, then that says to me that you are focusing on the visible church and not him, and you really don't understand his return.
I always understood that right now Jesus is building his church ..... not his temple

He has influence down here building his church yes ..... but not reigning yet , and certainly not reigning through us.

I think it is at the millennium when he begins to reign down here.
 

veteran

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, everyone.

I've heard these parables of our Master being used time and time again as support for this point of view or that point of view, that I feel it's high time we understand the true meaning of these parables.

First and foremost, these are parables about the King and His Kingdom, and that does NOT mean about the "church!" Yeshua` is talking about Himself as the future King of Isra'el and the Kingdom of God or God's Kingdom or the Kingdom from the sky (from "heaven") that He brings back with Him when He WILL return!
Well, you're truly wrong about that. Many of Christ's parables DIRECTLY relate to His Church, some for now, and some for His Kingdom to come.

Your thread title is misleading, because it's specific to parables within Matthew 13, but with what you're inferring, you're including all of Christ's parables.

The parable of the sower - definitely about Christ's Church
The parable of the tares of the field - especially to ALL of God's people, which definitely includes Christ's Church
Likewise with the parable of the mustard seed and parable of the leaven.
Likewise with ALL the parables in Matt.13, they are for His Church, ALL... those who believe on Jesus Christ as God's promised Saviour.

In Matthew 21 with Christ's parable of the husbandmen, that's about unbelieving Jews and Christ's Church. Note He said there that His Vineyard would be taken from those blind leaders of the Jews and given to another 'nation' that would bring forth its fruits. That should seal any questionings about who all Christ Jesus was speaking His parables to.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Arnie.

Arnie Manitoba said:
I always understood that right now Jesus is building his church ..... not his temple

He has influence down here building his church yes ..... but not reigning yet , and certainly not reigning through us.

I think it is at the millennium when he begins to reign down here.
Perhaps, but what is His "church?" What is YOUR definition of what HE said He was building? And, does it match HIS definition? We all know that He said, "Upon this rock I will build my church," but our modern definition of "church" is NOT the same thing HE was talking about!


Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
Well, you're truly wrong about that. Many of Christ's parables DIRECTLY relate to His Church, some for now, and some for His Kingdom to come.

Your thread title is misleading, because it's specific to parables within Matthew 13, but with what you're inferring, you're including all of Christ's parables.

The parable of the sower - definitely about Christ's Church
The parable of the tares of the field - especially to ALL of God's people, which definitely includes Christ's Church
Likewise with the parable of the mustard seed and parable of the leaven.
Likewise with ALL the parables in Matt.13, they are for His Church, ALL... those who believe on Jesus Christ as God's promised Saviour.

In Matthew 21 with Christ's parable of the husbandmen, that's about unbelieving Jews and Christ's Church. Note He said there that His Vineyard would be taken from those blind leaders of the Jews and given to another 'nation' that would bring forth its fruits. That should seal any questionings about who all Christ Jesus was speaking His parables to.
These viewpoints on the parables of Matthew 13 are the COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS! Modern "Christians" MISCONSTRUE what Yeshua` was talking about, assuming that they are talking about the present when there is NO BASIS for doing so! You ASSUME that the parable of the sower is about "Christ's church!" (Not capitalized, by the way!) Where's your proof? Yeshua` definitely said, "it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven (or the Kingdom from the sky)," not the "mysteries of the church!" Of the first parable, Yeshua` explained...

Matthew 13:19
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart.
KJV


The underlying assumption that modern "Christians" make is that the "kingdom" is the "church!" THAT'S the faulty assumption! When Yeshua` spoke about a "Kingdom," it wasn't about the "church!" ; it wasn't STARTED, YET! So, what IS this "word of (topic about) the Kingdom?"

Isaiah 52:7-10
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings (gospel), that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings (gospel) of good, that publisheth salvation (RESCUE!); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.
9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed (bought back) Jerusalem.
10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation (RESCUE!) of our God.
KJV


It is when God buys back Jerusalem and returns His people (the People of the Book) to the Land! It will be a day when He does this PUBLICLY in the sight of all the nations, and everyone on the earth shall witness God's RESCUE OF HIS PEOPLE on the Day of the LORD! Then, He (through His Representative, His Messiah, His Christ, Yeshua`) will begin to reign in Jerusalem once again!

Psalm 145:1-21
1 I will extol thee, my God, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever and ever.
2 Every day will I bless thee; and I will praise thy name for ever and ever.
3 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.
4 One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts.
5 I will speak of the glorious honour of thy majesty, and of thy wondrous works.
6 And men shall speak of the might of thy terrible acts: and I will declare thy greatness.
7 They shall abundantly utter the memory of thy great goodness, and shall sing of thy righteousness.
8 The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.
9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.
11 They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power;
12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

14 The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down.
15 The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season.
16 Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing.
17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.
18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.
19 He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.
20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
21 My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.
KJV


Jeremiah 23:1-8
1 Woe be unto the pastors (pasturers; shepherds) that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (YHWH Tsidqeenuw).

7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
KJV


Micah 4:1-8
1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD (YHWH) our God for ever and ever.
6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;
7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.
8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.
KJV


Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV



Revelation 11:15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV

THESE ARE LITERALLY TO BE FULFILLED!!! They won't be fulfilled symbolically, figuratively, or "spiritually" in some way other than what is described in all these verses; they will be fulfilled literally, historically, and in a very real and tangible way and JUST AS THESE VERSES PREDICT! And, they will be fulfiilled RIGHT HERE ON THIS EARTH, RIGHT HERE IN THE CAPITAL CITY OF ISRA'EL, JERUSALEM!

Now, I know that this may be a teaching that is unfamiliar to most, but why should you or others resist this teaching, seeing it comes STRAIGHT OUT OF THE SCRIPTURES?! It may sound unfamiliar and foreign, but couldn't that be because this teaching has been LOST throughout the millennia, forgotten by those who should have remembered it, even trampled into the ground by those who have an anti-Semitic bent?

We lost the simplicity of Scriptures and have substituted a "hyper-spiritual," condescending attitude that twists the Scriptures for what some THINK is a "better way" to interpret the Scriptures! It is nothing of the sort! It is a HERESY to think of the Kingdom as anything but LITERAL, and it was promised FIRST to the children of Isra'el, whom Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) knew as the northern Kingdom (Isra'el) and the southern Kingdom (Yhudah or Judah)! Those of us who are not from the twelve tribes of Isra'el can become part of that citizenship, but that doesn't detract from it being an ISRA'ELI KINGDOM AT ITS HEART!
 

daq

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Retrobyter said:
THESE ARE LITERALLY TO BE FULFILLED!!! They won't be fulfilled symbolically, figuratively, or "spiritually" in some way other than what is described in all these verses; they will be fulfilled literally, historically, and in a very real and tangible way and JUST AS THESE VERSES PREDICT! And, they will be fulfiilled RIGHT HERE ON THIS EARTH, RIGHT HERE IN THE CAPITAL CITY OF ISRA'EL, JERUSALEM!

Now, I know that this may be a teaching that is unfamiliar to most, but why should you or others resist this teaching, seeing it comes STRAIGHT OUT OF THE SCRIPTURES?! It may sound unfamiliar and foreign, but couldn't that be because this teaching has been LOST throughout the millennia, forgotten by those who should have remembered it, even trampled into the ground by those who have an anti-Semitic bent?

We lost the simplicity of Scriptures and have substituted a "hyper-spiritual," condescending attitude that twists the Scriptures for what some THINK is a "better way" to interpret the Scriptures! It is nothing of the sort! It is a HERESY to think of the Kingdom as anything but LITERAL, and it was promised FIRST to the children of Isra'el, whom Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) knew as the northern Kingdom (Isra'el) and the southern Kingdom (Yhudah or Judah)! Those of us who are not from the twelve tribes of Isra'el can become part of that citizenship, but that doesn't detract from it being an ISRA'ELI KINGDOM AT ITS HEART!
The problem with your purely physical understanding is all of the evil and destruction which must first come to pass before the good things you imagine will come into being. Yet when you and your teachers finally do succeed in bringing all of the evil about once again, (just as they did right before WWII as this was already attempted including the preaching of a "thousand year Reich") there is still no guarantee that all the good things you imagined will come to pass after all of the killing is done. It is teaching such as yours, coming from the likes of "Hal 9000", "Tim LaHayride", "Jack Van Skimpy on the Truth", and all of the purely physical and flesh minded teachers, (which have made millions in illuminati-greenback-eye-of-horus-bucks selling their paperback prophecy manuals full of food sacrificed to their idols of Middle East War and Armageddon) which has brought about the current "war status" of the Middle East and the unrest in the rest of the world. For the same reasons the world is marching lock, step, and barrel into the deafening crescendo which will likely result in WWIII in order to deceive the masses of the world which are lucky enough to survive what is coming. The same flesh mongers likewise teach that a third of the population of the earth is going to be slaughtered in the coming war because of a literal interpretation of the Sixth Trumpet, (enter the false prophecy teacher Irvin Baxter with his radio show "Politics and Religion" who teaches that the "Leopard of Daniel 7 is Germany" because of the name "Panzer" which they gave to the battle tanks they built in WWII). The powers that be are salivating over the teachings of these false prophet teachers and their puppets such as yourself because they now get to kill half the population of the world and blame it on your violent and vengeful god. Therefore when all these things do come to pass how will you escape the blood on your hands?
 

John_8:32

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You admit Jesus has received a kingdom, so that means he is reigning. It is self-contradictory to state that someone has been made king, yet is not reigning.

Also you are assuming that Christ is only in heaven. Jesus is in heaven, but his body is on earth through whom he reigns. He is not impotent, as you imply, as he is reigning over the affairs of man as he sees fit as his temple is built. His main concern is that the temple be completed and his servants reign over sin until the consummation.
How about doing a little of that reigning over Ahmadinajad? Or maybe Basher Al Assad? If the saints are reigning on the earth, why didn't they stop the bombing at the Boston Marathon?
If you think his reign is getting weaker, then that says to me that you are focusing on the visible church and not him, and you really don't understand his return.
If this is His reign over earth, and He is trying to save men and the Devil is trying to send them to the Lake of Fire, guess who is winning?
 

veteran

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Arnie.


Perhaps, but what is His "church?" What is YOUR definition of what HE said He was building? And, does it match HIS definition? We all know that He said, "Upon this rock I will build my church," but our modern definition of "church" is NOT the same thing HE was talking about!


Shalom, veteran.


These viewpoints on the parables of Matthew 13 are the COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS! Modern "Christians" MISCONSTRUE what Yeshua` was talking about, assuming that they are talking about the present when there is NO BASIS for doing so! You ASSUME that the parable of the sower is about "Christ's church!" (Not capitalized, by the way!) Where's your proof? Yeshua` definitely said, "it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven (or the Kingdom from the sky)," not the "mysteries of the church!" Of the first parable, Yeshua` explained...
The common misconception is definitely yours, probably from Jewish teachings you've been misled by.

Christ's Kingdom in part has manifested on earth already, with His Church. The difference is that His reign upon David's throne here on earth is not yet, but it will be. And that's when the saved remnant of Israel will manifest with that Kingdom according to the OT prophets.

The subject of the parable of the sower in Matt.13 is about receiving The Word of God in the mind and heart, and producing its fruits. That has been in effect since Christ Jesus' first coming to proclaim His Kingdom. Matt.21 with the parable of the husbandmen reveals how the Jews rejected His Kingdom, and thus He showed His vineyard would be moved and put under authority of others to produce its fruits in Him, and that has happened with His Church, primarily in the Christian west and those peoples outside the west that receive Christ Jesus as The Saviour.

You also reveal you don't really know what the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven really are, as they are definitely revealed to Christ's Church.

Those you're listening to are deceiving you. Just because someone is born a Jew does not mean they have the right to lord over us Christ's Church, or debase Christ's Church. If you are not a member of Christ's Church, then WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE???
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Arnie.


Perhaps, but what is His "church?" What is YOUR definition of what HE said He was building? And, does it match HIS definition? We all know that He said, "Upon this rock I will build my church," but our modern definition of "church" is NOT the same thing HE was talking about!
What does my definition of the Church that Jesus is building have to do with anything here ?

Somebody was trying to say that Jesus is currently building his TEMPLE down here ...... I said NO .... he is currently building his CHURCH
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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John_8:32 said:
How about doing a little of that reigning over Ahmadinajad? Or maybe Basher Al Assad? If the saints are reigning on the earth, why didn't they stop the bombing at the Boston Marathon?If this is His reign over earth, and He is trying to save men and the Devil is trying to send them to the Lake of Fire, guess who is winning?
GOD has a purpose and a plan that is obviously different than your carnal worldview. GOD's will is that man reign over sin; that can only be done individually. His purpose is to build a holy temple, and that obviously takes time. The temple must be built in the midst of a godless world to purify the righteous, and judge the wicked. If your worldview was correct Jesus would have come first as a conquering messiah. But he didn't; his goal is to conquer sin first, because that is the real enemy. The men you mentioned can do nothing they are not ordained or permitted to do by the ruling king.


John_8:32 said:
HIf this is His reign over earth, and He is trying to save men and the Devil is trying to send them to the Lake of Fire, guess who is winning?
Do you seriously think the devil is winning that battle? What pitiful faith.
 

Guestman

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At Luke 19, when Jesus said that "a certain man of noble birth traveled to a distant land to secure kingly power for himself and to return" (Luke 19:12), and then gives "minas" to ten of his "slaves" to "Do business till I come" (Luke 19:13), what did he mean ?


While Jesus was on the earth, he gave to his "slaves" or loyal disciples a royal commission to "go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations......teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you."(Matt 28:19, 20) This was in imitation of Jesus himself who set the pattern, for at Luke 8, it says that "he went journeying from city to city and from village to village, preaching and declaring the good news of the kingdom of God."(Luke 8:1)


It is to be noted that in the illustration at Luke 19, that after giving the commission to his "slaves" with regard to the "minas" (which represents kingdom interest), he then says that "his citizens hated him and sent out a body of ambassadors" to tell their future king that "We do not want this man to become king over us."(Luke 19:14) Thus, the majority of the ones whom are ruled over showed their distaste for him as their king.


Who is the man of "noble birth" ? This is Jesus Christ, but when did he receive "kingly power" ? In 1914, for Revelation 6 provides more clues. It says that a rider on "a white horse" has a "bow" and "a crown was given him", going "forth conquering and to complete his conquest."(Rev 6:2) Upon receiving "kingly power", he fought Satan and his demons and threw them out of heaven down to the vicinity of the earth, causing "woe".(Rev 12:7-9)


And immediately upon receiving " a crown" or "kingly power", as a direct result of Satan's being cast out of heaven, there is another rider on a "fiery-colored horse" who is "granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him."(Rev 6:4)


When was ' peace taken away from the earth ' for the 1st time ? With the outbreak of World War I on July 28, 1914. When it was concluded, an estimated 21 million soldiers and civilians lost their lives. Up to this time, this was the most devasting war in history and was called "The Great War" until the outbreak of World War II on September 1, 1939.


But more was to come, for many lost their lives due to food shortages, as noted at Revelation 6:5, 6, but at Revelation 6:8, it mentions that ' Death and Hades' (mankind's common grave) would have "authority....over the fourth part of the earth" and that along with "food shortages", that death would have its victims by means of "deadly plague".(Rev 6:8b)


What proved to be a "deadly plague" ? Just before World War I ended in 1918, there was an outbreak of flu in March of that year (noted at Fort Riley, Kansas), but it seemed to have subsided within a short while. However, by the end of the year, it broke out again, being named the Spanish Flu, with a vengeance of unsurpassed death, killing upwards an estimated 50 to 100 million people over the course of 1918-19, almost 3 to 5 times that died as a result of WWI, in which an estimated 40 percent of the world's population was infected and only the island of St. Helena was spared.


Jesus as king of God's Messianic Kingdom, will reward his "slaves" who took seriously their commission regarding the "minas" or kingdom interests, preaching "this good news of the kingdom" (Matt 24:14) with having authority as "kings and priests" upon his "return" at Armageddon (Rev 5:9, 10)


At this time it will be known "what they (his slaves) had gained by (kingdom) business activity" (Luke 19:15) what they had done with regard to the global commission to make known "the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations", so that now "the end" (Matt 24:14b) or Armageddon now comes.(Rev 16:14, 16)


It will also be time for Jesus as king of the Messianic kingdom to deal out retribution to his "enemies" and have them slaughtered.(Luke 19:27; Ps 2:9) These "enemies" are everyone who has failed to accept Jesus as Jehovah's anointed king and fully submit to his rulership, to fulfill their responsibility to preach the "good news of the kingdom"(Matt 24:14), to be "no part of the world" (John 15:19), to have gotten out of and remained spiritually clean from all the false religious teachings and practices of Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion.(Rev 18:4; 2 Cor 6:17, 18)
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
The common misconception is definitely yours, probably from Jewish teachings you've been misled by.

Christ's Kingdom in part has manifested on earth already, with His Church. The difference is that His reign upon David's throne here on earth is not yet, but it will be. And that's when the saved remnant of Israel will manifest with that Kingdom according to the OT prophets.

The subject of the parable of the sower in Matt.13 is about receiving The Word of God in the mind and heart, and producing its fruits. That has been in effect since Christ Jesus' first coming to proclaim His Kingdom. Matt.21 with the parable of the husbandmen reveals how the Jews rejected His Kingdom, and thus He showed His vineyard would be moved and put under authority of others to produce its fruits in Him, and that has happened with His Church, primarily in the Christian west and those peoples outside the west that receive Christ Jesus as The Saviour.

You also reveal you don't really know what the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven really are, as they are definitely revealed to Christ's Church.

Those you're listening to are deceiving you. Just because someone is born a Jew does not mean they have the right to lord over us Christ's Church, or debase Christ's Church. If you are not a member of Christ's Church, then WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE???

Hmmph! Hardly! And, leave the Jews out of this! Good or bad, this problem has NOTHING to do with them! As I've said before and I'll go right on saying again and again, if "Christ is reigning right now," ESPECIALLY THROUGH HIS "CHURCH," then He is the most IMPOTENT KING there ever was! If He is the Head and your "Church" is the body, then there must have been a DECAPITATION, because the body sure isn't following the Head! Fooey, they can't even judge themselves let alone govern others!

No, I'm looking forward to a REAL RULE AND REIGN of the REAL, POWERFUL Messiah! The One who rules the nations with a rod of iron, not a whip of soggy spaghetti!

Do you seriously think that there will be ANY terrorists who could get away with a bombing?! NO WEAPON FORMED AGAINST YOU SHALL PROSPER! Yeshua` will CONTAIN the blast of the largest nuclear weapon the enemy has to offer, and defuse its power at the subatomic level! Then He, like His Father, will ridicule the attempt and slay them in His wrath! He will stomp them like so many grapes in a wine vat!

And, the subject of the first parable of Matthew 13 is the MESSAGE ABOUT THE KINGDOM! It is NOT about the "Word of God," and it has NOTHING to do with that abomination that today is called the "Church!" That abomination is NOTHING like the original EKKLEESIA!

Get your head out of the "Church" sand and back on the Rock where it belongs!
 

7angels

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Arnie.


Perhaps, but what is His "church?" What is YOUR definition of what HE said He was building? And, does it match HIS definition? We all know that He said, "Upon this rock I will build my church," but our modern definition of "church" is NOT the same thing HE was talking about!


Shalom, veteran.


These viewpoints on the parables of Matthew 13 are the COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS! Modern "Christians" MISCONSTRUE what Yeshua` was talking about, assuming that they are talking about the present when there is NO BASIS for doing so! You ASSUME that the parable of the sower is about "Christ's church!" (Not capitalized, by the way!) Where's your proof? Yeshua` definitely said, "it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven (or the Kingdom from the sky)," not the "mysteries of the church!" Of the first parable, Yeshua` explained...

Matthew 13:19
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart.
KJV


The underlying assumption that modern "Christians" make is that the "kingdom" is the "church!" THAT'S the faulty assumption! When Yeshua` spoke about a "Kingdom," it wasn't about the "church!" ; it wasn't STARTED, YET! So, what IS this "word of (topic about) the Kingdom?"

Isaiah 52:7-10
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings (gospel), that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings (gospel) of good, that publisheth salvation (RESCUE!); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.
9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed (bought back) Jerusalem.
10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation (RESCUE!) of our God.
KJV


It is when God buys back Jerusalem and returns His people (the People of the Book) to the Land! It will be a day when He does this PUBLICLY in the sight of all the nations, and everyone on the earth shall witness God's RESCUE OF HIS PEOPLE on the Day of the LORD! Then, He (through His Representative, His Messiah, His Christ, Yeshua`) will begin to reign in Jerusalem once again!
i could be wrong but i was taught that the parable of the sower for example explains how the Word is recieved among those that hear it whether saved or unsaved correct? doesn't it also depend upon the heart of the individual because what is hidden or revealed would depend upon the the heart of the listener?

i have found that the next 3 parables show us the devices that satan uses against us in the parable of the sower.

in the tarrif example it tells us that as time goes on there comes a difference between the wheat and tariff because eventually the wheat will bud and become fruitful. this is referring to those that are actually children of God and those that are pretenders.

in the parable of the sower Jesus says if you don't understand this parable how are you going to understand the rest of the parables. having a mustard seed grow into a 4 foot tree was abnormal. so having the birds(which represent satan from the parable of the sower) not just coming in among God's people but according to the end of verse 32 they find a home among God's people. so what it comes down to is grow which accommendates evil like false teachers and false teachings. we need to look at how large the church is today and see how much of it is based off of false doctrine and how much is genuine.

in the parable of the leaven you will find that in the bible leaven is referred to as sin or evil. sin getting into the church if left unchecked will end up contaminating the whole body. people attach to the bible just enough to give the impression of legitimacy and then they go off and do their own thing even if they know it to be wrong.

in the parable of the treasure hidden in a field i find it reminds me of Jesus who is the greatest treasure and when we find him then we are willing to give everything we have to get him.

in the parable of the merchant seeking pearls is speaking basically about the same thing as the treasure hidden in a field parable.

in the parable of the net cast into the sea we find we are preaching to mankind and the gathering is started and a time will come when there will be a separating out of the righteous people and the wicked people. and the wicked will be sent into the lake of fire. this i believe is referring to the great throne of judgement where everyone will be held accountable for their actions while on the earth.

i believe all these parables tell us how we should and should not behave like and the cause and effect of the actions that we choose to follow.

God bless
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, 7angels.

7angels said:
i could be wrong but i was taught that the parable of the sower for example explains how the Word is recieved among those that hear it whether saved or unsaved correct? doesn't it also depend upon the heart of the individual because what is hidden or revealed would depend upon the the heart of the listener?

i have found that the next 3 parables show us the devices that satan uses against us in the parable of the sower.

in the tarrif example it tells us that as time goes on there comes a difference between the wheat and tariff because eventually the wheat will bud and become fruitful. this is referring to those that are actually children of God and those that are pretenders.

in the parable of the sower Jesus says if you don't understand this parable how are you going to understand the rest of the parables. having a mustard seed grow into a 4 foot tree was abnormal. so having the birds(which represent satan from the parable of the sower) not just coming in among God's people but according to the end of verse 32 they find a home among God's people. so what it comes down to is grow which accommendates evil like false teachers and false teachings. we need to look at how large the church is today and see how much of it is based off of false doctrine and how much is genuine.

in the parable of the leaven you will find that in the bible leaven is referred to as sin or evil. sin getting into the church if left unchecked will end up contaminating the whole body. people attach to the bible just enough to give the impression of legitimacy and then they go off and do their own thing even if they know it to be wrong.

in the parable of the treasure hidden in a field i find it reminds me of Jesus who is the greatest treasure and when we find him then we are willing to give everything we have to get him.

in the parable of the merchant seeking pearls is speaking basically about the same thing as the treasure hidden in a field parable.

in the parable of the net cast into the sea we find we are preaching to mankind and the gathering is started and a time will come when there will be a separating out of the righteous people and the wicked people. and the wicked will be sent into the lake of fire. this i believe is referring to the great throne of judgement where everyone will be held accountable for their actions while on the earth.

i believe all these parables tell us how we should and should not behave like and the cause and effect of the actions that we choose to follow.

God bless
<Sigh.> Heavens, NO! The first parable is about what one does with the MESSAGE ABOUT THE KINGDOM! It's not at all about whether one is "saved" or "unsaved!" That's PURE "MODERN-SPEAK" and is not at all what Yeshua` was talking about!

Look. Every one of the children of Isra'el knew about the Kingdom because they heard about it at least once a year! As they read through the Tanakh, the HOLY SCRIPTURES, what you would call the "Old Testament," they encountered NUMEROUS places that referred to the Messiah and His Kingdom. If you were able to ask them, they would tell you exactly what the Kingdom is going to be! It's talked about in the Tehilliym (the Psalms) by David, and the prophecies of God as related through Yeshayahu (Isaiah), Y'chezk'el (Ezekiel), `Ovedyahu (Obadiah), Dani'el (Daniel), Yo'el (Joel), Michah (Micah), Z'kharyahu (Zechariah), Ts'fanyahu (Zephaniah), and even Malakhiy (Malachi). They were well familiar with the Kingdom of God! What they didn't know was that Yeshua` was haMashiach Elohiym (the Messiah of God) and how that would play out with those prophecies related to "the Suffering and Dying Messiah." But, they were ready for "the Victorious and Reigning Messiah."

All of the remaining parables were parables ABOUT THE KINGDOM!!! They are not about the present at all! They are about the FUTURE! Please, get that right! And, as I've already said and apparently you missed, here's how the parable of the leaven reads:

Matthew 13:33
33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
KJV

The Kingdom from the sky is what is likened to the leaven!!! So, how in the world could the "leaven" be a "TYPE OF SIN??!!!" IT CAN'T!!! Are you trying to say that the "Kingdom from the sky," the "Kingdom of heaven," is a "type of sin?" THINK!

NONE of these parables are about the present, particularly about the "church!" They are about the FUTURE and about the KINGDOM, which the Messiah brings back with Him!

Luke 19:11-15
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
KJV

We are NOT currently within that Kingdom!

May your eyes be opened to the truth.


Shalom, Arnie.

Arnie Manitoba said:
What does my definition of the Church that Jesus is building have to do with anything here ?

Somebody was trying to say that Jesus is currently building his TEMPLE down here ...... I said NO .... he is currently building his CHURCH
Your definition of the "Church" (and that of others) has MUCH to do with this subject. See, the larger majority thinks that "the Kingdom of Heaven" refers to the "Church," as though it was a separate nation all to itself. That was where organizations such as the Roman Catholic Church and the Mormon Church went HORRIBLY wrong! The whole concept of a "Vatican City" (a nation separate from Italy) and an Independence, Missouri, being physical centers for this "spiritual Kingdom" is indicative of this error! However, the FUNDAMENTAL error is in thinking that the "spiritual Kingdom" is the "CHURCH!" That's what I mean about the "definition of Church." Do you equate it to the "Kingdom of God" or the "Kingdom of heaven?" If you do, then you don't understand those terms any better than the RCC or the Mormons!
 
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7angels

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, 7angels.


<Sigh.> Heavens, NO! The first parable is about what one does with the MESSAGE ABOUT THE KINGDOM! It's not at all about whether one is "saved" or "unsaved!" That's PURE "MODERN-SPEAK" and is not at all what Yeshua` was talking about!

Look. Every one of the children of Isra'el knew about the Kingdom because they heard about it at least once a year! As they read through the Tanakh, the HOLY SCRIPTURES, what you would call the "Old Testament," they encountered NUMEROUS places that referred to the Messiah and His Kingdom. If you were able to ask them, they would tell you exactly what the Kingdom is going to be! It's talked about in the Tehilliym (the Psalms) by David, and the prophecies of God as related through Yeshayahu (Isaiah), Y'chezk'el (Ezekiel), `Ovedyahu (Obadiah), Dani'el (Daniel), Yo'el (Joel), Michah (Micah), Z'kharyahu (Zechariah), Ts'fanyahu (Zephaniah), and even Malakhiy (Malachi). They were well familiar with the Kingdom of God! What they didn't know was that Yeshua` was haMashiach Elohiym (the Messiah of God) and how that would play out with those prophecies related to "the Suffering and Dying Messiah." But, they were ready for "the Victorious and Reigning Messiah."

All of the remaining parables were parables ABOUT THE KINGDOM!!! They are not about the present at all! They are about the FUTURE! Please, get that right! And, as I've already said and apparently you missed, here's how the parable of the leaven reads:

Matthew 13:33
33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
KJV

The Kingdom from the sky is what is likened to the leaven!!! So, how in the world could the "leaven" be a "TYPE OF SIN??!!!" IT CAN'T!!! Are you trying to say that the "Kingdom from the sky," the "Kingdom of heaven," is a "type of sin?" THINK!

NONE of these parables are about the present, particularly about the "church!" They are about the FUTURE and about the KINGDOM, which the Messiah brings back with Him!

Luke 19:11-15
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
KJV

We are NOT currently within that Kingdom!

May your eyes be opened to the truth.
i need clarification first off about this first parable. you claim it is all about the kingdom.

but i come up with this reasoning and it is best explained by Matthew Henry

The seed sown is the word of God, here called the word of the kingdom (v. 19): the kingdom of heaven, that is the kingdom; the kingdoms of the world, compared with that, are not to be called kingdoms. The gospel comes from that kingdom, and conducts to that kingdom; the word of the gospel is the word of the kingdom; it is the word of the King, and where that is, there is power; it is a law, by which we must be ruled and governed. This word is the seed sown, which seems a dead, dry thing, but all the product is virtually in it. It is incorruptible seed (1 Pt. 1:23); it is the gospel that brings forth fruit in souls, Col. 1:5, 6.
(2.) The sower that scatters the seed is our Lord Jesus Christ, either by himself, or by his ministers; see v. 37. The people are God’s husbandry, his tillage, so the word is; and ministers are labourers together with God, 1 Co. 3:9. Preaching to a multitude is sowing the corn; we know not where it must light; only see that it be good, that it be clean, and be sure to give it seed enough. The sowing of the word is the sowing of a people for God’s field, the corn of his floor, Isa. 21:10.
(3.) The ground in which this seed is sown is the hearts of the children of men, which are differently qualified and disposed, and accordingly the success of the word is different. Note, Man’s heart is like soil, capable of improvement, of bearing good fruit; it is pity it should lie fallow, or be like the field of the slothful, Prov. 24:30. The soul is the proper place for the word of God to dwell, and work, and rule in; its operation is upon conscience, it is to light that candle of the Lord. Now according as we are, so the word is to us: Recipitur ad modum recipientis—The reception depends upon the receiver. As it is with the earth; some sort of ground, take ever so much pains with it, and throw ever so good seed into it, yet it brings forth no fruit to any purpose; while the good soil brings forth plentifully: so it is with the hearts of men, whose different characters are here represented by four sorts of ground, of which three are bad, and but one good. Note, The number of fruitless hearers is very great, even of those who heard Christ himself. Who has believed our report? It is a melancholy prospect which this parable gives us of the congregations of those who hear the gospel preached, that scarcely one in four brings forth fruit to perfection. Many are called with the common call, but in few is the eternal choice evidenced by the efficacy of that call, ch. 20:16.

btw i read your parable from luke 19 and agree that it is referring to the Jesus and his future kingdom but that does not mean all the rest of the parables are saying or referring to the same thing. also matt 13:33 you have a point. i will do some research on the matter.

God bless
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat shalom, 7angels.

7angels said:
i need clarification first off about this first parable. you claim it is all about the kingdom.

but i come up with this reasoning and it is best explained by Matthew Henry

The seed sown is the word of God, here called the word of the kingdom (v. 19): the kingdom of heaven, that is the kingdom; the kingdoms of the world, compared with that, are not to be called kingdoms. The gospel comes from that kingdom, and conducts to that kingdom; the word of the gospel is the word of the kingdom; it is the word of the King, and where that is, there is power; it is a law, by which we must be ruled and governed. This word is the seed sown, which seems a dead, dry thing, but all the product is virtually in it. It is incorruptible seed (1 Pt. 1:23); it is the gospel that brings forth fruit in souls, Col. 1:5, 6.
(2.) The sower that scatters the seed is our Lord Jesus Christ, either by himself, or by his ministers; see v. 37. The people are God’s husbandry, his tillage, so the word is; and ministers are labourers together with God, 1 Co. 3:9. Preaching to a multitude is sowing the corn; we know not where it must light; only see that it be good, that it be clean, and be sure to give it seed enough. The sowing of the word is the sowing of a people for God’s field, the corn of his floor, Isa. 21:10.
(3.) The ground in which this seed is sown is the hearts of the children of men, which are differently qualified and disposed, and accordingly the success of the word is different. Note, Man’s heart is like soil, capable of improvement, of bearing good fruit; it is pity it should lie fallow, or be like the field of the slothful, Prov. 24:30. The soul is the proper place for the word of God to dwell, and work, and rule in; its operation is upon conscience, it is to light that candle of the Lord. Now according as we are, so the word is to us: Recipitur ad modum recipientis—The reception depends upon the receiver. As it is with the earth; some sort of ground, take ever so much pains with it, and throw ever so good seed into it, yet it brings forth no fruit to any purpose; while the good soil brings forth plentifully: so it is with the hearts of men, whose different characters are here represented by four sorts of ground, of which three are bad, and but one good. Note, The number of fruitless hearers is very great, even of those who heard Christ himself. Who has believed our report? It is a melancholy prospect which this parable gives us of the congregations of those who hear the gospel preached, that scarcely one in four brings forth fruit to perfection. Many are called with the common call, but in few is the eternal choice evidenced by the efficacy of that call, ch. 20:16.

btw i read your parable from luke 19 and agree that it is referring to the Jesus and his future kingdom but that does not mean all the rest of the parables are saying or referring to the same thing. also matt 13:33 you have a point. i will do some research on the matter.

God bless
With all due respect to Rev. Matthew Henry, the man lived in the late 1600s and early 1700s (from October 18, 1662 to June 6, 1714) and died before he was 52 years old! He had the typical, nonconformist minister's garb at the time complete with powdered wig. His commentary in six volumes was written from 1706 to 1721 (he only wrote through Acts and others wrote from Romans through Revelation) and published shortly after that, seven years after his death! What would he know about a real, restored Isra'el? OF COURSE, he's going to try to make these parables applicable to the time! What else COULD he believe or do?

Yeshua`s Kingdom from the sky is of a much greater caliber than he saw. As an English Presbyterian minister, he was given to application preaching. Wikipedia makes this comment in its article on Matthew Henry:

Henry's commentaries are primarily exegetical, dealing with the scripture text as presented, with his prime intention being explanation, for practical and devotional purposes. While not being a work of textual research, for which Henry recommended Matthew Poole's Synopsis Criticorum, Henry's Exposition gives the result of a critical account of the original as of his time, with practical application. It was considered sensible and stylish, a commentary for devotional purposes.
(Emphasis mine.)

But we have "exegetical" preaching and "practical application" "for devotional purposes" running out of our ears! It's high time we started to use the pimple on our shoulders for something more than a hat rack!

Let's go back to when Yeshua` said these words: Matthew 13 was written after the P'rushiym (Pharisees) accused Him of casting out daemons by the power of "Ba'al-Zebuwb" (the "Lord of the Flies," also called "Ba'al-Zebuwl," the "Lord of the Dung"), and then asked Him to give them a sign. This occurred while they were still in the Galiyl (Galilee), possibly in the town of K'far Nachum (Capernaum). This was probably in the second year of His "ministry."

How many at this point in His ministry knew and accepted that He was the Messiah of God? His disciples only.
How many knew He was going to die? NONE of them!
How many accepted that He was going to come back to life? NONE of them!
But, how many knew about and believed in the Kingdom from the sky, God's Kingdom? ALL of them! It is well recorded in Isaiah 52:7 and in other places as well in the Tanakh (the OT). That's why, early in His "ministry," shortly after Yochanan (John) was put in prison, this is written:

Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV

And, this was written BEFORE the parables of Matthew 13 were spoken! He didn't have to explain what that "Kingdom of God" was nor did He have to teach them what the "gospel" or "good news" was! They are assumed here to ALREADY KNOW what it was!

And THIS is that "good news" or "gospel":

Isaiah 52:7-10
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! (THAT'S "good news!")
8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.
9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations (He's rolled up His sleeve to go to work); and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation (rescuing) of our God.
KJV


And it was THIS that was quoted in Romans 10:15:

Romans 10:12-15
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
KJV


Notice, too, that it is THIS kind of "salvation" or "rescuing" that is talked about in the other quote of Romans 10:13, Joel 2:32:

Joel 2:30-3:2
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered (rescued): for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance (rescuing), as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
KJV


And, that word translated as "and will plead" is the Hebrew word "vnishpaTtiy" meaning "and I will judge!" BOTH passages which Paul quoted were passages about Isra'el's NATIONAL RESCUE when the Messiah returns!
 

veteran

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Retrobyter, on 25 Apr 2013 - 01:32 underfined, said:


Shalom, veteran.


Hmmph! Hardly! And, leave the Jews out of this! Good or bad, this problem has NOTHING to do with them! As I've said before and I'll go right on saying again and again, if "Christ is reigning right now," ESPECIALLY THROUGH HIS "CHURCH," then He is the most IMPOTENT KING there ever was! If He is the Head and your "Church" is the body, then there must have been a DECAPITATION, because the body sure isn't following the Head! Fooey, they can't even judge themselves let alone govern others!
Hard to believe that heeding the traditions of the Jews clouds understanding in God's Word, especially when it comes to the New Covenant through Yeshua Messiah Jesus Christ. That's our Heavenly Father doing that by the way (2 Cor.3). In this thread you have really revealed how you are still under that vail. Christ will remove it though when you're ready to listen to Him instead of a lot of the Jew's traditions coming from the old Pharisee teachings within Judaism.

You're statement against Christ's Kingdom having been already established in part here on earth, through His Church, is nothing but hot air. The history of the Christian Church is one of the greatest SUCCESS stories to ever occur upon this earth, and His Church here is STILL growing today!!! God did that by His Son through The Gospel, and is still... doing it today.

What the greatest paradox in your understanding really is, is how the Jew's traditions have blinded you away from the prophecies written in the Old Testament Books that this very establishing of Christ's Church on earth through Christian history was well written of by them. The unbelieving Jews are so busy hating 'Christianity' that they have completely missed the establishing. (Lot of my Christian brethren have missed those prophecies too, because of their doing the same thing you're doing, listening to the traditions of the Jews that creep in among them.) The ones behind that hatred of Christianity and The Gospel are 'false Jews', those like Jesus proclaimed as the "synagogue of Satan" in Rev.2:9 and Rev.3:9. Those are not God's people, and they HATE Christ Jesus, Yeshu'a, Messiah, period. They HATE Yahaveh also! They love Lucifer, and he actually is their... god. Those are the ones driving the false traditions of the Jews, and were present in Jesus' day to push to have Him crucified. They crept in among Israel many centuries ago, and are NOT of geneology from Jacob or Abraham (Judges 2 & 3; Jude 1; 1 Chron.2:55; 1 Kings 9:19-22; Ezra 2:58; Ezra 2:61-62; Ezra 9:1-3).

How does all that relate to the topic of this thread you might be asking yourself? It's about the parable of the tares of the field that Jesus also gave... in that Matthew 13 chapter you brought up with this thread, and it is one of God's Mysteries for this present time. I'm revealing it to you for YOUR benefit mainly, so you 'might' begin to understand much of the influence of the false Jew's practices and traditions against Christianity, and just WHERE that working originates from false those crept in unawares.

Now, a little Gospel history proof of Christ establishing His Kingdom in part here on earth through His Church on earth:

1. The majority of the Jews rejected Christ and His Kingdom at His first coming. Not all Jews did though, which also included some of the Pharisees too according to NT Scripture. Christ Jesus in Matt.21 revealed His vineyard, which was defined in Isaiah 5 as being the "house of Israel" (ten tribes), would be removed from unbelieving Jews' care, and given to another "nation" that would bring forth fruits of the vineyard, pointing to... The Gospel and thus CHRISTIANITY. After Christ's crucifixion and resurrection He sent His disciples to the Gentiles and those of the scattered "house of Israel" that were among those Gentiles, primarily in the West in Asia Minor and Europe where the seven Churches in Asia Minor were established and built from. A remnant of Judah was also scattered to the West where those Gentiles and Israelites of the "house of Israel" were, and they BECAME believers also, and established MANY Christian Churches in the West. EYE OPENER: not all born of Judah were raised in the traditions of the Jews like those in Jerusalem that rejected The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

2. After the Kingdom was rejected in Jerusalem, The Gospel was preached next to the Western nations of history. Britain became the 1st nation to accept Jesus Christ on a national scale. Other nations in the West soon followed. Christian kings and queens were established upon thrones with all the earmarks of the house of David and the most powerful navies and armies on earth (the Gen.49:10 and 2 Samuel 7 Scripture reveals David's earthly throne was to be established on earth unto ALL generations, until Christ returns-second coming, and then the gathering of the people would be to Him.) That throne of David is still... established among the Western Christian Nations today, on earth, and that earthly throne belongs to Christ Jesus when He returns in our very near future!

3. From the Western Christian Nations, The Gospel went forth afterwards to other nations outside the West. Isaiah covers the prophecy of ambassadors going to the nations, and many have been added to Christ's Church (still happenning).

4. God's Birthright Promises through Abraham to Israel (Jacob) down to Ephraim and Manasseh of blessings of great wealth (resources), controlling the gates of his enemies, as many children as the stars and sand of the sea; a ruler upon a throne; plenty of corn and wine; and Ephraim becoming "a multitude of nations", HAS BEEN FULFILLED FOR CENTURIES IN THE CHRISTIAN WEST, under Jesus Christ and The Gospel.


But we are now in the latter days when God foretold His people through His prophet Daniel that the power of the holy people would be scattered (Dan.12), in order to finish the prophecies He foretold for the very END of this world. Christ's enemies have been TRYING to destroy His Church off this earth for centuries, and after The Gospel went forth that attack has been mainly upon the Western Christian Nations of history and especially other believers on Christ Jesus in nations outside the West. But AMAZING...Christ's Church STILL is STANDING here on earth TODAY! The Jews will NEVER EVER be able to destroy it. Those false Jews who follow Lucifer will soon have a reckoning coming upon them from Christ Jesus de facto, in Person. It is not far off now. The degradations and infiltration of false Jews by their vain doctrines within the Christian Church today is not far off from being purged out also.

God has revealed this to His servants who listen to Him and stay in His Word through His Son Jesus Christ. To others, it... is... not... given. To those it is not given is because they don't listen to Him directly in His Word of Truth, but to men's traditions instead.
 

7angels

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ok let me address one point at a time please.


Retrobyter said:
Shabbat shalom, 7angels.


With all due respect to Rev. Matthew Henry, the man lived in the late 1600s and early 1700s (from October 18, 1662 to June 6, 1714) and died before he was 52 years old! He had the typical, nonconformist minister's garb at the time complete with powdered wig. His commentary in six volumes was written from 1706 to 1721 (he only wrote through Acts and others wrote from Romans through Revelation) and published shortly after that, seven years after his death! What would he know about a real, restored Isra'el? OF COURSE, he's going to try to make these parables applicable to the time! What else COULD he believe or do?

Yeshua`s Kingdom from the sky is of a much greater caliber than he saw. As an English Presbyterian minister, he was given to application preaching. Wikipedia makes this comment in its article on Matthew Henry:


(Emphasis mine.)

But we have "exegetical" preaching and "practical application" "for devotional purposes" running out of our ears! It's high time we started to use the pimple on our shoulders for something more than a hat rack!

Let's go back to when Yeshua` said these words: Matthew 13 was written after the P'rushiym (Pharisees) accused Him of casting out daemons by the power of "Ba'al-Zebuwb" (the "Lord of the Flies," also called "Ba'al-Zebuwl," the "Lord of the Dung"), and then asked Him to give them a sign. This occurred while they were still in the Galiyl (Galilee), possibly in the town of K'far Nachum (Capernaum). This was probably in the second year of His "ministry."

How many at this point in His ministry knew and accepted that He was the Messiah of God? His disciples only.
How many knew He was going to die? NONE of them!
How many accepted that He was going to come back to life? NONE of them!
But, how many knew about and believed in the Kingdom from the sky, God's Kingdom? ALL of them! It is well recorded in Isaiah 52:7 and in other places as well in the Tanakh (the OT). That's why, early in His "ministry," shortly after Yochanan (John) was put in prison, this is written:

Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV

And, this was written BEFORE the parables of Matthew 13 were spoken! He didn't have to explain what that "Kingdom of God" was nor did He have to teach them what the "gospel" or "good news" was! They are assumed here to ALREADY KNOW what it was!

And THIS is that "good news" or "gospel":

Isaiah 52:7-10
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! (THAT'S "good news!")
8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.
9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations (He's rolled up His sleeve to go to work); and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation (rescuing) of our God.
KJV


And it was THIS that was quoted in Romans 10:15:

Romans 10:12-15
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
KJV


Notice, too, that it is THIS kind of "salvation" or "rescuing" that is talked about in the other quote of Romans 10:13, Joel 2:32:

Joel 2:30-3:2
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered (rescued): for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance (rescuing), as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
KJV


And, that word translated as "and will plead" is the Hebrew word "vnishpaTtiy" meaning "and I will judge!" BOTH passages which Paul quoted were passages about Isra'el's NATIONAL RESCUE when the Messiah returns!
about matthew henry i will not reply and i will not reply because i know nothing about where he was spiritually with God. but i will say that they said similar things against Jesus, paul, and many other christians and that was not 300-400 yeas ago but 2000 years ago and yet we still quote them. time has very little to do with God or the things of God.

matt 1:14-15 says the Kingdom of God is at hand. in other words the kingdom of God is coming. God's kingdom has always been around so what is it that Jesus is referring too? could it be the kingdom of Heaven which is referred to in matthew? then what exactly is this kingdom of Heaven?

is 52:7 says How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, "Your God reigns!" how do we accomplish this? is it by doing the will of God? if it is by the will of God then how do we know the will of God? do we know the will of God by reading the bible?

rom 10:12-15 tells me that those calling upon God will be saved(helped) but that does not necessarily mean that they are saved and going to heaven. rom 10:9-10 tells us the requirements for salvation. if you have not done that which is reqiured then you are not saved.

sorry but i have to go and i will explain more later if necessary.

God bless
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
veteran, on 27 Apr 2013 - 09:30 undefined, said:

Hard to believe that heeding the traditions of the Jews clouds understanding in God's Word, especially when it comes to the New Covenant through Yeshua Messiah Jesus Christ. That's our Heavenly Father doing that by the way (2 Cor.3). In this thread you have really revealed how you are still under that vail. Christ will remove it though when you're ready to listen to Him instead of a lot of the Jew's traditions coming from the old Pharisee teachings within Judaism.

You're statement against Christ's Kingdom having been already established in part here on earth, through His Church, is nothing but hot air. The history of the Christian Church is one of the greatest SUCCESS stories to ever occur upon this earth, and His Church here is STILL growing today!!! God did that by His Son through The Gospel, and is still... doing it today.

What the greatest paradox in your understanding really is, is how the Jew's traditions have blinded you away from the prophecies written in the Old Testament Books that this very establishing of Christ's Church on earth through Christian history was well written of by them. The unbelieving Jews are so busy hating 'Christianity' that they have completely missed the establishing. (Lot of my Christian brethren have missed those prophecies too, because of their doing the same thing you're doing, listening to the traditions of the Jews that creep in among them.) The ones behind that hatred of Christianity and The Gospel are 'false Jews', those like Jesus proclaimed as the "synagogue of Satan" in Rev.2:9 and Rev.3:9. Those are not God's people, and they HATE Christ Jesus, Yeshu'a, Messiah, period. They HATE Yahaveh also! They love Lucifer, and he actually is their... god. Those are the ones driving the false traditions of the Jews, and were present in Jesus' day to push to have Him crucified. They crept in among Israel many centuries ago, and are NOT of geneology from Jacob or Abraham (Judges 2 &amp; 3; Jude 1; 1 Chron.2:55; 1 Kings 9:19-22; Ezra 2:58; Ezra 2:61-62; Ezra 9:1-3).

How does all that relate to the topic of this thread you might be asking yourself? It's about the parable of the tares of the field that Jesus also gave... in that Matthew 13 chapter you brought up with this thread, and it is one of God's Mysteries for this present time. I'm revealing it to you for YOUR benefit mainly, so you 'might' begin to understand much of the influence of the false Jew's practices and traditions against Christianity, and just WHERE that working originates from false those crept in unawares.

Now, a little Gospel history proof of Christ establishing His Kingdom in part here on earth through His Church on earth:

1. The majority of the Jews rejected Christ and His Kingdom at His first coming. Not all Jews did though, which also included some of the Pharisees too according to NT Scripture. Christ Jesus in Matt.21 revealed His vineyard, which was defined in Isaiah 5 as being the "house of Israel" (ten tribes), would be removed from unbelieving Jews' care, and given to another "nation" that would bring forth fruits of the vineyard, pointing to... The Gospel and thus CHRISTIANITY. After Christ's crucifixion and resurrection He sent His disciples to the Gentiles and those of the scattered "house of Israel" that were among those Gentiles, primarily in the West in Asia Minor and Europe where the seven Churches in Asia Minor were established and built from. A remnant of Judah was also scattered to the West where those Gentiles and Israelites of the "house of Israel" were, and they BECAME believers also, and established MANY Christian Churches in the West. EYE OPENER: not all born of Judah were raised in the traditions of the Jews like those in Jerusalem that rejected The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

2. After the Kingdom was rejected in Jerusalem, The Gospel was preached next to the Western nations of history. Britain became the 1st nation to accept Jesus Christ on a national scale. Other nations in the West soon followed. Christian kings and queens were established upon thrones with all the earmarks of the house of David and the most powerful navies and armies on earth (the Gen.49:10 and 2 Samuel 7 Scripture reveals David's earthly throne was to be established on earth unto ALL generations, until Christ returns-second coming, and then the gathering of the people would be to Him.) That throne of David is still... established among the Western Christian Nations today, on earth, and that earthly throne belongs to Christ Jesus when He returns in our very near future!

3. From the Western Christian Nations, The Gospel went forth afterwards to other nations outside the West. Isaiah covers the prophecy of ambassadors going to the nations, and many have been added to Christ's Church (still happening).

4. God's Birthright Promises through Abraham to Israel (Jacob) down to Ephraim and Manasseh of blessings of great wealth (resources), controlling the gates of his enemies, as many children as the stars and sand of the sea; a ruler upon a throne; plenty of corn and wine; and Ephraim becoming "a multitude of nations", HAS BEEN FULFILLED FOR CENTURIES IN THE CHRISTIAN WEST, under Jesus Christ and The Gospel.


But we are now in the latter days when God foretold His people through His prophet Daniel that the power of the holy people would be scattered (Dan.12), in order to finish the prophecies He foretold for the very END of this world. Christ's enemies have been TRYING to destroy His Church off this earth for centuries, and after The Gospel went forth that attack has been mainly upon the Western Christian Nations of history and especially other believers on Christ Jesus in nations outside the West. But AMAZING...Christ's Church STILL is STANDING here on earth TODAY! The Jews will NEVER EVER be able to destroy it. Those false Jews who follow Lucifer will soon have a reckoning coming upon them from Christ Jesus de facto, in Person. It is not far off now. The degradations and infiltration of false Jews by their vain doctrines within the Christian Church today is not far off from being purged out also.

God has revealed this to His servants who listen to Him and stay in His Word through His Son Jesus Christ. To others, it... is... not... given. To those it is not given is because they don't listen to Him directly in His Word of Truth, but to men's traditions instead.
Veteran, my brother, you need to get beyond your prejudices. They are blinding you to the obvious. I am not under a veil, brother. I am a MESSIANIC Jew! I know that Yeshua` was/is/will be haMashiach Elohiym (the Messiah or Christ of God), ... BUT I also know what that means! It means that He is Anointed by God - Chosen by God - to be King, as well as Priest and Prophet and Judge! You can keep your opinion that I am under "old Pharisee teachings." Much of what I believe have not come from any Parush (Pharisee).

I only know one Parush personally, and I haven't seen him for a couple of years. Furthermore, they're not a bad lot; they just get a bum rap from those P'rushiym (Pharisees) with whom Yeshua` had to deal during His offer of the Kingdom. (A "Parush," by the way, is a "Separatist." He "separates" himself to the study of God's Word, particularly the Torah, and to the understanding of God's laws, commandments and ordnances. He was/is a scholar of God's Word.) Remember, Paul called himself "a Pharisee, a son of a Pharisee." He was ONE OF THEM, and he did not use the PAST TENSE! He could have been haughty about it, but chose not to be (Philippians 3:5). So, if you follow those teachings of Paul found in his epistles - his letters - to the various churches, then YOU TOO are under "old Pharisee teachings," just as much as I am!

In truth, much of what I believe has come from reading the Scriptures, whole books at a time. It has never made sense to me to pull out a verse here or there and camp on it to the exclusion of the rest. I read the whole book - in a single sitting, if possible - and let the author of the book speak to me. What is the author trying to say? What truth or truths is he trying to convey? What is his central theme? What thought or thoughts tie the whole book together? When you first start reading through a book this way and you come to a familiar passage or verse, it's hard not to fall back into what you've been taught it means. You've got to turn that off and see what the author is saying; why did HE write that passage or verse? You also have to understand the culture in which that person lived and the time period he lived. All of these factors and the problems and challenges he faced helped to frame his thoughts that were put down in writing.

If you are reading along and the passage of the book you are reading seems disjoint and sketchy, like the author was skipping all around and not making a coherent thought, then you are probably being influenced by past teachings ABOUT his book and not letting the author speak directly to you THROUGH his book. A good case in point is James chapter 5:

James 5:1-20
1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
KJV


If you don't know that the central theme is "righteousness," then you might conclude that Ya`aqov was jumping around all over the place from thought to thought, incoherent and disjoint. But, when you come to understand the central theme is "RIGHTEOUSNESS," then you can see how the various parts are tied together and discover WHY Ya`aqov wrote the way he did and what point he was trying to make. Furthermore, understanding that central theme can help you better understand what a particular verse is talking about, so you're not leaping to unwarranted conclusions about that verse.

For instance, it's not the "effectual, fervent prayer" that "availeth much"; it's such a prayer of a "RIGHTEOUS MAN" that "availeth much." Thus, "Eliyahu," or "Elias" in Greek, was just such a man! That's why he could pray for drought or rain and God would answer his prayers!

Now, about your history ...

1. You're mixing the tribes if you think that Britain was given the "Throne of David." They were not. They COULD not! Even if they are the descendants of Efrayim (the ten northern tribes of Isra'el), they were NEVER given David's throne since David was of the tribe of Y'hudah! David was a JEW! Perhaps the dynasty of the ten tribes which found their way to England tried to USURP the title, but that does not mean that they INHERITED it! To the contrary, Yeshua` Himself is the LAST ONE to be rightly called "the King of the Jews!" Read it again:

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV



Matthew 2:1-2
2 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
KJV


2. Yeshua` is the KING APPARENT! HE is the MESSIAH - haMashiach - the One God Anointed/Selected/Chose to be the King of Isra'el! His lineage in Matthew 1 PROVES that! God's Anointing of Him at His baptism by His Ruach haQodesh - His Holy Spirit - PROVES that! And while that generation rejected His offer of the Kingdom when it was "at hand" or "within their grasp," and although He took His offer of the Kingdom with Him when He ascended to His Father, IT IS STILL HIS! And, when He returns, He will offer it once again, this time as the victorious Hero of God's Rescue!

3 & 4. The "gospel" you are talking about is not the "gospel" of Yeshua` haMashiach. It's not the same message of good news that Yeshua` heralded! That message was that the KINGDOM was within their grasp! All they had to do was reach out and receive it! Instead, they slapped His offering hand away! What you are talking about is not the "gospel" but the justification of believers by God. And, while that might be A message of good news, particularly when it was offered to the world, it is NOT THE "gospel" as presented in prophecy!

Now, about the "Church": I don't deny that, externally, God has worked miracles to preserve for Himself a remnant of believers down through the centuries; however, INTERNALLY, God's original "ekkleesiai" - the "churches" - have been infiltrated time and time again by UNBELIEVERS who call themselves "Christians" (not Jews and Jewish traditions) who have changed the message of the churches and twisted their teachings, splitting their affiliations into the various denominations, and have generally so muddied the waters that one cannot see the truth any more! And, if they do manage to "purge the influence of the ORIGINAL ekkleesiai, the influence of the JEWISH ORIGINS OF THE CHURCHES," that will be the final death knell of the "Church!" They don't need LESS influence by Yeshua`s heritage; they need MORE! You're not talking about the "Church" getting better; you're talking about it getting WORSE! It's not naturally evolving; it's naturally DEVOLVING! It's just a result of informational thermodynamics - a law of entropy for information! If it's not improved upon by an outside source or Source, it will degrade into chaos!
 

veteran

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Retrobyter on April 29 said:

Shalom, veteran.


Veteran, my brother, you need to get beyond your prejudices. They are blinding you to the obvious. I am not under a veil, brother. I am a MESSIANIC Jew! I know that Yeshua` was/is/will be haMashiach Elohiym (the Messiah or Christ of God), ... BUT I also know what that means! It means that He is Anointed by God - Chosen by God - to be King, as well as Priest and Prophet and Judge! You can keep your opinion that I am under "old Pharisee teachings." Much of what I believe have not come from any Parush (Pharisee).
I have several friends that Messianic Jews, and they are not nearly as strongly influenced by Jewish religious traditions that you are. Those traditions I speak negatively about involve ideas I've already been over that really are part of the Jew's relgiion Judaism, and not Christianity. Many Gentile pastors have also succumbed to some of those false traditions, with phrases like Judeo-Christian, which is a paradoxial term since Judaism (or the Jew's religion as Apostle Paul labeled it) has nothing to do with Christianity, and instead is vehemently against Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ. So it's not me that needs to get rid of prejudices.



I only know one Parush personally, and I haven't seen him for a couple of years. Furthermore, they're not a bad lot; they just get a bum rap from those P'rushiym (Pharisees) with whom Yeshua` had to deal during His offer of the Kingdom. (A "Parush," by the way, is a "Separatist." He "separates" himself to the study of God's Word, particularly the Torah, and to the understanding of God's laws, commandments and ordnances. He was/is a scholar of God's Word.) Remember, Paul called himself "a Pharisee, a son of a Pharisee." He was ONE OF THEM, and he did not use the PAST TENSE! He could have been haughty about it, but chose not to be (Philippians 3:5). So, if you follow those teachings of Paul found in his epistles - his letters - to the various churches, then YOU TOO are under "old Pharisee teachings," just as much as I am!
Right there is a prime example of what I've been talking about. Just because Apostle Paul had been a member of the Pharisees and trained under probably the best Hebrew Old Testament scholar of his day, Gamaliel, that in your view assigns Pharisee teaching to what Apostle Paul wrote in his Epistles to the Body of Christ. Your idea about Apostle Paul is vanity, for he showed how he left... those old traditions of the Pharisees that he had once belonged to (Gal.1:13-14). And proof that he left their vain traditions and instead became part of the foundation of Christ's Church in The Gospel is how those same... Pharisees sought to murder him for turning to Christ Jesus!

This is where the vail is upon you, because you've failed to recognize there was a difference between the doctrines of the Pharisees and the true teachings of The LORD through Moses and the prophets. Being a scholar of The Old Testament like Apostle Paul was is different than being a Pharisee with following the Pharisee's and scribe's traditions that were created apart from God's Word. Apostle Paul spent a lot of time in his Epistles revealing that difference too! Likewise did Christ Jesus at His first coming.

Does this mean Paul's OT scholarship became invalid? No way! Instead, it allowed The LORD to show Paul directly the fulfillment of The Gospel which the OT prophets spoke of and sought for. And that while the scribes and Pharisees rejected all that in favor of setting up their own... traditions from men. Christ's crucifixion was written of by the Old Testament prophets, but the Jewish scribes, priests, and Pharisees rejected that part of the Old Testament prophets, including what Moses foretold of Christ. The same thing is done today in some so-called Christian groups with men's doctrines too, so Judaism isn't alone in that working by the false crept in unawares.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.
veteran said:
veteran, on 29 Apr 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:





I have several friends that [are] Messianic Jews, and they are not nearly as strongly influenced by Jewish religious traditions that you are. Those traditions I speak negatively about involve ideas I've already been over that really are part of the Jew's relgiion Judaism, and not Christianity. Many Gentile pastors have also succumbed to some of those false traditions, with phrases like Judeo-Christian, which is a paradoxial term since Judaism (or the Jew's religion as Apostle Paul labeled it) has nothing to do with Christianity, and instead is vehemently against Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ. So it's not me that needs to get rid of prejudices.




Right there is a prime example of what I've been talking about. Just because Apostle Paul had been a member of the Pharisees and trained under probably the best Hebrew Old Testament scholar of his day, Gamaliel, that in your view assigns Pharisee teaching to what Apostle Paul wrote in his Epistles to the Body of Christ. Your idea about Apostle Paul is vanity, for he showed how he left... those old traditions of the Pharisees that he had once belonged to (Gal.1:13-14). And proof that he left their vain traditions and instead became part of the foundation of Christ's Church in The Gospel is how those same... Pharisees sought to murder him for turning to Christ Jesus!

This is where the vail is upon you, because you've failed to recognize there was a difference between the doctrines of the Pharisees and the true teachings of The LORD through Moses and the prophets. Being a scholar of The Old Testament like Apostle Paul was is different than being a Pharisee with following the Pharisee's and scribe's traditions that were created apart from God's Word. Apostle Paul spent a lot of time in his Epistles revealing that difference too! Likewise did Christ Jesus at His first coming.

Does this mean Paul's OT scholarship became invalid? No way! Instead, it allowed The LORD to show Paul directly the fulfillment of The Gospel which the OT prophets spoke of and sought for. And that while the scribes and Pharisees rejected all that in favor of setting up their own... traditions from men. Christ's crucifixion was written of by the Old Testament prophets, but the Jewish scribes, priests, and Pharisees rejected that part of the Old Testament prophets, including what Moses foretold of Christ. The same thing is done today in some so-called Christian groups with men's doctrines too, so Judaism isn't alone in that working by the false crept in unawares.
First, I am not "strongly influenced by Jewish religious traditions." I am strongly influenced by the JEW Yeshua` haMashiach, or as you might say, "Jesus the Christ."

Second, you wouldn't even RECOGNIZE the original Christianity of the first century! Have you ever seen the Messianic Seal of the first century? It's the same seal we use today, a combination of a fish (head down) below, a menorah above, and the base of the menorah intersects with the tail of the fish to form the "shield of David" ("Magen Daveed"), wrongly called the "star of David."

Thirdly, there's nothing wrong with the phrase "Judeo-Christian," which I have heard OUTSIDE of Jewish circles from the CHRISTIAN community since I was a kid! There's nothing "paradoxical" about the term, except in YOUR mind. YOU are simply denying the link.

The "Jews' religion," as you call it, started at Sinai and has continued consistently throughout the millennia. The "Old Testament," as you call it, was and IS the Jewish Holy Scriptures which were built based on the writings of the Torah of God (what is called "the Pentateuch" or "the Law" by many Christians), penned with Mosheh's (Moses') hand, and to which were added the histories of God's hand working in the lives of Isra'elis down through the years, and the praises and the prophecies of God. It is simply YOUR OPINION that Christianity has nothing to do with "the Jews' religion." It certainly wasn't PAUL'S opinion:

Acts 26:1-23
1 Then Agrippa said to Paul, "You have permission to speak for yourself."

So Paul motioned with his hand and began his defense: 2 "King Agrippa, I consider myself fortunate to stand before you today as I make my defense against all the accusations of the Jews, 3 and especially so because you are well acquainted with all the Jewish customs and controversies. Therefore, I beg you to listen to me patiently.


4 "The Jews all know the way I have lived ever since I was a child, from the beginning of my life in my own country, and also in Jerusalem. 5 They have known me for a long time and can testify, if they are willing, that according to the strictest sect of our religion, I lived as a Pharisee. 6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our fathers that I am on trial today. 7 This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. O king, it is because of this hope that the Jews are accusing me. 8 Why should any of you consider it incredible that God raises the dead?

9 "I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the saints in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. 11 Many a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. In my obsession against them, I even went to foreign cities to persecute them.

12 "On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus (Damassek in what is now called Syria) with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven (the sky), brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,

'Saul, Saul (Hebrew/Aramaic "Sha`uwl"), why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'

15 "Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord (Greek "kurios" = Hebrew/Aramaic "adown" = English "master/sir")?'

"'I am Jesus (Greek "Ieesous" = Hebrew/Aramaic "Yeshua`"), whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16 'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

19 "So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven (the sky). 20 First to those in Damascus (Damessek), then to those in Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) and in all Judea (Y'hudah), and to the Gentiles (Goyim) also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. 21 That is why the Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me. 22 But I have had God's help to this very day, and so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the Gentiles."
NIV


Therefore, since it IS YOUR OPINION that stands out from the Scriptures, it certainly IS you who needs to get rid of prejudices!

There is ONE Greek word (used twice in the NT, both listed in the passage below) that was translated as the "Jews' religion" in the KJV. It's the word "Ioudaismoo," which is a form of "Ioudaismos," the noun form of "Ioudaizoo," meaning to "Judah-ize" people, or to proselytize people to the lifestyle, mannerisms, and behaviors of Judaea.

Galatians 1:11-18
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
KJV


Paul was the one who used to do this proselytizing, and it is to THAT process he then objected after meeting the Messiah, not to what he had studied!

Quit making things up!
 

Polt

New Member
Feb 5, 2013
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Retrobyter said:
First, I am not "strongly influenced by Jewish religious traditions." I am strongly influenced by the JEW Yeshua` haMashiach, or as you might say, "Jesus the Christ."

Second, you wouldn't even RECOGNIZE the original Christianity of the first century! Have you ever seen the Messianic Seal of the first century? It's the same seal we use today, a combination of a fish (head down) below, a menorah above, and the base of the menorah intersects with the tail of the fish to form the "shield of David" ("Magen Daveed"), wrongly called the "star of David."
First, whatever kind of Jew Jesus was is a totally different kind of Jew than you are.

Second, it's inconceivable that first century Christians or Jews would have used a six-pointed star as a religious symbol.