Michael jackson

[Robbie]

Some people say I'm weird, or eccentric....... Here's me at 16. Based on how I looked what would you have thought if you ran into me on the street?

EPIC!!!

 

[Rach1370]

Every time we judge, we are eating the same fruit as Adam and Eve.

Yeah? How so? I always thought that the 'original' sin was that of pride. Adam and Eve felt that they were 'enough' to put their opinions and choices above those of Gods. They were, in effect, declaring their right to be their own Lord and God, just as Satan had done before them.
How does judging come into this? (genuine question by the way!!)

 

[FHII]

Yeah? How so? I always thought that the 'original' sin was that of pride. Adam and Eve felt that they were 'enough' to put their opinions and choices above those of Gods. They were, in effect, declaring their right to be their own Lord and God, just as Satan had done before them.
How does judging come into this? (genuine question by the way!!)

Look, I care very little about this topic. Michael couldn't have been that great of an evangelist, IMO. He wouldn't have lead the world to Christianity. Some yes, but not everyone. He wouldn't have been a big star if all he did was that. Just my opinion. He was a great entertainer, and that's as far as it goes. Yes, I find his accusations eccentric and a partly believe some of them. But what he did was not Christian.... Not any more than my job as an educator in the public schools is. It served it's purpose and what he did, he was pretty good at.

Did he ever acknowledge God for his talents? I'm asking! I really don't know. Did Elvis or Patsy Cline? I don't know. But he was a great entertainer. I let him be that.

EPIC!!!

At twenty four I didn't look much different! I didn't have the big liberty bell mohawk, I had devil locks!

 

[aspen]

Yeah? How so? I always thought that the 'original' sin was that of pride. Adam and Eve felt that they were 'enough' to put their opinions and choices above those of Gods. They were, in effect, declaring their right to be their own Lord and God, just as Satan had done before them.
How does judging come into this? (genuine question by the way!!)

Every time we make a judgment, we are claiming ourselves as an authority - pride.

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Jackson started all the rumors about sleeping in an oxygen chamber - just to get publicity - some people think he even started the wako-jacko name, in the first place.

He was a lost person.

 

[Foreigner]

His "Billy Jean" was the first African American performer video ever shown on MTV.

He was an extremely talented and extremely tortured individual.

 

[Rach1370]

Every time we make a judgment, we are claiming ourselves as an authority - pride.

Huh, yeah, I suppose so. Although I do think there is a big difference between discernment and judgement. Judgement being us declaring the salvation status of others, which quite obviously only God can do. But we must be discerning, or even discriminating in a way. That sounds bad, but its truly is not. We must make choices based on our beliefs and what we know to be best for us and our children. By making the choice to protect my children from certain people who have 'records' in child abuse, I am being discerning. If I have a weakness in certain areas I make the decision to avoid people rife in those areas...this is not judging them as unsaved, but it is making a discerning decision that their behaviour is not appropriate to have around me. Does that make sense? I know there have been pretty huge debates on this board about judgement, and whether we should or should not. Final judgement belongs only to God...even someone who denies God now is not beyond being saved later before they die, so it is not for us to label them hell bound full stop. But indeed all of us, even those opposed to 'judging' make discerning decisions every day...it is the only wise thing we can do in life as we fight against our sin and the sin of the world.
So I suppose in regards to the Michael Jackson case goes, well, whether he was mentally incapable or not, only God truly knew his heart. But even deciding we had no grounds to declare him damned while alive, I would never have allowed my son anywhere near him.

 

[aspen]

Huh, yeah, I suppose so. Although I do think there is a big difference between discernment and judgement. Judgement being us declaring the salvation status of others, which quite obviously only God can do. But we must be discerning, or even discriminating in a way. That sounds bad, but its truly is not. We must make choices based on our beliefs and what we know to be best for us and our children. By making the choice to protect my children from certain people who have 'records' in child abuse, I am being discerning. If I have a weakness in certain areas I make the decision to avoid people rife in those areas...this is not judging them as unsaved, but it is making a discerning decision that their behaviour is not appropriate to have around me. Does that make sense? I know there have been pretty huge debates on this board about judgement, and whether we should or should not. Final judgement belongs only to God...even someone who denies God now is not beyond being saved later before they die, so it is not for us to label them hell bound full stop. But indeed all of us, even those opposed to 'judging' make discerning decisions every day...it is the only wise thing we can do in life as we fight against our sin and the sin of the world.
So I suppose in regards to the Michael Jackson case goes, well, whether he was mentally incapable or not, only God truly knew his heart. But even deciding we had no grounds to declare him damned while alive, I would never have allowed my son anywhere near him.

Yeah, I am distinguishing between a personal judgment and a judgment based on God's law. All our judgments should be turned over to God - so your child abuser example is a good one because it is based on insight on God's laws, not your own. God made you a mother and protecting your children is your God-given responsibility. All I am saying is that apart from God, we are doomed to primitive, dualistic, inconsistent forms of making judgments - or eating the fruit - make sense?

 

[FHII]

OK, all wackiness aside, let's think about what MJ would've been able to accomplish as a Gospel singer or if he openly promoted Christianity. In my opinion, he wouldn't have been as big. I was just looking at a list of his 20 biggest songs. The first 7 songs aren't really positive influences. Number 8 was pretty good, (Man in the Mirror), but other than that, at number 18 you have "Heal the World" (which I really haven't heard). There isn't much postitive in his songs. They've either caused outrage on one point or another or they are about deliquent behavior. In short, he was playing up to societies' wishes. Yes I did see the video for Bad and I understand the message. (for the record... I got the list from http://hiphoprnbsoul...t/view/494/117/)

I don't blame MJ for that. He was doing business. But let's ask what would happen if he changed the lyrics to any of the melodies and sang about Jesus. I really don't think he would've done as well as he did.

Let's look at it from a different angle. What if he would've kept doing what he did and gave public acknowledgement to Jesus? I'm not sure he didn't (I'm not a big fan and I didn't follow his career that much). That never seemed to help anyone else. I think it would've impacted his career in a negative way. Please don't get upset at that.... Remember the Bible says in a few ways that the world would hate us! (I'm speaking in very general terms). But then again, if he had made such a stance, and it impacted one single fan in a good way, I suppose it would've been worth it.

Let me summarize what I'm getting at. Was MJ popular because he was MJ, or because of the image and the product he delivered? My opinion is that it was the product and image. Had he had a change of heart even at the peak of his career, he most likely would've impacted some, which is good. But don't think the world would be Utopia because of it.

 

[Robbie]

If anyone here actually knew Michael Jackson on a personal level please fill us in on what kind of a person he was... otherwise all you are being is a bunch of gossipers...

So stick to the only thing you really do know about MJ... and that's his music... and whether you personally like it or not...

Personally I love it... and maybe instead of passing sentence on Jackson maybe people need to take a look at the man in the mirror... haha

 

[Duckybill]

It seems to be sinful human nature to try to squeeze others into God's Kingdom, even without any evidence whatsoever. If it is sin to judge others wouldn't it also be sin to say someone is in God's Kingdom? That is certainly judging others.

But the Biblical Truth is:

Matthew 7:14 (ESV)
[sup]14 [/sup]For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

So then, how many is a "few"? The Bible gives definite clues.

 

[Robbie]

That's one sentence...

In another place it says the Kingdom of God is being preached and everyone is pressing into it... how many is everyone?

Good news... not my problem to worry about who's getting in... haha

Especially people that I only know through the worlds media... which means I don't know them at all...

What is this? This Christian version of TMZ? hahahahahahhahahhahahahha

 

[Rach1370]

Yeah, I am distinguishing between a personal judgment and a judgment based on God's law. All our judgments should be turned over to God - so your child abuser example is a good one because it is based on insight on God's laws, not your own. God made you a mother and protecting your children is your God-given responsibility. All I am saying is that apart from God, we are doomed to primitive, dualistic, inconsistent forms of making judgments - or eating the fruit - make sense?

Okay, I think I get it. You mean that as unsaved people, every decision and action they make is based on their own need to be lord of their own lives. That means that as they judge others and behave in their own self interests, they are taking that fruit over and over. Is that right?

Although, as far as actual 'judgement' goes, don't you find it's usually the religious 'Pharisees' of our day that do most of it, rather than the unsaved? People who are more concerned about others sins, rather than their own. That kinda implies they have to be aware of sin in the first place, which I guess most unsaved people aren't. Just a thought!

 

[aspen]

Okay, I think I get it. You mean that as unsaved people, every decision and action they make is based on their own need to be lord of their own lives. That means that as they judge others and behave in their own self interests, they are taking that fruit over and over. Is that right?

Although, as far as actual 'judgement' goes, don't you find it's usually the religious 'Pharisees' of our day that do most of it, rather than the unsaved? People who are more concerned about others sins, rather than their own. That kinda implies they have to be aware of sin in the first place, which I guess most unsaved people aren't. Just a thought!

I mean that saved or unsaved (I believe we are saved every time we pick up our Cross and follow Christ), if we decide to go into survival mode (trusting our instincts) instead of trusting and placing our faith in God; we are going to lean towards rigid, protectionistic, dogmatism - just like the Pharisees. The Pharisees were emotional, spiritual children - children that believed that the law needed to be protected at all costs and it was their responsibility to protect it. You can see the same thing happen in children who are raised by parents who are actually children - the kid grow up too quickly by having to caretake for their parents; thereby stunting their own growth and relying on instinct, rather than skills they were never given the opportunity to learn. Then, the cycle is repeated.

In our attempt to guard the truth, we will suffocate it.

 

[Duckybill]

In our attempt to guard the truth, we will suffocate it.

The Bible cannot be suffocated. Impossible.

 

[aspen]

The Bible cannot be suffocated. Impossible.

Really? You ever heard of the Pharisees? How about Calvin? Preachers in the South who supported slavery? Jehovah's Witnesses/Seventh Day Adventists?

Jesus's message reminded us that the Law was made for us, not us for the Law. This includes the Bible.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

quote name='Templar81' timestamp='1310073287' post='116359']
yes but do you live in a theme park with a chimp and a bunch of 12 year old boys?
[/quote]
So what if I did? Who doesn't want a Chimp???? I train with a bunch of 12 year old boys and girls. If I could afford a theme park,, well, I wouldn't have one, but, I'd definately have a Chimp.

OK, all wackiness aside, let's think about what MJ would've been able to accomplish as a Gospel singer or if he openly promoted Christianity. In my opinion, he wouldn't have been as big. I was just looking at a list of his 20 biggest songs. The first 7 songs aren't really positive influences. Number 8 was pretty good, (Man in the Mirror), but other than that, at number 18 you have "Heal the World" (which I really haven't heard). There isn't much postitive in his songs. They've either caused outrage on one point or another or they are about deliquent behavior. In short, he was playing up to societies' wishes. Yes I did see the video for Bad and I understand the message. (for the record... I got the list from http://hiphoprnbsoul...t/view/494/117/)

I don't blame MJ for that. He was doing business. But let's ask what would happen if he changed the lyrics to any of the melodies and sang about Jesus. I really don't think he would've done as well as he did.

Let's look at it from a different angle. What if he would've kept doing what he did and gave public acknowledgement to Jesus? I'm not sure he didn't (I'm not a big fan and I didn't follow his career that much). That never seemed to help anyone else. I think it would've impacted his career in a negative way. Please don't get upset at that.... Remember the Bible says in a few ways that the world would hate us! (I'm speaking in very general terms). But then again, if he had made such a stance, and it impacted one single fan in a good way, I suppose it would've been worth it.

Let me summarize what I'm getting at. Was MJ popular because he was MJ, or because of the image and the product he delivered? My opinion is that it was the product and image. Had he had a change of heart even at the peak of his career, he most likely would've impacted some, which is good. But don't think the world would be Utopia because of it.

Ever heard of Stryper? They made it big in the 80's, and their career fell apart when they decided to go secular. There's also many other Christian singers, bands, and muscians that sell out arenas regularly.

What made MJ so great was his ability to span racial gaps and generations and cultural gaps. It was his ability to bring something to the world that we could all share and relate to with eachother. Just one small little thing like music that gave us all something we could share with eachother.

 

[FHII]

Ever heard of Stryper? They made it big in the 80's, and their career fell apart when they decided to go secular. There's also many other Christian singers, bands, and muscians that sell out arenas regularly.

What made MJ so great was his ability to span racial gaps and generations and cultural gaps. It was his ability to bring something to the world that we could all share and relate to with eachother. Just one small little thing like music that gave us all something we could share with eachother.
[/quote]

Yes, I've heard of Stryper.... I was a teenager in the 80's. To say they made it big is a bit of a stretch. Motley Crue, Bon Jovi and even Poison made it big.... But ok.... In the 80's teenagers knew about Stryper.
As for other Christian singers, bands and musicians selling out arenas. What's your point? What's your point against what I said (if you are offering a rebuttal)? I still don't think that MJ would've made a huge impact had he done that. I would've supported him (actually I wouldn't have at the time.... I was lost back then), but my opinion is that the world of fans in a general sense wouldn't have been as attracked to him to such a degree. I do acknowledge that if he made even a small difference (I'll even go as far as to say in ONE person's life) as a result of him giving thanks to God publically, it would've been worth it.

Your poing about MJ's ability to span racial gaps, generations and culture is pretty good, though... Yea, he was able to do that. Good point, but I don't think it would've worked if he tried preaching the gospel, even through performing. It's an opinion, but that's what I believe about it.


By the way, I don't want a chimp!

 

[aspen]

Just don't teach your chimp to drive........he might want to take the car out and then rip your friend's face off when she tries to help you stop him....

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-02-17/news/17916437_1_charla-nash-chimp-ape


Don't name him Travis either

Just thinking ahead.

 

[Robbie]

"The law was made for us and not us for the law" BOOYAH... I swear that gave me chills just to actually have someone say that... way to go ASPEN!!!!!

 

[Duckybill]

Really? You ever heard of the Pharisees? How about Calvin? Preachers in the South who supported slavery? Jehovah's Witnesses/Seventh Day Adventists?

Jesus's message reminded us that the Law was made for us, not us for the Law. This includes the Bible.

Really. The Bible hasn't been suffocated, but many have who fight against it, like you do.