Matthew 24:30 may have a significant mistranslation

[CTK]

I basically believe the very same thing. Only “at the end of time“ means at the end of the mosaic or old covenant time for me.

Would you mind sharing your thoughts on this... I am not sure I have heard or read this interpretation before?

 

[3 Resurrections]

So, NO, that change is NOT just for dead believers, but also the living. We (those in Christ, whether dead or alive) will ALL be changed at the last trumpet when Jesus comes again.

When that "change" was to be brought about, Paul wrote that the saying would come to pass that "DEATH is swallowed up in victory. The GRAVE would have no victory over those who were sleeping and who would come out of that grave. There is nothing at all in this 1 Cor. 15 context which describes a translation-type change for the living who have never died yet. You are adding to the Scripture when you tack on the expectation of a translation of the living at Christ's return. Unfortunately, it is only the traditional man-made expectation which you think is gospel truth.

There is no resurrection mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:24. That is a FACT.

1 Cor. 15:24 describes the TIMING for the last of the chronological "order" of bodily resurrections which were spoken about in 1 Cor. 15:20-23. Too bad for you that you can't see it. Perhaps others can.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When that "change" was to be brought about, Paul wrote that the saying would come to pass that "DEATH is swallowed up in victory. The GRAVE would have no victory over those who were sleeping and who would come out of that grave. There is nothing at all in this 1 Cor. 15 context which describes a translation-type change for the living who have never died yet. You are adding to the Scripture when you tack on the expectation of a translation of the living at Christ's return. Unfortunately, it is only the traditional man-made expectation which you think is gospel truth.

Nonsense. It's a FACT that there will be some who are alive and remain until the second coming of Christ, as Paul indicated in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. Why would those people need to die at that point? Do you think Jesus will kill them and then resurrect them? LOL. That's ludicrous. They will not die, they will be changed from having natural, mortal bodies to spiritual, immortal bodies along with the resurrected dead in Christ.

1 Cor. 15:24 describes the TIMING for the last of the chronological "order" of bodily resurrections which were spoken about in 1 Cor. 15:20-23. Too bad for you that you can't see it. Perhaps others can.

I would assume that very few can imagine it the way you do in your imagination. It's not there in 1 Corinthians 15:24. No resurrection mentioned there at all. That is a fact.

 

[David in NJ]

Keep going. You missed printing out the third resurrection event on the list that Paul gave in 1 Cor. 15:24. ALL that were in Christ certainly would be made alive by resurrection, but not simultaneously. They would be raised in ranked chronological order by participating in one of three resurrection events. One for only the saints in AD 33 with Christ at Passover (and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints). The next resurrection was in AD 70 on that year's Pentecost day. And the one in our future at "the end", when Christ delivers up the last group of resurrected ones to God, and rids this world of all human evil remaining will take place during the time the Feast of Tabernacles once was celebrated.

PRAY - Read the Gospel of John - PRAY - Read Acts - PRAY - Read 1 Corinthians - PRAY - Read Revelation - PRAY

 

[David in NJ]

For what it is worth, I believe the 3.5 years takes place at the end of time - at its completion, we will see the return of the Messiah. If you (or others) would like to receive a free copy of my commentary on Daniel, please PM me.

OK - will do

 

[Aunty Jane]

It’s fascinating to see all these interpretations of the same Scripture.....yet there can only be one truth.

Shouldn’t we all just follow the Bible’s simple narrative? It’s one book, with one author, and one story, told through the writings of many secretaries.

The timeline of events is not complicated unless interpretation is flawed and attempts are made to force meaning into Scripture that was never there.

What do we know for certain?

We know that after the creation of sinless Adam and his wife, a spirit son of God, who was “on duty” in the garden, (Ezekiel 28:13-17) began to envy the worship that these humans would give to God. He got carried away with his own magnificence and plotted a way to separate them from their Creator.....and gain their worship and obedience for himself.....he tempted the woman to bait the man by lying about the penalty and telling her that they “surely would not die”.......and bingo!...he was successful. But did he underestimate God’s response?

What was the first thing God did? He forced them to confess, even though he knew exactly what they had done. (Gen 3:1-15) Indeed...”Who told them that they were naked”.....and “What had they done?”

They each blamed someone else for their own choices, seeking an excuse, but God would not accept any, so he evicted the ungrateful pair from the garden, cursed the ground upon which they would now have to work for their own sustenance, and made sure that no access to “the tree of life” was thereafter possible. (Gen 3:22-24)

Jehovah handed them over to the god they had chosen to obey. (Luke 4:5-7) Why?.....to prove that free will was not a mistake, and that all choices have consequences.....and excuses will never justify them.

So right from the beginning we have the root of all of man’s problems.....disobedience, (sin) that caused separation from God. Thankfully God had a solution, but it was a long term scenario that would test the human race as well as God’s angelic sons, who were now all caught up together in this turn of events.

God also lovingly appointed a “mediator” so that communication between fallen mankind and himself could be maintained. (1 Tim 2:5-6) The rescue mission was still a long way off because God had a timeline already mapped out as to how it would all come full circle.

We see how God would solve the problems of abuse of free will, and their resulting consequences...masterfully.

He spoke of the rescuer in Genesis, right from the outset...in a prophesy that baffled his worshippers for centuries....who were the players in this prophesy of Genesis 3:15? Not until the rescuer came was that revealed. This was the ultimate battle between God and the devil for the worship of the human race. Two “seeds” in the world who would have enmity between them.

In a nutshell....what was lost in Genesis was to be restored in Revelation....everything in between is pictorial of how God would have his truth told in spite of handing rulership of the world over to his adversary. (1 John 5:19)

Since it is God who “draws” his worshippers to the true teachings of his precious son, (John 6:44; 65) all of the arguing in the Christian world as to who is teaching the truth and who is not, is inconsequential....why? Because his true worshippers are not part of that rabble. In this time of the end, they are completely separate.

In his prophesy about the “wheat” and the “weeds”, Jesus foretold that at the time of his judgment, the “weeds” would be harvested along with the “wheat”, but then separated out and destroyed. Only when the weeds are gone completely can the “wheat” be put into the master’s storehouse. (Matt 13: 24-30: 36-42)

This is pictorial of what is looming, just ahead of us.....a “harvest” that will see false worship and all who practice and support it, will be taken away forever, never to interfere in God’s purpose for this earth, and redeemed mankind upon it, ever again.

All that was lost for the human race at the beginning will be restored, as God’s original purpose is given back to those who have proven faithful under test. (Matt 23:1; Isa 55:11) What God starts, he finishes.

God has set aside a thousand years for everything to be restored, and that includes the earth itself, now groaning under the weight of man’s pathetic mismanagement of his own affairs. A new and righteous government...”the kingdom of God” will take over Earth’s affairs. Every vestige of satan’s Influence will be gone, allowing even the dead to be raised and given an opportunity to get to know the true God and his appointed King. (John 5:28-29; Rev 21:2-4)

The big picture is logical and uncomplicated....if you allow Scripture to speak for itself.

 

[CTK]

The big picture is logical and uncomplicated....if you allow Scripture to speak for itself.

Loved what your said!!!!

For what it is worth.... here is a cut / paste from my commentary on Daniel. This a a partial narrative found in the 9:24 discssion.


Daniel 9:24 doesn’t just speak of righteousness—it speaks of everlasting righteousness. This is not a temporary covering or symbolic gesture. It is the full restoration of what was lost in Eden. It is the opening of the way back to the presence of God—not through law, not through ceremony, but through faith in the One who fulfilled both. Yet we must remember that this everlasting righteousness has come in two stages:

Already – It is available now to all who believe. Through the Holy Spirit, believers are being transformed into the likeness of Christ, growing in righteousness daily.​

​

Not Yet – The final and complete manifestation of this righteousness awaits His return, when sin and death will be fully destroyed, and we will be made perfect in His presence.​

Until then, believers walk in a righteousness that is both declared and developing. We are justified by faith, but we also grow in sanctification by the Spirit. Everlasting righteousness has already been brought in—but its fullness will be revealed when Christ comes again to restore all things.

In Genesis 2:7, we are given a clear and profound formula for how God created Adam as a living soul:

“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

This verse reveals two essential components in the creation of humanity:

A – Dust from the ground (the physical body)​

​

B – The breath of life (God’s Spirit)​

There are only two components involved in making Adam: the dust of the earth and the divine breath of God. Nothing else. It is a simple equation: A + B = C, where C represents the living soul. This soul is not a third, separate entity that exists independently of A or B. If either component is removed, C ceases to exist. The soul does not fly away to another realm or continue to live in another form—it simply no longer is. Adam was a living soul only because the Spirit of God was placed by God into the dust.

Importantly, the “breath” that God breathed into Adam was not mere air or oxygen to jump-start a heartbeat. It was God’s Spirit, His righteousness, His holiness, His very presence. This divine union is what set humanity apart from the rest of creation. It reflected God's image and likeness—not in biology, but in spiritual design and relational capacity. God placed His holiness within Adam.

But when Adam disobeyed and sin entered the world, the consequence was not immediate physical death—but spiritual death. Adam was cast out of the Garden, not only physically removed from Eden but separated from God’s presence. The Spirit that once dwelled in him returned to its source, for there is no other place that can contain God’s holiness but God Himself. Adam had no holiness of his own—it was God's righteousness within him, and when that Spirit departed, he was left spiritually barren. This is the core of God’s plan of salvation: How will He place His righteousness—His Spirit—back into us so we can once again dwell in His presence?

Sin caused the divine-human relationship to fracture. Humanity lost its standing as “living souls” and became simply “living beings”—animated by breath, but lacking the indwelling Spirit of God. Every person born after Adam—born outside the Garden—is born into this condition: physically alive, but spiritually empty.

This loss of spiritual life is precisely what happened to the Jews who rejected their Messiah. When they crucified Jesus, they rejected the One who came to restore the Spirit within them. In response, God allowed desolation to fall—not just upon their city or Temple—but upon their spiritual relationship with Him. For 2,000 years (the time of the Gentiles), this estrangement has remained in place. Yet God’s mercy did not end there. His plan of salvation, fulfilled in Jesus Christ, was always about restoring what was lost in Eden. Through Jesus’ sacrificial death and resurrection, He made a way for us to be reconciled to God. Through faith in Christ, we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, who now dwells within us and empowers us to live in righteousness—not by our strength, but by His.

The restoration of God's righteousness and Spirit within us is the only way to once again become a living soul—a being in true communion with God. This is not just a future promise but a present reality for every believer. And one day, when Christ returns, the full restoration will be complete: no longer just the Spirit dwelling in us, but we will dwell with Him—face to face, just as it was in Eden.

Consequently, we do not have His Spirit, His holiness, or His righteousness within us. There is nothing innate in us—nothing spiritual—that continues on after we die. Our body returns to the dust from which it came, and without the Spirit of God, we cease to be living souls. This is the tragic result of sin: spiritual separation from the Giver of life. In response, God established the Torah and its sacrificial system as a temporary measure of reconciliation between Himself and His people. These rituals were not an end in themselves, but a foreshadowing of the ultimate sacrifice—the one that Jesus would offer on the cross. His death brought about a once-and-for-all atonement, offering everlasting forgiveness and spiritual restoration to all who believe. Through the gift of the Holy Spirit, believers receive not only the assurance of God's presence but also the power to live transformed lives.

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was God's symbolic act of breathing His Spirit back into humanity—the first step in restoring what was lost in Eden. It was the spiritual re-creation of man, already begun but not yet completed.

This restoration must happen within us before we can dwell in God’s presence again. But the full consummation of this work—our complete return to holiness—will not take place until the second coming of Christ. God’s entire plan of salvation is aimed at one goal: to restore each person to the very state in which He originally created Adam—filled with His Spirit, clothed in His righteousness, and able to walk with Him once more.

Just before Jesus died, He made a deeply meaningful statement. In Luke 23:46, we read:

"And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, ‘Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.’ Having said this, He breathed His last."

This final cry echoed David’s prayer in Psalm 31:5 and revealed a profound truth: Jesus had to release the Holy Spirit back to the Father. Having taken upon Himself the sin of the world, He could no longer retain the indwelling Spirit. Sin and the Holy Spirit cannot coexist. That Spirit, which had been given to Him at His baptism, returned to the Father at the cross. Yet on the day of His resurrection, the Spirit was restored to Him—symbolizing the victory of righteousness over death and sin. This act also served as a prophetic promise: at His second coming, God will once again breathe His Spirit fully into humanity, completing the restoration of His people. When He looks upon the redeemed at the end, He will not see sin—but rather His own righteousness covering them. As Isaiah declared in Isaiah 61:10:

"I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels."

Righteousness or holiness cannot be attained on this side of heaven. No act of human kindness, no moral effort, no ritual obedience can reach the height of God's standard.

Righteousness belongs solely to God, the lawgiver, and is revealed through His laws. If He chooses to impart His righteousness to us, it remains His righteousness, not ours—a gift, not a reward. No one can justify themselves before God by their own works. As Isaiah reminds us in Isaiah 64:6:

"But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are like filthy rags; we all fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

Only the righteousness of Christ, not our own, will ever enter His kingdom. Salvation is not about becoming better people—it is about becoming new people, reborn by the Spirit and clothed in the holiness that only God can give.

Only the righteousness of Christ (not our own)

will enter His kingdom.​

 

[Aunty Jane]

For what it is worth.... here is a cut / paste from my commentary on Daniel. This a a partial narrative found in the 9:24 discssion.

We have studied Daniel’s prophesies in depth and perhaps come up with a slightly different end of story that encompasses the follow up to Daniel...which is mirrored in the Revelation, also written about the “Lord’s Day”.

Daniel was writing about the rise and fall of future kingdoms who all had dealings with God’s people......from his day until the distant future, as even the coming of the Messiah was still some 500 years away.

This is world history written in advance as it leads up to an absorbing climax in showing what comes to pass “in the final part of the days.” Like Nebuchadnezzar, Babylon’s proud King, the nations have to learn the hard way “that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind” and that finally he gives it to one “like a son of man,” the Messiah and Leader, Christ Jesus.

Daniel was told to seal up his book until “the time of the end” because nothing would be fully understood until then....
“As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.”......Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10  Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.” (Daniel 12: 4, 9-10)

There was to be a divide in this time period between the wicked and those who cleanse themselves of such wickedness by means of Scriptural truth.....the wicked will not understand anything, no matter how much you explain it. They refuse the refinement and stick to the comfortable old slippers that they prefer to wear because new ones can cause blisters and some time to break in....they simply don’t want to change....it’s too uncomfortable.

The soul does not fly away to another realm or continue to live in another form—it simply no longer is. Adam was a living soul only because the Spirit of God was placed by God into the dust.

Importantly, the “breath” that God breathed into Adam was not mere air or oxygen to jump-start a heartbeat. It was God’s Spirit, His righteousness, His holiness, His very presence. This divine union is what set humanity apart from the rest of creation. It reflected God's image and likeness—not in biology, but in spiritual design and relational capacity. God placed His holiness within Adam.

We have a slightly different take on that part of Scripture. Whilst agreeing that the soul is the man himself which cannot live separately from the body, we see “the breath” as the the spirit of life that is in all living things....not just humans.

No one really knows what “life” is, or how to define it scientifically....but they know that all living things require oxygen in an ongoing way....and as a perfect recycling process, we see that breathing creatures exhale carbon dioxide and inhale oxygen.....trees exhale oxygen and take up carbon dioxide.....the exchange was a permanent supply for both in perpetuation. A wonderfully designed process....like the water cycle, it guarantees a perpetual supply of fresh water for land dwelling animals.

Even a blade of grass is living.....and science knows that it cannot produce even a living blade of grass....no life can come from non-living matter.....life only comes from life, so all life has one source.....and that is the Creator. Science is hard pressed to deny that fact.

Adam “became” a soul when God breathed oxygen into his lungs.....a process that those in the animal Kingdom too, experience at birth.

Solomon lamented the fact that human souls die the same way that animals souls do...they stop breathing.

“I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19  for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20  All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.” (Eccl 3:18-20)

Solomon knew that this didn’t add up.....we alone were made in God’s image and so, were naturally superior.

He said that at death......“Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.” This verse is often used to promote immortality of the soul, but that is not what it means.
The “spirit” that returns to God is the animating spirit that causes a living soul to breathe again. In the resurrection, which is what Jesus promoted and demonstrated, life will be returned to the soul when breathing is reestablished. The soul/person, will live again. God created life and only God by his spirit, can give it back.

The breath of life is a miracle all by itself! And seen in nature every single day! From the smallest living thing, to the largest.
We need to appreciate it for the gift it is, not just seeing it as something to jump-start the heart....but not as something excessively spiritual either, when context does not promote that application.

 

[CTK]

We have studied Daniel’s prophesies in depth and perhaps come up with a slightly different end of story that encompasses the follow up to Daniel...which is mirrored in the Revelation, also written about the “Lord’s Day”.

Daniel was writing about the rise and fall of future kingdoms who all had dealings with God’s people......from his day until the distant future, as even the coming if the Messiah was still some 500 years away.

This is world history written in advance as it leads up to an absorbing climax in showing what comes to pass “in the final part of the days.” Like Nebuchadnezzar, Babylon’s proud King, the nations have to learn the hard way “that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind” and that finally he gives it to one “like a son of man,” the Messiah and Leader, Christ Jesus.

Daniel was told to seal up his book until “the time of the end” because nothing would be fully understood until then....
“As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about,* and the true knowledge will become abundant.”......Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10  Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.” (Daniel 12: 4, 9-10)

There was to be a divide in this time period between the wicked and those who cleanse themselves of such wickedness by means of Scriptural truth.....the wicked will not understand anything, no matter how much you explain it. They refuse the refinement and stick to the comfortable old slippers that they prefer to wear because new ones can cause blisters and some time to break in....they simply don’t want to change....it’s too uncomfortable.


We have a slightly different take on that part of Scripture. Whilst agreeing that the soul is the man himself which cannot live separately from the body, we see “the breath” as the the spirit of life that is in all living things....not just humans.

No one really knows what “life” is, or how to define is scientifically....but they know that all living things require oxygen in an ongoing way....and as a perfect recycling process, we see that breathing creatures exhale carbon dioxide and inhale oxygen.....trees exhale oxygen and take up carbon dioxide.....the exchange was a permanent supply for both in perpetuation. A wonderfully designed process....like the water cycle, it guarantees a perpetual supply of fresh water for land dwelling animals.

Even a blade of grass is living.....and science knows that it cannot produce even a living blade of grass....no life can come from non-living matter.....life only comes from life, so all life has one source.....and that is the Creator. Science is hard pressed to deny that fact.

Adam “became” a soul when God breathed oxygen into his lungs.....a process that those in the animal Kingdom too, experience at birth.

Solomon lamented the fact that human souls die the same way that animals souls do...they stop breathing.

“I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19  for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20  All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.” (Eccl 3:18-20)

Solomon knew that this didn’t add up.....we alone were made in God’s image and so, were naturally superior.

He said that at death......“Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.” This verse is often used to promote immortality of the soul, but that is not what it means.
The “spirit” that returns to God is the animating spirit that causes a living soul to breathe again. In the resurrection, which is what Jesus promoted and demonstrated, life will be returned to the soul when breathing is reestablished. The soul/person, will live again. God created it and only God by his spirit, can give it back.

The breath of life is a miracle all by itself! And seen in nature every single day! From the smallest living thing, to the largest.
We need to appreciate it for the gift it is, not just seeing it as something to jump-start the heart....but not as something excessively spiritual either, when context does not promote that application.

Beautiful writer!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Beautiful writer!

Thank you....I had great teachers.....the Bible secretaries....all taught by the greatest teacher in existence...

 

[HealthyShape]

A question for you (and others): Why would Christ warn His disciples to watch for the AOD of "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" so that they could immediately flee for the mountains to avoid the "great tribulation" days? Christ was going to return "Immediately after the tribulation of those days". Why was it necessary for the believers to flee from Judea and Jerusalem if the living believers were merely to be caught up to heaven with the returning Christ? It wouldn't have mattered what location they were in if the living were going to be raptured along with the resurrected saints. They would have been "caught up" to heaven anyway, regardless of where they happened to be located on earth, so there would have been no need to flee for the mountains.

First surrounding of Jerusalem by armies since the Olivet Discourse happened in 66 AD by Cestius Galus. Those who stayed in Judea/Jerusalem needed to go through the Great Tribulation that happened after that.

 

[ProDeo]

The literal thousand-years millennium is quite another subject. It is ancient history, and came to an end with the "first resurrection" in AD 33.

So in your opinion the reign of Christ on Earth lasted from 967 BC till AD 33 ?

967 BC is about the time of King David.

Odd.........

John already proved this. The "great city... where our Lord was crucified" in Rev. 11:8 is the same "that great city" Mystery Babylon in Rev. 17:18.

Not so.

Rev 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

Jerusalem is called "Sodom and Egypt", "Babylon the Great" is in Rev 14,16,17,18 and is not Jerusalem. "Babylon the Great" is Rome, it has a harbor, it has 7 hills, Jerusalem has no harbor, and neither Rome or Jerusalem were destroyed and thrown in the sea. It's future.

 

[ProDeo]

Well, that’s easy:

and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. (Rev 11:8)

Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem.

There is no "Babylon the great" in Rev 11.

 

[HealthyShape]

and neither Rome or Jerusalem were destroyed and thrown in the sea. It's future.

The sea in the apocalyptic language represents outside nations, IMO.

Interestingly, both Jerusalem and Rome were destroyed, burnt, plundered and "thrown" into the sea of invaders from outside nations. In the past. Sure, it can happen over and over again, technically. But the prophecy as such can be fulfilled, already.

 

[kdx]

There is no "Babylon the great" in Rev 11.

Oh no, sorry I misread. But the great city in Revelation 11 is definitely Jerusalem.

 

[3 Resurrections]

So in your opinion the reign of Christ on Earth lasted from 967 BC till AD 33 ?

967 BC is about the time of King David.

Odd.........

Not odd at all. Solomon's temple foundation stone was laid down in 968 / 967 BC (depending on your source). This comprised a literal thousand years of a physical temple worship system sanctioned by God UNTIL Christ's resurrection-day ascension in AD 33 established Him as the true foundation stone of the spiritual temple not made with hands - the "chief cornerstone" that was rejected by the builders. Foundation stones are scattered all over the Scriptures, with God calling Himself "the Rock of Israel". Scripture is careful to record the actual date of each foundation stone being laid down, because they portrayed Christ's future fulfillment of that symbolism (Solomon's, Zerubbabel's, and finally Christ).

Between these literal thousand years of time, there was a surge in the ministry of the prophets, which God used to bind Satan's deception of the nations. The fame of Solomon's reign went abroad throughout the known world, which also aided in removing people's ignorance of the God of Israel. Satan's main tool of deception was always to keep people in ignorance of the One True God.

The Rev. 20 millennium was "finished", "expired", and was "fulfilled" at the "first resurrection" in AD 33. This millennium was not meant to be an earthly utopia. It was meant to be a precursor of Christ as the foundation stone with all of us as "living stones" built upon that foundation under the New Covenant launched in AD 33.

Jerusalem is called "Sodom and Egypt", "Babylon the Great" is in Rev 14,16,17,18 and is not Jerusalem. "Babylon the Great" is Rome, it has a harbor, it has 7 hills, Jerusalem has no harbor, and neither Rome or Jerusalem were destroyed and thrown in the sea. It's future.

Mystery Babylon was charged as being guilty of the blood of the prophets and the Apostles (Rev. 18:20). This is the same charge Christ accused old Jerusalem in Luke 13:34 and Matt. 23:34-37. Rome did not kill the prophets of old. Jerusalem was well known as killing those who foretold the coming of the Just One, just as the martyr Stephen testified. The "great city...where also our Lord was crucified" (aka old Jerusalem) is the same "great city" which was called Mystery Babylon.

And Jerusalem also has seven hills that she sat upon - long before seven-hilled Rome became known by that same title. And it wasn't either Rome or Jerusalem themselves that the angel threw into the sea in Rev. 18:21. It was a great stone like a millstone (there is that emphasis on stones again) that was cast into the sea as a symbol of how "that great city Babylon" would not be found anymore at all. God had finished with old Jerusalem and its physical temple worship system, and was showing this by the angel's symbolic action.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Not what the Bible says....and what the Bible says....is all that counts. Right?

After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.

True, though it does not tell us when these 500 witnesse saw Him at once; there is the likelyhood that this large group witnessed His ascension. Since He will return on like manner, will only eleven be present or masses in Jerusalem?

Matt 15:6-9...

Jesus had much critism, rebuke and even curses towards the Pharisees. They did not believe in Him. They were legalistic and thought salvation was merited by trying to keep the Law.
They mixed their traditions with the Law.
True Christians do not do this, because WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW. WE ARE UNDER GRACE.
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph. 2:8-9

Celebrating any event is not outside of God's Grace. You, a Jehovah Witness, are implying that modern traditional celebrations of birthdays
or holidays are in violation of God's Law. We are under Grace, and in obedience practicing the Law of Love. Jesus was not reprimanding the Pharisees for celebrating holidays/ feasts, which they had many. They honored God, were thankful and worshipped God during those feasts.
With everyday, whatever day you set aside as special ( and the word holiday is derived from "holy day", which simply means "set apart")
You JW's always have this hidden agenda, sneaking in those jabs against Christendom and trying clever cla destine ways to what, convert us to your JW Org? It won't happen. The truth is you fail as much when you knock on doors - scar Ely any fruit in your labor. After kver 100 years you only have 8+million. The Holy Spirit does not grow your church because particular key doctrines about the nature of Christ and the Holy Spirit are wrong. In 1900, there were 500 million Christians and now 2.7 billion --- THAT'S GROWTH. 1/3 will be saved, that is the narrow path not 1/900 as the JW's figure.
It was nice chatting, much better than a couple years ago - you've learned not to bash us as much.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It’s fascinating to see all these interpretations of the same Scripture.....yet there can only be one truth.

Shouldn’t we all just follow the Bible’s simple narrative? It’s one book, with one author, and one story, told through the writings of many secretaries.

The timeline of events is not complicated unless interpretation is flawed and attempts are made to force meaning into Scripture that was never there.

What do we know for certain?

We know that after the creation of sinless Adam and his wife, a spirit son of God, who was “on duty” in the garden, (Ezekiel 28:13-17) began to envy the worship that these humans would give to God. He got carried away with his own magnificence and plotted a way to separate them from their Creator.....and gain their worship and obedience for himself.....he tempted the woman to bait the man by lying about the penalty and telling her that they “surely would not die”.......and bingo!...he was successful. But did he underestimate God’s response?

What was the first thing God did? He forced them to confess, even though he knew exactly what they had done. (Gen 3:1-15) Indeed...”Who told them that they were naked”.....and “What had they done?”

They each blamed someone else for their own choices, seeking an excuse, but God would not accept any, so he evicted the ungrateful pair from the garden, cursed the ground upon which they would now have to work for their own sustenance, and made sure that no access to “the tree of life” was thereafter possible. (Gen 3:22-24)

Jehovah handed them over to the god they had chosen to obey. (Luke 4:5-7) Why?.....to prove that free will was not a mistake, and that all choices have consequences.....and excuses will never justify them.

So right from the beginning we have the root of all of man’s problems.....disobedience, (sin) that caused separation from God. Thankfully God had a solution, but it was a long term scenario that would test the human race as well as God’s angelic sons, who were now all caught up together in this turn of events.

God also lovingly appointed a “mediator” so that communication between fallen mankind and himself could be maintained. (1 Tim 2:5-6) The rescue mission was still a long way off because God had a timeline already mapped out as to how it would all come full circle.

We see how God would solve the problems of abuse of free will, and their resulting consequences...masterfully.

He spoke of the rescuer in Genesis, right from the outset...in a prophesy that baffled his worshippers for centuries....who were the players in this prophesy of Genesis 3:15? Not until the rescuer came was that revealed. This was the ultimate battle between God and the devil for the worship of the human race. Two “seeds” in the world who would have enmity between them.

In a nutshell....what was lost in Genesis was to be restored in Revelation....everything in between is pictorial of how God would have his truth told in spite of handing rulership of the world over to his adversary. (1 John 5:19)

Since it is God who “draws” his worshippers to the true teachings of his precious son, (John 6:44; 65) all of the arguing in the Christian world as to who is teaching the truth and who is not, is inconsequential....why? Because his true worshippers are not part of that rabble. In this time of the end, they are completely separate.

In his prophesy about the “wheat” and the “weeds”, Jesus foretold that at the time of his judgment, the “weeds” would be harvested along with the “wheat”, but then separated out and destroyed. Only when the weeds are gone completely can the “wheat” be put into the master’s storehouse. (Matt 13: 24-30: 36-42)

This is pictorial of what is looming, just ahead of us.....a “harvest” that will see false worship and all who practice and support it, will be taken away forever, never to interfere in God’s purpose for this earth, and redeemed mankind upon it, ever again.

All that was lost for the human race at the beginning will be restored, as God’s original purpose is given back to those who have proven faithful under test. (Matt 23:1; Isa 55:11) What God starts, he finishes.

God has set aside a thousand years for everything to be restored, and that includes the earth itself, now groaning under the weight of man’s pathetic mismanagement of his own affairs. A new and righteous government...”the kingdom of God” will take over Earth’s affairs. Every vestige of satan’s Influence will be gone, allowing even the dead to be raised and given an opportunity to get to know the true God and his appointed King. (John 5:28-29; Rev 21:2-4)

The big picture is logical and uncomplicated....if you allow Scripture to speak for itself.

True worshipers acknowledge that Jesus is God, unlike Jehovah's Witnesses. And true worshipers would never teach that the unsaved dead will be resurrected and get another chance at salvation, as Jehovah's Witnesses like you teach.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh no, sorry I misread. But the great city in Revelation 11 is definitely Jerusalem.

Why do you say that? Because it says the great city is where "our Lord was crucified"? Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem.

John 19:20 Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

The great city Babylon is not earthly Jerusalem, it is the spiritual opposite of the heavenly Jerusalem (the church).

 

[kdx]

Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem.

The text says he was crucified in a “city“. When it’s not Jerusalem, then what city is it? Was there a city more close than Jerusalem at the place where Jesus has been crucified? Outside the gate, or near the city, are then just more precise indications as to where exactly the crucifixion took place, in comparison with the real city (you know, where the people were living). I wouldn’t make too much of that.