"Milk" is Doctrine, "Meat" is.....?

[David H.]

Has the movement from milk to meat begun when the principle doctrines are in place and the journey toward the perfection is in progress?

Interesting thought here. My take is that all the carnality in the church is part of that process of separation and hungering for righteousness. In Other words the prosperity preaching, the crazy manifestations, the doctrinal zealots, the denominationalism, are all part and parcel to the maturation of the Body of Christ. To use a worldly analogy it is like the "Bachelor party" before the "wedding", Or what the Amish call rumspringa...

 

[marks]

Ultimately, division is caused by self righteousness..... "My doctrine is right, yours is wrong" Mindset.

It sounds to me like you are describing pride. I'd have to agree. I think it's often though in the form of envy. I think there are those who desire to be seen as something they are not. And though they don't have a mature understanding of the Scriptures, they press their points seeking that "upper hand".

although sound doctrine is essential to the Christian life, it means nothing until it blossoms in the believer in deeds of righteousness which are not our works but the works of God through us.

I don't know that I'd say "means nothing", just the same, yes, doctrine is intended to reveal to us our Creator, and a life lived with Him. But so that we can know what truly is and is not that life, that we can more accurately know our Creator, He's given us that doctrine.

This whole question of teaching compared to experience, and which is more valuable, for me it's like asking which is more important to forging the sword, the hammer? Or the anvil? Without both, it's not going to work.

I think that's why the writer of Hebrews put it that way, "Who by reason of use", that you begin with the doctrinal milk, but that you won't be getting stronger meat until you put that to use. And then you will be given more meaty doctrine, and as you put that to use, meatier still.

Hebrews 5:12 KJV
12) For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

The comparison made here is that the milk compares to the first principles of the oracles of God, so then the meat is that is beyond the first, of the principles of the oracles of God.

You should be teachers, that is, imparting doctrine, but you are not ready for the meat, you need the milk, the first principles of the Word. The meat here is the deeper understandings and knowledge of the Word, it's teachings.

And you will only arrive there if you correctly use what you've been given. God's Word has an intent for the direction of our lives, and if we pick our own direction, His working won't be happening in us, other than His constant prodding to return to the good way.

it means nothing until it blossoms in the believer in deeds of righteousness which are not our works but the works of God through us.

It think this is also the intent of 2 Corinthians 3:18, to say that seeing God in ourselves transforms us to become like God. But I stress the importance of having the security of the Word of God to moderate our experiences. We can have all manner of experiences, but we have to make sure our perceptions and opinions match up with that doctrine.

If we end up forming our ideas separate from Biblical doctrine, it's not going to be building in us the true faith by which we walk in the ordained works. We can end up choosing for ourselves what we think we should be doing, and miss entirely what God intends for us. Those who want to share their experiences, or to paint some spiritual tapestry for the public to view, or who envy the true spiritually gifted teacher, won't be doing the works of righteousness, but will be doing their own, and I think that brings division into the church.

deeds of righteousness which are not our works but the works of God through us.

God's works through us with the intent that they transform us to be ones who work as He works, they become our works, that God preordained for us to walk in.

It's like in Romans 8, that it's by the Holy Spirit that we cry, Abba! Father! God truly brings us into unity with Him, to the point that I can't separate what part is Him and what part is me!

As the Word of God teaches us to separate flesh from spirit, as we learn to stop identifying with fleshing things, stop trying to do things in fleshy ways, we move more into that Spirit life, and as we more consistenly walk in the Spirit, we will be less divisive.

In terms of this forum, I think that translates into not misrepresenting other people's views, not making accusatory statements, not characterizing others, not "quoting Scripture against someone".

I think of places like Ephesians 4:29, Everyone of us should have this memorized, Let no corrupt word go forth out of your mouth, but what is good unto the needful building up, that it may give grace to the hearers.

If we are not building up . . . if we are not giving grace . . . we should give careful consideration to the delete key.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

1 Jon 5:4 "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."

Much love!

@marks Great verse there! reminds me of Hebrews 11: "By faith....by faith...by faith...."

 

[amadeus]

Interesting thought here. My take is that all the carnality in the church is part of that process of separation and hungering for righteousness. In Other words the prosperity preaching, the crazy manifestations, the doctrinal zealots, the denominationalism, are all part and parcel to the maturation of the Body of Christ. To use a worldly analogy it is like the "Bachelor party" before the "wedding", Or what the Amish call rumspringa...

My own view is that the Bride of Christ comes out of the Body of Christ. The whole Body is saved, but the Bride is seen here as the dove, the undefiled one:

"There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.

My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her.” Song 6:8-9

Many come to the wedding, friends of the Bridegroom but they are not part of the Bride. Jesus of course is the Bridegroom.

What is the difference between those who are members of the Bride and the others within the Body of Christ? Don't try to answer that on this thread and derail this thread.

Look here: If all of the Church is the Bride of Christ who are the guests?

 

[farouk]

Interesting thought here. My take is that all the carnality in the church is part of that process of separation and hungering for righteousness. In Other words the prosperity preaching, the crazy manifestations, the doctrinal zealots, the denominationalism, are all part and parcel to the maturation of the Body of Christ. To use a worldly analogy it is like the "Bachelor party" before the "wedding", Or what the Amish call rumspringa...

Never heard of that before.....

 

[David H.]

My own view is that the Bride of Christ comes out of the Body of Christ. The whole Body is saved, but the Bride is seen here as the dove, the undefiled one:

"There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.

My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her.” Song 6:8-9

Many come to the wedding, friends of the Bridegroom but they are not part of the Bride. Jesus of course is the Bridegroom.

What is the difference between those who are members of the Bride and the others within the Body of Christ? Don't try to answer that on this thread and derail this thread.

Look here: If all of the Church is the Bride of Christ who are the guests?

I Agree with this, and this forms my eschatology in part, as i see the mark of the beast as that final testing of who is faithful even unto death. This end time seduction of the beast promises normalcy for those who conform and worship the beast and take his mark.

My personal view that differs from yours a bit is that I see there are three groups in the end times that stand with Christ, The called, which are the 144,000 of Israel, the chosen which are the saints, and the faithful, which are the bride.

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. (Revelation 17:14)

I Also see the righteousness of the saints as being the linen of the bride...
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Revelation 19:8)

Not everyone in the church is a bride, and not everyone is a saint, contrary to the doctrine which most hold to of us all being saints and us all being the bride of Christ. The end times is that time of rumspringa where we are tested by the temptation and seductions of the world and the faithful are those who deny this seduction.

I Myself am going through this "Job" moment in my life right now of affliction and persecution.... Lord willing I will come through this as faithful unto him through it all, but i also see all the ways i could fall off the path and be seduced. He is my strength and my Joy through it all, and by the blood of the lamb we overcome, and then we will have a word of testimony.... (Revelation 12:11)

God Bless.

 

[David H.]

Never heard of that before.

I Do not know where the Amish got this idea from biblically per se, but what I see these end times we are living in as being is corporate time of rumspringa, where we either return to the Father in desire for holiness or we are seduced by the world. Rumspringa is a time of adolescence when the child (fed on milk) must make the choice to follow the church and be fed the meat of maturity. So it is a fitting concept for this post. All the debauchery and idolatry of this final church age we are living in i see as being this time for the church, and many will "fall away" as promised in scripture, But also many will choose righteousness.

 

[marks]

My take is that all the carnality in the church is part of that process of separation and hungering for righteousness. In Other words the prosperity preaching, the crazy manifestations, the doctrinal zealots, the denominationalism, are all part and parcel to the maturation of the Body of Christ.

What an odd thing to say!

All your crazy manifestations, that is the old man, the mind of the flesh still being prevalent. We need to have our minds renewed to think with the Spiritual mind, and NOT with the carnal mind.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It is endlessing interesting to me how terms are defined but not according to the Bible. They become plastic, moldable. There is no anchor, and no accountability. And of course using dismissive styled labeling as if it were a sensible argument . . .

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

"Milk" is Doctrine, "Meat" is.....?

Great thread! Meat is putting the theory into practice.

Today, 2,000 years later, people - including myself - justify not acting due to debating what the doctrine is.

IMO, our scientific culture wants to overly intellectual Christianity. 4 Words Suffice: Love God. Love Others. Pretending we don't know what this means is just word play. Matthew 25:40

 

[marks]

Great thread! Meat is putting the theory into practice.

Today, 2,000 years later, people - including myself - justify not acting due to debating what the doctrine is.

IMO, our scientific culture wants to overly intellectual Christianity. 4 Words Suffice: Love God. Love Others. Pretending we don't know what this means is just word play. Matthew 25:40

Amen!!

If someone wants to know what true doctrine is, starting doing what you already know! I think that's what eliminates debate, and especially when we serve together. I've found the fellowship of serving to run much deeper than the divisions of pride and envy. We can more readily shelve our disagreements in favor of acting together in love, I think, and in that process, often come to a mutual understanding of the right Way.

All these divisive words just go away in the choice to act in love.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

All these divisive words just go away in the choice to act in love.

This year I played tennis weekly with 3 guys from another friend's church. Not once did we debate doctrine. We were too busy doing life together.

One guy's daughter had a stroke. Another is going through a divorce. The 3rd needed eye surgery. We loved on each other as brother's in Christ. I doubt Christ would be disappointed that we did not argue endlessly over whose doctrine is 'right.'

 

[marks]

This year I played tennis weekly with 3 guys from another friend's church. Not once did we debate doctrine. We were too busy doing life together.

One guy's daughter had a stroke. Another is going through a divorce. The 3rd needed eye surgery. We loved on each other as brother's in Christ. I doubt Christ would be disappointed that we did not argue endlessly over whose doctrine is 'right.'

I've had disagreements with people in my church over our different understandings, but our foundation together wasn't built on our rapture ideas, or latter rain, or visions and dreams, or any of these things, but built on our common faith in Christ. And that was enough! All the other things got sorted out, or just back burnered.

I can think of a number of those I've served alongside, or like you say just shared life together, I didn't even KNOW much of their doctrine. Only that we name the Name of Christ.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Great thread! Meat is putting the theory into practice.

Today, 2,000 years later, people - including myself - justify not acting due to debating what the doctrine is.

IMO, our scientific culture wants to overly intellectual Christianity. 4 Words Suffice: Love God. Love Others. Pretending we don't know what this means is just word play. Matthew 25:40

"Including myself", there is the most important thing of this post. When we realize that, is when we begin to "Practice". It takes humility to begin to understand this.

God Bless.

What an odd thing to say!

For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. (1 Corinthians 11:19)

 

[Heart2Soul]

Milk is the basics of truth and is easily digested or comprehend....meat is the hidden wisdom of God that must be searched for and the wisdom and knowledge of it is beyond any physical reasoning...it is spiritually understood not with carnal reasoning but by having the mind of Christ and able to rightly discern the truth.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 1 Peter 2:2

Milk are the basic doctrines of Salvation that all believers know. This milk causes division as we see in the church today and throughout history, and this was and still is what God designed into the church so as to get them to move from milk to meat.

Few understand what the meat of the Word is or means. The writer of Hebrews equates the meat with the "word of righteousness" (Hebrews 5:12-13)

The Word of Righteousness lays aside the divisions in the church (Which again are God ordained that we should learn to digest the meat of the Word), Which in turn will lead to the church being of one accord.

This process is outlined In Ephesians 4:11-16 Speaking of the "being tossed to and fro by the wind of doctrine" that so many in the Body of Christ experience especially on forums such as this when two sides are presented with strong arguments for and against them.

Again, these divisions are not a "Bad thing", but rather a part of our maturation.... they being God ordained. The Problem is many never grow beyond this milk of doctrine and the continual carnality that perpetuates these divisions, as the writer of Hebrews in the above verses complained about, and Paul complained about in 1 Corinthians 3:1-4.

What does the Meat of the Word mean to you and how does one begin to digest that meat?
Is there a certain realization or experience that moves us from Milk to meat? A condition in mankind that is prone to division that must be overcome? If so explain.

I Leave this open ended in order to show how there are various ways that we reach this point, and I Hope to get a range of answers here which we can then begin to see a commonality to them all.

I’d posted a really long post but then deleted it. Sometimes I do get embarrassed at how long winded I get, later regretting it. But this topic is still on my mind even the topic coming up while talking to a friend yesterday.

(This is just an opinion) but from passages in the word, when speaking of milk and carnal not yet able to bear …is it possible the meat of the word is: to bear His Name? That this growing up, this ‘I had to speak to you as carnal, babes’, this moving on ‘unto perfection’ is ultimately ‘until Christ be formed in you’ having to first bear the image of the earthly; you also shall bear the image of the heavenly. When I consider ‘to bear’ and also the OT where God says where He will put His name, not in vain; He will complete it, perfect it, finish it…

then our not yet able to bear the meat could possibly be that we are not yet able to bear His name. Consider also, I will put no more on you then you can stand. For example where Jesus Christ told them He had more to tell them but they could not bear it yet. And Peter who said “Lord I’m ready to go with you and die for you” and the Lord response to Peter was (paraphrasing) are you able? This night you will deny knowing Me.

 

[Nancy]

Also, using discernment from knowing the Word is pretty important, especially in the days ahead.
The way the church's "teach" today, it's like they want everyone to stay babies, sucking their thumbs, keeping them snug and cozy in their assurance of salvation.
Funny how so many will say to an unbelieving friend "it's simple, Just believe!" This walk is anything BUT simple! The message SHOULD be yet, I just cannot see all the infighting and crazy doctrines being tossed all over the place. The only SAFE way in my estimation is, stick to the scriptures and prayer....=discernment...

 

[marks]

Milk is the basics of truth and is easily digested or comprehend....meat is the hidden wisdom of God that must be searched for and the wisdom and knowledge of it is beyond any physical reasoning...it is spiritually understood not with carnal reasoning but by having the mind of Christ and able to rightly discern the truth.

But you don't mean that you might read something in the Bible the normal way, but inside you just "know" it means something a little different? Or is that what you mean?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I’d posted a really long post but then deleted it.

I do that too! I think more people should, personally.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Also, using discernment from knowing the Word is pretty important, especially in the days ahead.
The way the church's "teach" today, it's like they want everyone to stay babies, sucking their thumbs, keeping them snug and cozy in their assurance of salvation.
Funny how so many will say to an unbelieving friend "it's simple, Just believe!" This walk is anything BUT simple! The message SHOULD be yet, I just cannot see all the infighting and crazy doctrines being tossed all over the place. The only SAFE way in my estimation is, stick to the scriptures and prayer....=discernment...

Keeping people in error can be a self-affirmation. "I'm the one telling you how bad you are, therefore I'm not bad myself!" And we do need discernment to see that sometimes.

Much love!