Moral courage or Foolishness? Ukraine.

[Randy Kluth]

Putin is not in charge in the Ukraine situation. But how far should NATO go? We don't want WW3, but it may be inevitable at some point in history. Can we speed this along, or must it happen only in God's time? Should we be afraid of precipitating WW3, or being that it is in God's domain, should we just do the right thing regardless? No Fly zone? Active military participation in Ukraine. Secret military involvement?

 

[michaelvpardo]

Governments come and go throughout history. It's pure hubris to imagine that the map is complete and won't change. The Ukranian people will still be Ukrainian if their government falls and a "puppet" government is installed by Russia. The USA helped overthrow and install Governments all around the world. Some still exist, but some have fallen and all in my relatively short lifetime of 65 years. The Vietnamese remain Vietnamese. The Iranians remain Iranian. The Iraqi remain Iraqi, etc.

I know some professing Christians that see Christ as a revolutionary who has come to topple Governments and free the world from tyranny. I'm pretty sure that they're all democrats.

While scripture declares that the Kingdoms of this world will all become Christ's at His return, I see absolutely nothing that justifies rebellion in scripture or any teaching of christ that justifies war. I actually see the exact opposite.

I think that there's a soliloquy in Hamlet where Shakespeare examines the nobility of war for a righteous cause, but Christ tells His disciples to get a sword so that He can be counted with the transgressors in His arrest.

War is not an expression of love, but of judgment. So, I guess the question is whether or not its our place as a nation to judge other nations. I don't believe that the USA was ever Christian though many colonists were, so I don't expect our government to operate in a Christian fashion or according to Christian principles. However, we have on multiple occasions justified our warfare as righteously preserving our way of life, which is government speak for protecting business interests that contribute significantly to our economy, such as arms manufacturing and construction (for reconstructing destroyed infrastructure and housing.)

Vietnam fell and I'm still waiting to see the rest of the dominoes fall. Putin is being compared to Adolf Hitler, but who really knows his ambition? I think he's just a dying man who glories in his service to the Soviet Union and wants to see its scope and power restored, but power is certainly a corrupting influence.

I don't believe that Putin will end his war until he achieves his goal in waging it, but at this point I don't believe that he will live long enough to see any fruit from a victory. He's pitted brother against brother in a conflict between people with blood and cultural ties. That didn't go well for Abraham Lincoln and Lincoln was far more righteous than Vladimir Putin.

I'm inclined to believe that the only winners in a nuclear conflict will be the cockroaches. I also believe scripture and I'm not sure that these are times when the world is looking about and saying "peace and safety," so I don't believe that the end is here quite yet. I think that the man of sin will come as a peace maker with solutions to global problems. The problems exist, so I'm reasonably sure that the "Son of perdition" must be close behind.

Right now, nobody wants a world War except Volodymyr Zelensky. NATO is a defensive treaty organization intended to protect NATO countries and Ukraine is not a NATO country. If Putin has his way it never will become one, and this is a professed goal in his war. I'm just wondering who will fill the power vacuum when Putin dies. It could be someone with greater ambition or someone more reasonable, and I think we'll be finding out real soon.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Governments come and go throughout history. It's pure hubris to imagine that the map is complete and won't change. The Ukranian people will still be Ukrainian if their government falls and a "puppet" government is installed by Russia. The USA helped overthrow and install Governments all around the world. Some still exist, but some have fallen and all in my relatively short lifetime of 65 years. The Vietnamese remain Vietnamese. The Iranians remain Iranian. The Iraqi remain Iraqi, etc.

I know some professing Christians that see Christ as a revolutionary who has come to topple Governments and free the world from tyranny. I'm pretty sure that they're all democrats.

While scripture declares that the Kingdoms of this world will all become Christ's at His return, I see absolutely nothing that justifies rebellion in scripture or any teaching of christ that justifies war. I actually see the exact opposite.

I think that there's a soliloquy in Hamlet where Shakespeare examines the nobility of war for a righteous cause, but Christ tells His disciples to get a sword so that He can be counted with the transgressors in His arrest.

War is not an expression of love, but of judgment. So, I guess the question is whether or not its our place as a nation to judge other nations. I don't believe that the USA was ever Christian though many colonists were, so I don't expect our government to operate in a Christian fashion or according to Christian principles. However, we have on multiple occasions justified our warfare as righteously preserving our way of life, which is government speak for protecting business interests that contribute significantly to our economy, such as arms manufacturing and construction (for reconstructing destroyed infrastructure and housing.)

Vietnam fell and I'm still waiting to see the rest of the dominoes fall. Putin is being compared to Adolf Hitler, but who really knows his ambition? I think he's just a dying man who glories in his service to the Soviet Union and wants to see its scope and power restored, but power is certainly a corrupting influence.

I don't believe that Putin will end his war until he achieves his goal in waging it, but at this point I don't believe that he will live long enough to see any fruit from a victory. He's pitted brother against brother in a conflict between people with blood and cultural ties. That didn't go well for Abraham Lincoln and Lincoln was far more righteous than Vladimir Putin.

I'm inclined to believe that the only winners in a nuclear conflict will be the cockroaches. I also believe scripture and I'm not sure that these are times when the world is looking about and saying "peace and safety," so I don't believe that the end is here quite yet. I think that the man of sin will come as a peace maker with solutions to global problems. The problems exist, so I'm reasonably sure that the "Son of perdition" must be close behind.

Right now, nobody wants a world War except Volodymyr Zelensky. NATO is a defensive treaty organization intended to protect NATO countries and Ukraine is not a NATO country. If Putin has his way it never will become one, and this is a professed goal in his war. I'm just wondering who will fill the power vacuum when Putin dies. It could be someone with greater ambition or someone more reasonable, and I think we'll be finding out real soon.

A very interesting post! Certainly there's a lot of truth in it. I really don't know to what degree God is "judging" Ukraine. I suppose from a personal standpoint I'm bothered that I probably have distant relatives there. Both my grandfather's and my grandmother's families lived there. My grandfather escaped Russia at threat of being shot. My Finnish grandfather also disliked Russia, and may have left Finland to avoid being conscripted into the Russian army.

I don't like Russia, but it was once a Christian country. God is now using the Russian state for evil purposes. Yes, God controls evil and uses that in HIs plans, as well. I'm praying about it.

NATO has be sure not to start WW3, but neither should it be a coward and let all Europe fall, nor even let Russia try to exterminate innocent men, women, and children, both young and old.

There are people there from other countries, and people from other countries have relatives there, as well. Thanks for your interesting post!

 

[michaelvpardo]

A very interesting post! Certainly there's a lot of truth in it. I really don't know to what degree God is "judging" Ukraine. I suppose from a personal standpoint I'm bothered that I probably have distant relatives there. Both my grandfather's and my grandmother's families lived there. My grandfather escaped Russia at threat of being shot. My Finnish grandfather also disliked Russia, and may have left Finland to avoid being conscripted into the Russian army.

I don't like Russia, but it was once a Christian country. God is now using the Russian state for evil purposes. Yes, God controls evil and uses that in HIs plans, as well. I'm praying about it.

NATO has be sure not to start WW3, but neither should it be a coward and let all Europe fall, nor even let Russia try to exterminate innocent men, women, and children, both young and old.

There are people there from other countries, and people from other countries have relatives there, as well. Thanks for your interesting post!

My mother's family was from Slovakia and shares that Slavic heritage and a border with Ukraine. The Slovaks were mostly poor religious Roman Catholics running a bit on the devout side. I think that they were conquered more than once. One of my great grandfathers was from the Austrian Hungarian empire and moved around a lot. People in Europe have always tended to mingle a bit and still do.
Back when all the nations were monarchies, the nobility arranged marriages between families from different nations and trade between the joined nations encouraged more national mingling. There tends to be a lot of blood relationships between Europeans, but I guess if you go back far enough we're all related anyway.
I have no doubt that an attack on a NATO country would be met with the full military might of NATO, but Putin understands that. It's part of the reason he doesn't want Ukraine in NATO and is willing to destroy their government and replace it with Russian loyalists.

 

[Enoch111]

NATO has be sure not to start WW3...

Without China in the equation, there cannot be a WWIII. NATO was created to STOP Russian aggression, and the USA made a solemn treaty with Ukraine to protect it from Russian aggression (after they gave up their nuclear arsenal). Both entities have failed to do their moral and legal duty. In fact Putin could have been stopped in his tracks if the USA had a genuine and strong President, who had some integrity. He would have met personally with Vladimir Putin on neutral ground outside Europe, and told him in no uncertain terms "If you so much as make a small military move against Ukraine, we will have no choice except to bomb you and the Kremlin. In the meantime we will block all Russian oil exports worldwide until you sign a peace treaty with Ukraine". Trump has alluded to something similar recently.