Maybe I Am Not Understanding the Post Tribulation Rapture. - Can You Help?

[amigo de christo]

I just read that the Pope, Pope Leo, wants complete union with the Orthodox church.
Reminded me of your posts.

Soon all whose names are not IN the lambs book of life
will bow to interreligious dialgoue of ecumenical interfaith and buy the lie they so think is the love of GOD .
If we do nothing , if we sit and hug and get along and just find common ground
WE ARE GOING DOWN with them all .
Being unequally yoked will finish them all off with the lie .
No such thing as BELIEF and UNBELEIF .
EITHER WE BELIEVED one had TO BELEIVE IN CHRIST JESUS TO BE SAVED
or we do NOT BELEIVE IT , if even we try and lip we do .
GET THEM OUT , for the love of all that is pure and holy , GET THEM OUT of anything ecumenical and now .
WHILE THERE still be time to do so . Many have already bought the lie
and many more soon will .

 

[The Light]

I am correct, you aren't. As I have stated before the 10 Virgin Females stands for the EMTIRE COMPLETE CHURCH, and its more than 10 and bot all female, nor all virgins. Yet you can't grasp the 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000 means ALL Israel who repents, both male and female, and all are seen by God as virgins in Christ, BUT ALAS............You can understand the 10 virgins CODE.

That is on you sir. 12 = fulness and 10 completeness. The 1/3 repenting = 5 million as there are 15 million Jews alive, it will never be 144,000. How do you discuss prophesy brother and can not grasp the way God's lingo in prophesy is given unto us?

I believe Word of God. God goes to lengths to tell us exactly who the 144,000 are. They 12,000 from each tribe.

There is no way you can understand the Bible when you change things like the 144,000 are 5 million Jews.

And you can't answer this question. If the 144,000 are 5,000,000 Jews, what do you do when the 144,000 Jews are raptured to heaven as first fruits. Will all 5 million Jews go to heaven BEFORE the wrath of God.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

[The Light]

Where is your proof that before the first trumpet sounds, they already have the mark of the beast and are already worshiping it's image? Obviously, if you are correct, this means they already have it's mark and already worshiping it's image before the first trumpet sounds.

The beast is still around for Armageddon.

Revelation 16
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The beast is in power for 42 months, but the wrath of God only lasts one year before Armageddon. Therefore, the people have to have taken the mark before the 1st trumpet.

. Apparently, you would then have us believe that the 42 month reign of the beast precedes trumpet 1 rather than is not fulfilled until the time of the 6th trumpet at least.

No sir. The 42 month reign of the beast will go through the sixth trumpet.

In my view, in Matthew 24, the 42 month reign of the beast is meaning during verses 15-26. And when verse 29 is fulfilled, verses 15-26 are now in the past at this point, and that it has then shifted into the wrath of God, the DOTL, the time of the last 7 viles during the 7th trumpet, and not the time of the 6 trumpets preceding the 7th trumpet.

The 7th trumpet and 7th vial are basically over at the same time.

 

[The Light]

It's because you either 'do not know', or you 'REFUSE to recognize', that Christ's Church involves that same symbolic "woman" of Revelation 12.

Here is scriptural support that the woman is Israel.

Rev 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Do you have any scriptural support that the woman is the Church?

And at this point, you appear to be of the latter, that you REJECT the Church's involvement in any of this prophecy about the symbolic "woman".

There is nothing showing that the woman is the Church in those verses.

And I think I know why you REJECT the Church's involvement with that "woman" of Revelation 12. It's because you heed men's false doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture theory, because it seems like that is what you believe about our Lord Jesus' future coming.

No. Go fish.

The reason I reject that the woman is the Church is because the scripture shows that the woman is Israel.

Yet that is a doctrine of men,

So you're saying you don't understand the Word of God.

but it can make one who follows it deny that symbolic "woman" includes Christ's Church also, because that doctrine of men wrongly teaches that the Church will be raptured prior to that 1260 days period mentioned in the Rev.12:14.

The Church will be raptured before the great tribulation.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[The Light]

Nope. I'm done talking with you about this, since you reject that symbolic "woman" is about Christ's Church also going through the coming "great tribulation",

Of course I reject that. I believe the written Word of God.

You cannot provide any scriptural support that the woman is the Christian Church.

the 1260 days shown in Rev.12:14. That is why the last verse says the "dragon" and "serpent" (both names for Satan) go after those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. The orthodox unbelieving Jews do NOT have that Testimony; only those of Christ's Church do.

What do you do with this verse? Pretend it's not there?

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Part of Israel will have its blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.........................at the pretribulation rapture.

Those Jews, the seed of the woman.....the 12 tribes across the earth that have their blindness removed, become Christians.

 

[Marvelloustime]

Soon all whose names are not IN the lambs book of life
will bow to interreligious dialgoue of ecumenical interfaith and buy the lie they so think is the love of GOD .
If we do nothing , if we sit and hug and get along and just find common ground
WE ARE GOING DOWN with them all .
Being unequally yoked will finish them all off with the lie .
No such thing as BELIEF and UNBELEIF .
EITHER WE BELIEVED one had TO BELEIVE IN CHRIST JESUS TO BE SAVED
or we do NOT BELEIVE IT , if even we try and lip we do .
GET THEM OUT , for the love of all that is pure and holy , GET THEM OUT of anything ecumenical and now .
WHILE THERE still be time to do so . Many have already bought the lie
and many more soon will .

@amigo de christo

 

[Davidpt]

The beast is still around for Armageddon.

Revelation 16
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The beast is in power for 42 months, but the wrath of God only lasts one year before Armageddon. Therefore, the people have to have taken the mark before the 1st trumpet.


No sir. The 42 month reign of the beast will go through the sixth trumpet.

The 7th trumpet and 7th vial are basically over at the same time.

Except vial 1 has to precede vial 7. And that you indicated trumpet 1 and vial 1 happen during the same time frame.

It's real simple then, if one takes the time to connect the dots. If the first vial is poured out during the 1st trumpet, this means that the 42 month reign of the beast has been fulfilled and in the past by the time the 1st trumpet sounds. Which then is absurd.

Obviously, during the 42 month reign no vials are being poured out yet, since it would contradict Revelation 13, since that ch shows no hint of any vials being poured out yet.

For example.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Does this sound like this is paralleling the time of the vials of wrath? Of course not. Not even remotely.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Does this sound like this is paralleling the time of the vials of wrath? Of course not. Not even remotely.

Look at vial 1 again.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


Until Revelation 13:14 is fulfilled first, in the meantime there is no mark of the beast to get or not get. There is no image of the beast to worship or not worship yet. Amils might believe nonsense like that, that Revelation 13:14 doesn't have to be fulfilled before Revelation 16:2 can be applicable. But why would non Amils agree with nonsense like that as well? Therefore, logic says the first vial of wrath plus the other 6 vials of wrath, follow the fulfillment of the 42 month reign. Not parallel it.

Revelation 16:2 clearly and plainly says this vial is poured upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. Which obviously means after Revelation 13:14 has been fulfilled first. By placing the first vial during the first trumpet is to place the 42 month reign of the beast before rather than after the time of the first trumpet. Which again, is absurd. If that is not your position that the 42 month reign precedes the first trumpet, maybe you need to quit insisting that the first vial is poured out during the first trumpet. The first vial is not even possible unless the 42 month reign of the beast has preceded it. Therefore, the first vial is not even possible until the time of the 7th trumpet.

Here's what I tend to think. The 6 trumpet judgments, the 2Ws are behind that. Look at the following, for example.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


Who would argue that none of the trumpets involve plagues? And does not Revelation 11:6 say this---and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will? The text says all plagues, not some plagues but not other plagues. It says all plagues.

In my view, the 2Ws 1260 days are fulfilled first, followed by the 42 month reign of the beast.

 

[Davy]

The Church will be raptured before the great tribulation.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So I remembered correctly that you had latched onto man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory. And that is why you reject any notion that symbolic "woman" of Rev.12 is about the Church also, especially when the last verse points directly to those who have The Gospel of Jesus Christ. That Luke 21 Scripture does not compete with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 which point directly to His coming AFTER the tribulation to gather His Church. Thus it means you have been wrongly taught to miss-interpret that Luke 21:36 verse.


BRETHREN IN CHRIST WITH EYES TO SEE, AND EARS TO HEAR:
You might be wondering why those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory would reject that Rev.12 symbolic "woman" involving Christ's Church also. It is because the Pre-trib theory wrongly believes the Church will be raptured prior to the "great tribulation", just as The Light believes per his post. Then that theory believes the Jews or nation of Israel, are 'left-behind' to go through the tribulation. The fact of Rev.12:17 about those who have the "Testimony of Jesus Christ" points directly to Christ's Church involved as that symbolic "woman" also, and reverses what Pre-trib wrongly teaches about it. That's why The Light has been taught to reject it.

That is why I warn so often about being careful to check what men teach in God's Word for yourself, because often what men teach are ideas they come up with that may or may not be actually written in God's Word. Man's Pre-trib Rapture theory is one of those ideas by men not written in God's Word. When Lord Jesus showed just the opposite timing for after... the tribulation is when He comes to gather His saints, then that's the end of the story, and what Jesus said is what matters, and not what those men say.

Our Heavenly Father and His Son by The Holy Spirit given us notices this rejection of the actual Bible Scripture in favor of a doctrine made up by men. The Holy Spirit will cut off understanding within God's Word about that matter if one rejects the written Scripture. Then where that subject may be involved in many other Bible Scriptures, those who rejected it in the first place will continue in confusion in those other Bible sections also. It simply leads down to confusion like a snowball rolling to hell.

 

[Davy]

Of course I reject that. I believe the written Word of God.

You cannot provide any scriptural support that the woman is the Christian Church.

I don't have to prove to you... anything. The Bible Scripture is ALREADY WRITTEN. It's just a matter of whether you are going to accept it as written, or not.

Jesus' Words...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Not only does Lord Jesus show that His coming to gather His Church will be after... the tribulation, but He also points to the 2 groups that are gathered which Apostle Paul covered in 1 Thessalonians 4. And that reveals that Apostle Paul got his teaching of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 directly from Lord Jesus...

from one end of heaven to the other.

Those are about the 'asleep' saints that Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He comes. They are resurrected. Jesus brings those FROM Heaven.

from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Then those are the saints still alive on earth, "caught up" to Jesus and His resurrected saints He brings with Him from Heaven.

 

[The Light]

Except vial 1 has to precede vial 7.

Of course it does.

And that you indicated trumpet 1 and vial 1 happen during the same time frame.

I think that has to be the case.

It's real simple then, if one takes the time to connect the dots. If the first vial is poured out during the 1st trumpet,

I am not saying the first vial is poured out during the first trumpet. I'm saying John has a vision about the wrath of God, 7 angels with 7 trumpets. John has a separate vision about the wrath of God. This time the 7 angels have 7 vials. You do not see the same event occurring in the trumpets and vials. Each has a different, but the events occur in the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

this means that the 42 month reign of the beast has been fulfilled and in the past by the time the 1st trumpet sounds. Which then is absurd.

Absurd? Of course it is. That's not what I'm saying. The beast is still in power during the one year wrath as the beast is at Armageddon which is after the 6th trumpet and 6th vial.

Obviously, during the 42 month reign no vials are being poured out yet, since it would contradict Revelation 13, since that ch shows no hint of any vials being poured out yet.

This is not correct. During the last year of the 42 months (Gods wrath) the trumpets and vials are poured out. The beast is still in power during the wrath of God.

 

[The Light]

For example.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Does this sound like this is paralleling the time of the vials of wrath? Of course not. Not even remotely.

You are correct, not even remotely. So what is going on? See below when you get to the last comment.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Does this sound like this is paralleling the time of the vials of wrath? Of course not. Not even remotely.

You are correct, not even remotely. So what is going on? See below when you get to the last comment.

Look at vial 1 again.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


Until Revelation 13:14 is fulfilled first, in the meantime there is no mark of the beast to get or not get. There is no image of the beast to worship or not worship yet. Amils might believe nonsense like that, that Revelation 13:14 doesn't have to be fulfilled before Revelation 16:2 can be applicable. But why would non Amils agree with nonsense like that as well? Therefore, logic says the first vial of wrath plus the other 6 vials of wrath, follow the fulfillment of the 42 month reign. Not parallel it.

The 7 vials all happen in order. The wrath of God lasts one year, so the trumpets and vials happen in the last 12 months of the 42 months.

If that is not your position that the 42 month reign precedes the first trumpet, maybe you need to quit insisting that the first vial is poured out during the first trumpet. The first vial is not even possible unless the 42 month reign of the beast has preceded it.

I am not saying that the first vial happens in the 1st trumpet.

I'm saying that the 7 trumpets happen in the wrath of God.

Then we get a different vision with the 7 vials which also happen in the wrath of God.

It's like you sit down to watch a football game. You watch one play in the 1st quarter. It's a running play and the guy scores a touchdown. You go throw a pizza in the oven.

I'm down the street. I sit down to watch the same game after you have gotten up. I see a passing play. The guy makes a first down. Wife then tells me to take her to the store.

We both watched one play in the same game in the 1st quarter.

It's the same game. It's the same quarter, but we got a different view.

John has two visions of the same event........Gods wrath.

Therefore, the first vial is not even possible until the time of the 7th trumpet.

This is a wrong conclusion which I will clarify below.

Here's what I tend to think. The 6 trumpet judgments, the 2Ws are behind that. Look at the following, for example.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


Who would argue that none of the trumpets involve plagues? And does not Revelation 11:6 say this---and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will? The text says all plagues, not some plagues but not other plagues. It says all plagues.

I think there are plagues in God wrath, but I also think those plagues begin before the one year wrath of God.
Since this is so long I am going to clarify what I believe you are missing in the next post. And you drew a lot of correct conclusions and it was a well thought out post. Go to the next post, that I will be working on in ten minutes.

 

[ewq1938]

I think there are plagues in God wrath, but I also think those plagues begin before the one year wrath of God.

So you claim 2 years of God's wrath but in the same sentence say it starts before that 1 year? You contradict yourself which shows you are wrong plus not one verse says God's wrath is that long anyways.

 

[Button]

That isn't the Tribulation spoke of in the OD.




No. First, it says the remnant of her seed not her seed. Second, it identifies them as Christians:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Would you say verse 17 there cancels the ideology held by some in our faith, that the commandments no longer apply to Christians?

 

[The Light]

In my view, the 2Ws 1260 days are fulfilled first, followed by the 42 month reign of the beast.

I don't think this is correct because the two witness are killed and raptured right before the 7th trumpet. The 7th trumpet is the end of Gods wrath. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Revelation 11
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

OK. BACK TO WHEN YOU WERE DRAWING CONLCUSIONS ABOUT REVELATION 13 and I said I would clarify.

In my opinion, you are misreading the order of Revelation.

You were bringing up the events of Rev 13 and drawing conclusions.

I think Revelation reads like this. (I'm skipping Rev 1,2,3,4,5 and 12, 17-21). Revelation 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 are read in order, but Rev 11 begins before Rev 6 with the Temple measured to be built and the arrival of the two witnesses arriving on the scene. However, Rev 11 also is the end of Gods wrath with the sounding of the 7th trumpet. When the 7th trumpet sounds the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. When the 7th trumpet sounds, the mystery of God is finished.

Rev 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When the 7th trumpet sounds it is a time of judgement and rewards.
Rev 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So we can stop at Revelation 11. The story is over as far as the wrath of God is concerned. In other words, the vials DO NOT follow the trumpets. The vials are a different view of the same timeline with different inform.

Now........do you want to get a different view of the same timeframe of Revelation 6-11. Then read Rev 13,14,15 and 16. When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are looking at events that happen in Revelation 6, a different view of the same timeframe with different information. When you are reading Rev 15 you are basically in the same timeframe of Rev 7 and the first part of Rev 8. When you are reading Rev 16 these events happen in the same timeframe as Revelation 8,9,10 and 11.

Revelation reads like Genesis 7. In Genesis 7 you get three views of Noah loading the animals and three views of the flood. Noah only loads the animals once and there is only one flood, but you get three views with different information of the same timeframe.

In Revelation you get two views of the seals. (Revelation 6 and Revelation 13-14). You also get two views of the wrath of God. Revelation 8-11 and Revelation 16.

 

[The Light]

So you claim 2 years of God's wrath but in the same sentence say it starts before that 1 year? You contradict yourself which shows you are wrong plus not one verse says God's wrath is that long anyways.

I see no claims of 2 years of God's wrath.

 

[ewq1938]

I see no claims of 2 years of God's wrath.

1 year, but you added more to it.

 

[ewq1938]

Would you say verse 17 there cancels the ideology held by some in our faith, that the commandments no longer apply to Christians?

Since this is post-cross it is NT commandments not the ones from the OT aside from some carried over but most of the many OT commandments were nailed to the cross.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I believe Word of God.

"I BELIVE THE WORD".....when you want to you believe the "TRUE NUMBERS" like the 144,000, but when you DON'T WANT TO you believe the 10 represents the Complete Church. So, which is it? All you just did was prove you are not taking prophesy serious, because no prophetic theist would put forth God as not being consistently symmetrical on all things, especially when He uses codes and prophetic lingo, it has to always be consistent.

God goes to lengths to tell us exactly who the 144,000 are. They 12,000 from each tribe.

There is no way you can understand the Bible when you change things like the 144,000 are 5 million Jews.

Are thee only 10 Virgin Females? You will never be consistent because you would have to admit that there is no such thing as 144,000 just like there is no such thing as 10 Virgin only female who are the Bride of Christ. What part of the 1/3 in Zech. 13:8-9 do you not grasp? Is the 144,000 a proper number? No, the 1/3 of 15 million is 5 million, not 144,000. WHY WOUD God ever give Satan the TRUE NUMBER? It is mind boggling you can not grasp this brother, no wonder you go back and forth on the timing of the Rapture. Of course God was never going to let Saran plan for 5 Million for 2000 years, thus in Zech. 13 he says 1/3 and in Revelation God gives us a CODE just like He did with the 10 Virgins.

Any time we see "perfect numbers" its a code, so God saved Himself 7000 people in the old testament. WOW, small wonders..........it also fits a God lingo CODE. As in 7 = Divine Completion and 10 Completion so 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 7000, but its not 7000 its Divine Completion x Completion. Even each tribe is a perfect number, 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 its amazing isn't it? 12,000 is a code also. And the male virgins = our female virgins, they are now purified by Jesus' blood, they are NOT VIRGINS by nature.

And you can't answer this question. If the 144,000 are 5,000,000 Jews, what do you do when the 144,000 Jews are raptured to heaven as first fruits. Will all 5 million Jews go to heaven BEFORE the wrath of God.

First Fruits of THE WHEAT........The Wheat is Israel, the Wheat is grown together with the tares until the end, the very end. We the Church are not the wheat, we are the Barley.

Google would tell you this.....
In ancient Israel, alongside the wheat harvest, the cheaper and earlier grain harvested was barley.

Israel are protected by God in the Petra/Bozrah area because God has to set up the Kingdom Age.

When you get to heaven (pre trib.) and learn everything I told you was spot on, it will hit you Satan was still at work deceiving people with half truths.

 

[The Light]

"I BELIVE THE WORD".....when you want to you believe the "TRUE NUMBERS" like the 144,000, but when you DON'T WANT TO you believe the 10 represents the Complete Church. So, which is it? All you just did was prove you are not taking prophesy serious, because no prophetic theist would put forth God as not being consistently symmetrical on all things, especially when He uses codes and prophetic lingo, it has to always be consistent.

What you are telling me is that you do not know the difference between a parable and a prophecy. The story of the 10 virgins is a parable. The 144,000 first fruits, 12,000 from each tribe is a prophecy.

Are thee only 10 Virgin Females? You will never be consistent because you would have to admit that there is no such thing as 144,000 just like there is no such thing as 10 Virgin only female who are the Bride of Christ.

One is parable and one is a prophecy.

What part of the 1/3 in Zech. 13:8-9 do you not grasp?

What part of 144,000, twelve thousand from each tribe do you not grasp?

Is the 144,000 a proper number? No, the 1/3 of 15 million is 5 million, not 144,000. WHY WOUD God ever give Satan the TRUE NUMBER?

Uh oh. Has Satan been given the true number of witnesses as 2. Or has he. What is the secret code for the 2 witnesses that come in the last days?

It is mind boggling you can not grasp this brother, no wonder you go back and forth on the timing of the Rapture.

Go back and forth on the timing of the Rapture? No, the timing is the same. There are two raptures. The is raptured before the great tribulation and the 12 tribes across the earth that have their blindness remove will be raptured pre wrath, at the 6th seal. If you understood what first fruits are you would understand they are first fruits of the second harvest.

Of course God was never going to let Saran plan for 5 Million for 2000 years, thus in Zech. 13 he says 1/3 and in Revelation God gives us a CODE just like He did with the 10 Virgins.

Any time we see "perfect numbers" its a code, so God saved Himself 7000 people in the old testament. WOW, small wonders..........it also fits a God lingo CODE. As in 7 = Divine Completion and 10 Completion so 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 7000, but its not 7000 its Divine Completion x Completion. Even each tribe is a perfect number, 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 its amazing isn't it? 12,000 is a code also. And the male virgins = our female virgins, they are now purified by Jesus' blood, they are NOT VIRGINS by nature.

It puzzles me why you want to solve a problem when the answer is already given.

First Fruits of THE WHEAT........The Wheat is Israel, the Wheat is grown together with the tares until the end, the very end. We the Church are not the wheat, we are the Barley.

The dead in Christ is the barley harvest. The alive that remain is the wheat harvest. The is why there is barley and wheat cakes presented by the priest on Pentecost. The barley harvest is harvested at Pentecost and wheat is harvest at the end of summer at the time of the Feast of New Wine.

Israel is the fruit harvest.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The harvest of Revelation 14 is the harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth. The 144,000 are first fruits of this harvest.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The unrighteous are the grapes that are cast into the wrath of God.
Revelation 14
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

After the Church is raptured at the end of summer wheat harvest, God will turn His attention to His Chosen who realize the first harvest has come.

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The first shall be last and the last shall be first.

Google would tell you this.....
In ancient Israel, alongside the wheat harvest, the cheaper and earlier grain harvested was barley.

Israel are protected by God in the Petra/Bozrah area because God has to set up the Kingdom Age.

When you get to heaven (pre trib.) and learn everything I told you was spot on, it will hit you Satan was still at work deceiving people with half truths.

When we get to heaven pretrib you will find out we are waiting for the second harvest so we can attain the marriage supper of the lamb.

 

[The Light]

So I remembered correctly that you had latched onto man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory. And that is why you reject any notion that symbolic "woman" of Rev.12 is about the Church also, especially when the last verse points directly to those who have The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I reject your notion that the woman in Revelation 12 is the Church for many reasons.

First, we can see the Church is in heaven before any seals are opened in Revelation 5.

Secondly, the Word of God tells us that the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. This is an undeniable fact for anyone that is seeking the truth.
Revelation 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Thirdly, the Word tells us not to be ignorant of the FACT that after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in blindness will be removed from part of Israel. Denying this truth is why you lack understanding.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

BRETHREN IN CHRIST WITH EYES TO SEE, AND EARS TO HEAR:
You might be wondering why those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory would reject that Rev.12 symbolic "woman" involving Christ's Church also.

No. There is no need to wonder who the woman is as the Word of God clearly says that the woman is Israel. The woman flees to her place of protection after the abomination of desolation is set up.

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Do you think this is the Church that is fleeing and the Church is in Judea?

It is because the Pre-trib theory wrongly believes the Church will be raptured prior to the "great tribulation", just as The Light believes per his post. Then that theory believes the Jews or nation of Israel, are 'left-behind' to go through the tribulation. The fact of Rev.12:17 about those who have the "Testimony of Jesus Christ" points directly to Christ's Church involved as that symbolic "woman" also, and reverses what Pre-trib wrongly teaches about it. That's why The Light has been taught to reject it.

Again, you are ignorant of FACT that blindness will be removed from part of Israel, and they will see that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah. When the dragon can't get to the woman he goes after her seed. The seed of the woman is the twelve tribes across the earth. That means that the Jews around the world will be hunted and killed as they keep the commandments of God and now have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That is why I warn so often about being careful to check what men teach in God's Word for yourself, because often what men teach are ideas they come up with that may or may not be actually written in God's Word.

Warning against something that may be in the Word of God?

Man's Pre-trib Rapture theory is one of those ideas by men not written in God's Word. When Lord Jesus showed just the opposite timing for after... the tribulation is when He comes to gather His saints, then that's the end of the story, and what Jesus said is what matters, and not what those men say

The real problem is you don't understand the Word of God. You teach about one coming of the Lord. You teach about one fold. You do not realize there are two folds and the second fold cannot occur until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. It's two folds into one fold. That of course means there are two raptures.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Our Heavenly Father and His Son by The Holy Spirit given us notices this rejection of the actual Bible Scripture in favor of a doctrine made up by men. The Holy Spirit will cut off understanding within God's Word about that matter if one rejects the written Scripture.

This is true which is why you lack understanding. You skip half the scripture and come up with a false conclusion.

Then where that subject may be involved in many other Bible Scriptures, those who rejected it in the first place will continue in confusion in those other Bible sections also. It simply leads down to confusion like a snowball rolling to hell.

So, you believe that a man that is watching for the coming of Lord as instructed is heading for hell because he believes that the Lord will come before the great tribulation?

I don't think our salvation is based on this.