"Milk" is Doctrine, "Meat" is.....?

[bbyrd009]

I guess that's what I'm wondering is how you define those terms

eternal, from aion; a space of time, an age
soul, from psuche; breath, life

tbh at times it sounds like you are describing reincarnation, at times it seems you are describing Nirvana, at times it seems you are advocating a Christ consciousness as achieved by Jesus. It's really hard for me to follow your thought sometimes

well, are we talking about today, or tomorrow? Bc i dont know about after we have died, beyond you and your sons will be here with me and the spirit goes back to God, Who gave it i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

less religious? What’s wrong with religion?

well, i note that Jesus praised atheists and pagans, and pretty much clowned the religious; guess it depends upon how you define the term maybe?

true religion is helping orphans and widows

 

[David H.]

Do you have to walk on a floor before you believe it will support you?

Years ago I rode motorcycles. I had this pretty little Honda 350. I crashed it, and broke the frame. I looked up in the phone book, and found someone who advertised welding repairs, called them, and rode my little bike over there. The man met me outside with his welding setup. We talked a few minutes, he told me he normally wouldn't do this kind of repair because of the fire hazard, but said he thought it would be fine. I asked him, is this OK? Will it hold? He looked me in the eye and said "it will hold.". And I could see, this guy knows what he's saying. Great! My bike will be OK! And he was only charging $15! (that's how long ago this was)

So I'm wandering around a bit, while he does his thing, and I walk up to the big open door of the warehouse. I couldn't see inside before.

There were 2, no, 3, in various stages of construction, jet engine dragsters. There was a Nascar shop nearby, some machine shops, it was that kind of a place. 3 massive cars, welded tubular steel construction, just like my little motocycle. I saw the reason for his confidence. Here in front of me, towering over my head. Full sized jet aircraft engines. Yes, that weld would hold my little 350CC bike together!

Your example is no different than my rope analogy, your belief in the strength of the weld went from a verbal/mental assurance to an experiential one when you saw the dragsters in the Garage made of welded tubular steel.

Maybe an example . . . one man reads, don't steal, and doesn't steal, another man reads, don't steal, but only learns to not steal after getting beat up or arrested or whatever, for the 20th time.

Here your using a poor simile as this is not speaking of assurance but of sin, which is common sense that leads us to avoid. Common sense tells us it is better not to steal, and law enforcement enforces this (Unless your antifa ) these are material concepts and not Spiritual concepts. Its like believing jumping off a cliff will kill you.... you need not experience this truth, as common sense tells us this truth.

A Spiritual concept is something like the Promise in scripture that says draw nigh to God and he will draw nigh to you.... you can believe this all you want, until you put this into practice it will be just that a promise that you believe to be true but have not experienced it to be true. The Promise goes from just being a verbal promise to a real tangible promise. Such is the meat of the Word As is alluded to in John 16:12-13 which @VictoryinJesus quoted above. Until the Spirit of Truth teaches you, this is just that a promise you believe but have not experienced.

 

[marks]

eternal, from aion; a space of time, an age
soul, from psuche; breath, life

well, are we talking about today, or tomorrow? Bc i dont know about after we have died, beyond you and your sons will be here with me and the spirit goes back to God, Who gave it i guess

OK. To me, it seems we are told so much more, but I'm understanding better how you are looking at this. And I appreciate that!

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

‘I will eat no meat if it causes my brother to offend’. It has been one of those verses that causes questions like; why not correct? why not set straight? why not debate? why not use a hammer? is it coddling or pacifying someone as if you are in total agreement with them in doing as they do and as they believe…to not offend? I’m not saying those are good questions but (at least in my opinion) so commonly is the use of a hammer that what Paul does there towards ‘a weak brother whom Christ died for’ is foreign to me.

well, i doubt it is a call to codependency like you say; i would suggest something like “I will not insist upon adhering to some fact or even truth that my brother is at odds with,” and imo i would not “correct” or “set straight” because that would be my right eye, offending me, or bc what is bad for me may not be bad for him, and bc that would make it pretty hard for me to plant seeds, having poisoned the ground so to speak? But that doesnt require that i be in any “total agreement” with them, does it? If we were comfortable enough with each other i might even advertise that i think he’s nuts, etc. Also, we are surely talking about little stuff here, iow nothing that approaches breaking a law or moral? i would think anyway

what of: His people perish for the lack of knowledge

well that is OT, but good catch imo, i wouldnt say that knowledge is universally bad, but now it seems the context has changed, and we aren’t talking about knowledge that puffs up anymore?

 

[marks]

A Spiritual concept is something like the Promise in scripture that says draw nigh to God and he will draw nigh to you.... you can believe this all you want, until you put this into practice it will be just that a promise that you believe to be true but have not experienced it to be true.

Maybe I'm understanding you better today also.

You separate "believing" something into a "not really believing" and "really believing". But when I say "believing", I mean, this is my life paradigm, something like that. The "really believing". When I'm talking belief and trust, I'm talking about something real and true, not a phony believing, like, you say you believe this chair will hold you, but you only sit on the floor.

If you believe in the efficacy of chairs, you will sit in them at will, but sitting in them is not the source of the belief, as such, it's knowledge of the workmanship and engineering.

I hand you a hammer, and tell you, if you hit the nail, the hammer will not break. Whether you believe me or not, that's happening as I'm telling you.

Now, here you are to drive that nail. You raise the hammer to strike. Do you strike tentitively? OR purposefully? Are you testing the hammer? Or driving the nail? Do you believe? Or do you doubt?

"Not experienced it to be true", of course! If it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't happened yet. This is a tautology, and says nothing. Even so, the real source for faith is God saying this is true, not you're "discovering by experience" something is true.

When you truly believe God, the works don't authenticate His promise, as if His promise isn't real until we see it. Until we SEE it.

Fully trusting is to have that same certainty of God's veracity both before and after whatever experiences we may have, basing our trust not our our perceptions and opinions of our circumstances, but based on God's Word.

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

OK. To me, it seems we are told so much more, but I'm understanding better how you are looking at this. And I appreciate that!

Much love!

well i get that Christ comes, appears, is revealed, but there are some clouds involved, right? So i would expect that one who has “buried with Him in death, raised to new life in him” to have a different concept of what clouds are than a new believer, for one thing. Plus, the new guy’s literal pov might even be carrying his faith at that point, right

 

[marks]

Your example is no different than my rope analogy, your belief in the strength of the weld went from a verbal/mental assurance to an experiential one when you saw the dragsters in the Garage made of welded tubular steel.

You didn't understand my story.

I saw the fellow's confidence, and understood it. I read faces. I perceive things about people. This man knew, and I could see that. I was fully assured without anything else. I wandered off, I didn't need to ask again, I didn't need to watch. But it sure made for an interesting moment as the towering dark shapes came into focus.

The point here is, I didn't need to see the cars to know. I already had the assurance.

The only experiential test of his assurance was that I rode the bike for some years after that without the weld breaking. If you want to look at it that way. Seeing the cars was just another witness. Not any experience.

I mean, after all, I don't know whether this guy had anything to do with building those cars, that's just an assumption. Likely correct, but still just an assumption. These things need to be understood, if we want to make sure we aren't doing the same thing with Scripture, coming to it in an imprecise fashion.

Are we going to wait until we stand before Jesus - the experiential outworking of our faith - before we rejoice in the joy of our salvation? I receive this by faith, purely by faith, but my rejoicing is real.

Much love!

 

[theefaith]

well, i note that Jesus praised atheists and pagans, and pretty much clowned the religious; guess it depends upon how you define the term maybe?

true religion is helping orphans and widows

james that true
Religion is a group of beliefs
Or an organization such as the new covenant church
Also it what we owe to God for creating and redeeming us, worship etc.

 

[amadeus]

Well, they ate some of them for breakfast . . .

;)

And what was that Jesus told us to eat?

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." John 6:53-56

The disciples ate the fish, but perhaps they needed to feed the sheep and lambs with what God supplied. What does that take? What are we to feed others?

"Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.
This is now the third time that Jesus showed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.
So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep." John 21:13-17

 

[marks]

So i would expect that one who has “buried with Him in death, raised to new life in him” to have a different concept of what clouds are than a new believer, for one thing.

That may be true, and maybe not? And maybe the writer had a certain thing in mind, and if we learn what that thing is, then we'll have the right idea?

Much love!

 

[marks]

And what was that Jesus told us to eat?

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." John 6:53-56

The disciples ate the fish, but perhaps they needed to feed the sheep and lambs with what God supplied. What does that take? What are we to feed others?

"Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.
This is now the third time that Jesus showed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.
So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep." John 21:13-17

Nahor (as his name is so is he) refused to succur David, though his men kept the man's sheep safe!

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

"Milk" is Doctrine, "Meat" is.....?
...
“Milk” is doctrine …whose?

Babies? How long can or will a baby live on milk? That is the beginning, perhaps the foundation for that little one, but in order to grow... in order to approach perfection?

"And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." I Chron 28:9

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection..." Heb 6:1

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

 

[theefaith]

Babies? How long can or will a baby live on milk? That is the beginning, perhaps the foundation for that little one, but in order to grow... in order to approach perfection?

"And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." I Chron 28:9

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection..." Heb 6:1

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

he must increase
Is that a reference to the new and old covenant like jn 2 they saved the good wine for last
Or new wine in old wineskins

 

[amadeus]

Nahor (as his name is so is he) refused to succur David, though his men kept the man's sheep safe!

Much love!

"Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others." Phil 2:3-4

 

[amadeus]

he must increase
Is that a reference to the new and old covenant like jn 2 they saved the good wine for last
Or new wine in old wineskins

That is the "new man" of me increasing as he partakes of the flesh and blood of Jesus while the "old man" of me diminishes as he is being killed.. starved by depriving him of fleshly nourishments and pursuits!

"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him" Col 3:9-10


"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov. 9:1-2

Her beasts are that "old man" who when able walks ever deeper into the wilderness or toward some bottomless pit of death.

 

[David H.]

You didn't understand my story.

And you did not understand mine....

A Spiritual concept is something like the Promise in scripture that says draw nigh to God and he will draw nigh to you.... you can believe this all you want, until you put this into practice it will be just that a promise that you believe to be true but have not experienced it to be true. The Promise goes from just being a verbal promise to a real tangible promise. Such is the meat of the Word As is alluded to in John 16:12-13 which @VictoryinJesus quoted above. Until the Spirit of Truth teaches you, this is just that a promise you believe but have not experienced.

An unfulfilled promise is like an unpaid loan.... you cannot claim it as money in the bank until it is repaid to you.

You either have the Spirit of Truth teaching you or you do not, Believe all you want in this promise.

You either have experienced God drawing nigh to you or you have not, Believe all you want that this promise is true.

You either are eating the meat of the word or you are not, Believe all you want that there is a meat to be digested.

Milk is doctrine, meat is experiencing and putting into action that doctrine in your life. Easier said than done....

So to use the doctrine of eternal security, the doctrine is true, but until you experience the full assurance of the faith there is always doubt there if you are truly honest with yourself, and is why scripture has the passages that promote conditional security so as to move us from milk to meat. From doctrine to experience.

It is only then that you will know the truth.

the same can be said for all other doctrines.... for example the divinity of Jesus, we can believe this and we can Know (eido) this as true or we KNOW (Ginosko) Him.... Emannuel, God with us. This is the deep meaning of 1 John 5:20...

 

[marks]

went from a verbal/mental assurance to an experiential one

Romans 5:3-4 KJV
3) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

This is so, but first,

Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Much love!

 

[Ziggy]

I think Glen Beck read my post.

 

[David H.]

Romans 5:3-4 KJV
3) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

This is so, but first,

Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Exactly, 1-2 is first 3-4 follows, milk to meat.