Matthew 28:19 – Trinity corrupted verse

[Marymog]

There is no trinity. God is Spirit and his Spirit is holy. This is the attribute of God, not a 3rd being. Also, being united does not make 2 into 1.

Hi Wrangler,

I have always accepted the teaching of The Church that there is a Spirit separate from God and Jesus or what Christianity calls the Trinity.

When did the teaching that there was no Trinity begin?

Thank you in advance....Mary

 

[David in NJ]

David in NJ who denies Jesus own words. Why do you call Me good? There is NONE good, ONLY GOD.

Satan, the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through. (2 Cor 4:4)

You keep quoting Luke 18:19 but you have not answered the question that i asked you. Is Jesus good?

Jesus asked the young ruler - "Why do you call me good?"
And Jesus answered His own question - "There is none good,only God"
Did Jesus say He was not good?
or
Did Jesus say He was God?

 

[BroRando]

You keep quoting Luke 18:19 but you have not answered the question that i asked you. Is Jesus good?

Jesus asked the young ruler - "Why do you call me good?"
And Jesus answered His own question - "There is none good,only God"
Did Jesus say He was not good?
or
Did Jesus say He was God?

Neither and you know.

• Jesus said to him: “Why do you call ME good? Nobody is good except one, God.” (Mark 10:18)
• "the Father is Greater than I am." (John 14:28)
  
• “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.

 

[David in NJ]

Neither and you know.

• Jesus said to him: “Why do you call ME good? Nobody is good except one, God.” (Mark 10:18)
• "the Father is Greater than I am." (John 14:28)
  
• “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.

Jesus did not say or imply 'neither'.
Jesus asked the question: "Why do you call Me good?"
Jesus answered His own question: "No one is good but One, that is, God."

Your answer of 'neither' was not given and the Lord Jesus Christ did not allow that to be an option.

 

[keithr]

Since God said: There shall be no other gods before Me - How then can Jesus be an Angel or even a Divine Person since we are commanded: 'There is no other name under Heaven whereby we must be saved.

So are you now arguing that Jesus is not a divine person (and therefore is not God)? You really must be confused!

God anointed and appointed His son Jesus to be the saviour of mankind. That is why there is no other name than Jesus (Yeshua) by which we can be saved. God's appointed person for saving mankind is not a greater god than Yahweh; he is obeying God and doing His will.

And Jesus said this of Himself: Before Abraham I AM - 'which directly contradicts 'there shall be no other gods before Me.

Jesus saying that he existed before Abraham was born does not make Jesus a greater god than Yahweh. It does not "contracdict", or break the commandment to not have any other Gods above and in preference to Yahweh.

How can Jesus say: "so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him"

As you pointed out, quoting Acts 4:12, faith in and obedience to Jesus is the only way that we can be saved. To quote Jesus' full sentence, and a bit more (John 5:21-23):

"For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom he desires. For the Father judges no one, but he has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn’t honor the Son doesn’t honor the Father who sent him".​

Peter said (2 Peter 1:17), 'For he received from God the Father honor and glory when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased”'. So God honoured Jesus, and as our judge, and as somone who can give life (or not) to whomsoever he pleases, so therefore we should honour Jesus. If we don't honour Jesus then we are rejecting God's plan and His appointed person for saving us, so we would therefore also not be honouring God.

How can the Scriptures say: In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. This would be blasphemy since we all have read and know that Genesis1:1 says "In the beginning God"

Genesis 1:1 says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". John 1:1 says that the logos (Jesus) existed in the beginning (of God's creation), and that the logos (Jesus) was with God, and that the logos (Jesus) was a god (Greek word theos, meaning a mighty one, a god). As the Revised English Bible translates it, "and what God was, the Word was", i.e. they were both powerful spirit beings. Just because God existed before He started His creation (obviously) and Jesus also existed before that creation (obviously, because Jesus performed the creation at God's instruction - Colossians 1:16), that does not mean that Jesus is God - that is illogical. Your (and many other people's) confusion stems from the illogical translation "the Word was God".

Unless, Jesus is a United One with the Father and the Holy Spirit

Or unless, as the Scriptures repeatedly say, Jesus was God's only begotten son, his most beloved and firstborn son (see 2 Peter 1:17 quoted above).

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.
Exodus 3:14-16

You continue to misunderstand that (IMHO)!

Exodus 3:14) God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM,” and he said, “You shall tell the children of Israel this: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

So God initially says that Moses should tell the Israelites that "I am" (hayah, meaning to be, become, come to pass, exist) has sent me. Then he says:

(Exo 3:15) God said moreover to Moses, “You shall tell the children of Israel this, ‘Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations.

So rather than Moses just saying "Hayah has sent me", God tells Moses to explain who He is by saying "Yahweh, the god of your fathers" has sent me. So God says that His name should be Yahweh, not hayah (i.e. not 'I am'), and that Yahweh should be His name forever.

 

[keithr]

Jesus asked the question: "Why do you call Me good?"
Jesus answered His own question: "No one is good but One, that is, God."

Your answer of 'neither' was not given and the Lord Jesus Christ did not allow that to be an option.

I would say that Jesus is good, but Jesus is humble and therefore would not claim to be good. Jesus said, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you will find rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:29).

Matthew 19:17 (WEB): He said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

So Jesus was saying that only God should be called good, and that therefore the rich young man should not call Jesus good. He was clearly confirming that he was not God. As we know, he never claimed to be God, he claimed to be the son of God, e.g. John 10:36 - "I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’

 

[David in NJ]

So are you now arguing that Jesus is not a divine person (and therefore is not God)? You really must be confused!

God anointed and appointed His son Jesus to be the saviour of mankind. That is why there is no other name than Jesus (Yeshua) by which we can be saved. God's appointed person for saving mankind is not a greater god than Yahweh; he is obeying God and doing His will.


Jesus saying that he existed before Abraham was born does not make Jesus a greater god than Yahweh. It does not "contracdict", or break the commandment to not have any other Gods above and in preference to Yahweh.


As you pointed out, quoting Acts 4:12, faith in and obedience to Jesus is the only way that we can be saved. To quote Jesus' full sentence, and a bit more (John 5:21-23):

"For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom he desires. For the Father judges no one, but he has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn’t honor the Son doesn’t honor the Father who sent him".​

Peter said (2 Peter 1:17), 'For he received from God the Father honor and glory when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased”'. So God honoured Jesus, and as our judge, and as somone who can give life (or not) to whomsoever he pleases, so therefore we should honour Jesus. If we don't honour Jesus then we are rejecting God's plan and His appointed person for saving us, so we would therefore also not be honouring God.


Genesis 1:1 says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". John 1:1 says that the logos (Jesus) existed in the beginning (of God's creation), and that the logos (Jesus) was with God, and that the logos (Jesus) was a god (Greek word theos, meaning a mighty one, a god). As the Revised English Bible translates it, "and what God was, the Word was", i.e. they were both powerful spirit beings. Just because God existed before He started His creation (obviously) and Jesus also existed before that creation (obviously, because Jesus performed the creation at God's instruction - Colossians 1:16), that does not mean that Jesus is God - that is illogical. Your (and many other people's) confusion stems from the illogical translation "the Word was God".


Or unless, as the Scriptures repeatedly say, Jesus was God's only begotten son, his most beloved and firstborn son (see 2 Peter 1:17 quoted above).


You continue to misunderstand that (IMHO)!

Exodus 3:14) God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM,” and he said, “You shall tell the children of Israel this: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

So God initially says that Moses should tell the Israelites that "I am" (hayah, meaning to be, become, come to pass, exist) has sent me. Then he says:

(Exo 3:15) God said moreover to Moses, “You shall tell the children of Israel this, ‘Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations.

So rather than Moses just saying "Hayah has sent me", God tells Moses to explain who He is by saying "Yahweh, the god of your fathers" has sent me. So God says that His name should be Yahweh, not hayah, and that Yahweh should be His name forever.

Well you can read and quote scripture but you are unable to see the truth of Who Jesus IS, the IAM, as He declares Himself to be.
You will continue to fight against it because you are right in your own eyes.
I see by the Word who was God from eternity, whom the Father sent that I may see and receive His Holy Spirit.

 

[keithr]

I said Timothy was a pastoral letter. It was meant for pastors or leaders of The Church. You theory is that it is meant for everyone that reads/studies Scripture. That theory makes no sense. If your theory was true then who has the authority to reproof, correct and instruct in righteousness? Me? You? Martin Luther? Pope Francis? Everyone? Can you not see how you have misinterpreted that verse?

No, I can't see how I have misinterpreted it. The Scriptures are meant for everyone, and certainly all Christians, not just some elite group who want to tell others what they should and shouldn't believe.

 

[Wrangler]

See I take all these verses- and with these, antitheses, synthesis of ALL bible verse come up with what the Bible teaches.

No, you don’t. You start with your doctrine and attempt to support it by synthesizing SOME verses.

For instance, why is Jesus saying his Father is the only true God not good enough for you?

 

[keithr]

Here is your dilemma: The Catholic Church (or any church or any man) uses Scripture to interpret Scripture on what is necessary for a valid baptism and comes up with a doctrine based on their interpretation. The Lutherans (or any church or any man) use Scripture to interpret Scripture and come up with a different doctrine on what is necessary for a valid baptism. Which one used Scripture to properly interpret Scripture?

That's for you to decide, by doing your own Bible study.

In Acts 17 (MKJV):

10) And the brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. They, when they arrived, went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11) And these were more noble than those of Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind and searched the Scriptures daily to see if those things were so.
12) Therefore many of them believed, and quite a few of honorable Greek women and men.​

I don't think that means that just the leaders in the synagogue searched the Scriptures (although not everyone had their own personal copies like we do today), but I would guess that groups of people (men!) searched together.

 

[keithr]

When did the teaching that there was no Trinity begin?

As soon as men made it up the Trinity! There was opposition to it for a long time.

 

[David in NJ]

No, I can't see how I have misinterpreted it. The Scriptures are meant for everyone, and certainly all Christians, not just some elite group who want to tell others what they should and shouldn't believe.

You reject Jesus who is Yehovah - The scriptures do not lie
Jesus says this of Himself and who He is. “Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone."

For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior
I, yes I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake and remembers your sins no more. Isaiah 43

When Jesus saw their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.” 21But the scribes and Pharisees began thinking to themselves, “Who is this man who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Luke 5:20-21

There is no other Name given under heaven whereby we MUST be saved.

 

[David in NJ]

As soon as men made it up the Trinity! There was opposition to it for a long time.

Yes, satan, religion and unbelievers will always fight against the truth - especially when it exposes their error.

 

[David in NJ]

That's for you to decide, by doing your own Bible study.

In Acts 17 (MKJV):

10) And the brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. They, when they arrived, went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11) And these were more noble than those of Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind and searched the Scriptures daily to see if those things were so.
12) Therefore many of them believed, and quite a few of honorable Greek women and men.​

I don't think that means that just the leaders in the synagogue searched the Scriptures (although not everyone had their own personal copies like we do today), but I would guess that groups of people (men!) searched together.

But you are not acting as the Bereans - therefore you are not noble to God

 

[keithr]

Well you can read and quote scripture but you are unable to see the truth of Who Jesus IS, the IAM, as He declares Himself to be.
You will continue to fight against it because you are right in your own eyes.

I will continue to disbelieve the Trinity while nobody is able to reasonably and logically defend the man-made doctrine, and because there is so much evidence contrary to the Trinity doctrine in the Bible.

Isaiah 1:18) “Come now, and let’s reason together,” says Yahweh: ...

 

[David in NJ]

I will continue to disbelieve the Trinity while nobody is able to reasonably and logically defend the man-made doctrine, and because there is so much evidence contrary to the Trinity doctrine in the Bible.

Isaiah 1:18) “Come now, and let’s reason together,” says Yahweh: ...

You refuse to use reason that comes from God through His word - It is a submission unto God - you have yet to get there for understanding.
This is God's commandment FOREVER Exodus 3:14-16 = Elohim Abraham + Elohim Isaac + Elohim Jacob
Abraham = Father
Isaac = Son
Jacob = Holy Spirit

 

[keithr]

But you are not acting as the Bereans

I believe I have been acting like the Bereans. I have spent many, many hours searching the Bible to see if the Trinity doctrine is correct, and I have concluded that it is not correct.

Luke (in Acts 17) commends the Bereans for not just believing what others told them, but instead they checked that it was verified by the Bible first. That is what I have done, and do. In the case of the Trinity the Bible doesn't support it. Remember the original topic of this thread? It was about more evidence against the Trinity doctrine, showing how unscrupulous men have corrupted the Bible in an effort to push their erroneous beliefs upon others. Jude 1:3 tells us to contend earnestly for the faith which was taught to the saints during the establishment of the church, and therefore to fight against all errors and changes that arise later that are not in harmony with the Scriptures.

 

[keithr]

Abraham = Father
Isaac = Son
Jacob = Holy Spirit

Where do you get that from? And what does it mean or prove?

 

[David in NJ]

Where do you get that from? And what does it mean or prove?

Dear keither, I am not against you.
Are you my brother in Christ - trusting in His Death and shed Blood alone for forgiveness of sins?

 

[keithr]

Are you my brother in Christ - trusting in His Death and shed Blood alone for forgiveness of sins?

Yes. But I still don't understand what your're saying by, or how you came up with:

Abraham = Father
Isaac = Son
Jacob = Holy Spirit