Most New Christians Live Life With 1/3rd The Power Of Christ!

[Giuliano]

He had not been born again, no one was until Jesus rose from the dead. Our new life is sharing His resurrection, therefore none had that life until Jesus arose.

Someone like King Saul, or King David, whom God had put His Spirit upon, this was not the same thing as being born from above.

Much love!

You and I may not have the same definition of being born again.

 

[marks]

You and I may not have the same definition of being born again.

OK, good thing to notice.

To my understanding, born again is when we accept by faith the Lordship of Jesus, and the power of His resurrection. God grants us righteousness for believing His message to us, and, being now justfied, He then generates a new being that didn't exist before, yet strangely identifiable to me as "me". But not me. A new me.

God mystically joins me with Jesus on the cross, and we both die together. I then am buried with Him, and resurrected with Him, old life dying, new life beginning.

My new life is characterized by God having united me to His, so that He can say things like,

Romans 8:15 "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."

By His Spirit we cry, Abba, Father. Is it His Spirit or me crying out? I can't seem to separate the two.

"yet I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me" ~ is it my life, or Christ's life? Both, inseparably joined. In unity with God.

Before Jesus died and rose, if you kept the law, you lived by the law, and the Holy Spirit was not in them, but was upon them, and may come and go. Those who died went to Sheol, in the heart of the heart, because you cannot enter heaven unless you are born again. But now we are already in heaven, being born again.

Perhaps that will better explain what I mean.

Much love!

 

[Giuliano]

OK, good thing to notice.

To my understanding, born again is when we accept by faith the Lordship of Jesus, and the power of His resurrection. God grants us righteousness for believing His message to us, and, being now justfied, He then generates a new being that didn't exist before, yet strangely identifiable to me as "me". But not me. A new me.

God mystically joins me with Jesus on the cross, and we both die together. I then am buried with Him, and resurrected with Him, old life dying, new life beginning.

My new life is characterized by God having united me to His, so that He can say things like,

Romans 8:15 "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."

By His Spirit we cry, Abba, Father. Is it His Spirit or me crying out? I can't seem to separate the two.

"yet I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me" ~ is it my life, or Christ's life? Both, inseparably joined. In unity with God.

Before Jesus died and rose, if you kept the law, you lived by the law, and the Holy Spirit was not in them, but was upon them, and may come and go. Those who died went to Sheol, in the heart of the heart, because you cannot enter heaven unless you are born again. But now we are already in heaven, being born again.

Perhaps that will better explain what I mean.

Much love!

I see there being a birth by water, and later a birth by spirit.

Those who are born of the spirit can move like the wind, as Jesus told Nicodemus.

 

[amadeus]

I think that any space we are not willing to let the Holy Spirit fill appears like a black spot on what should be a white garment. It's empty and thus black. It can also be an invitation for unclean things to enter.

I do certainly agree. I see each person inhabiting his own small world, but before Jesus came the whole thing in each of us was corrupted and uninhabitable by God. We were dead to God.

This is similar to planet Earth. Planet Earth is capable in part of supporting physical/natural/carnal life in part...

The surface of Planet Earth consists of mostly of oceans, a very salty water in which humans cannot live [natural life]. Of the much smaller part of the surface not covered by oceans [land/dirt/soil] large portions are super dry hot [Sahara, Mojave, etc.] or cold deserts [Antarctica] making them really also uninhabitable for large populations of humans [natural life] without very substantial artificial assistance.

Similar to the world we call planet Earth, each person is a world, which is uninhabitable by God or His Son. it is corrupted. No real Life allowed, Jesus being the real Life. This real Life was lost when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Jesus brought back the possibility to each of us, but like planet Earth even when a person is born again or from above, much remains uninhabitable. He repents and the Holy Spirit moves in but only in those places cleared by repentance.

Jesus spoke of this corrupted place which was all of all men when he said:

"The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

We were for the Jesus, the Head of the Body of Christ, uninhabitable.

Jesus said that before He had completed His own course and opened the Way for each of us to become a place for Him to lay His Head... the Body of Christ on which the Head would sit/set/lay. To become part of the Body of Christ something had to change in each potential part, you and me. This little world of ours is the one we need to overcome completely. That initial repentance and receiving of the Holy Ghost/Spirit is only the beginning.

There was/is work to do, but it cannot be done before we are able to receive proper nourishment. Proper nourishment for us is the flesh [the Word, but lifeless like Ezek 37 at the start] and blood [the Holy Spirit] of Jesus. Jesus [the Word] made Himself available to this by first becoming flesh [John 1:14] and then He opened the closed Door [Matt 27:51] so we,
properly prepared, could enter in and partake of the other special tree which Adam and Eve neglected until it was too late, the Tree of Life.

To be an effective part of the Body of Christ, we must become habitable by God and His Son!
This is the process each one should be going through once we really have the Holy Spirit in us. If a person consistently quenches the Holy Spirit, the place will not increase in habitable parts, but rather on the contrary will decrease. We want to become a place where Jesus is able to lay his head.

 

[marks]

I see there being a birth by water, and later a birth by spirit.

Those who are born of the spirit can move like the wind, as Jesus told Nicodemus.

My understanding is that the birth by water is our natural birth into humanity. What does it mean to you?

 

[amadeus]

We've gone through some of this before. I will try to proceed simply without writing a book... I am not going through it all verse by verse because if God has not opened some of these things to you, I cannot. Some of them I do not fully understand as I also am seeing as through a glass darkly, but it is improving...

As you probably understand the written scriptures can be used to support many different doctrines as we both see by the large number of denominations in existence really based effectively on the same written Bibles. I will use a few scriptures, but only as an outline. I cannot convince you if God does not do it. Only He gives increases.

I don't see this passage saying a Christian can be demon possessed.

Yes, the old man of us can be demon possessed. You may believe the old man of us is dead when we are born again. I do not. I believe that when we first repent the new man is born, but he does not yet inhabit the whole of us. The old man remains in the remainder. We are double-minded. James speaks of this if you understand what he is saying. We do need to get rid of the double-mindedness. If [when] we do, we will no longer sin at all.

The new man of us will through proper nourishment received will grow within us killing the old man parts which are already dead to God to make room for more of the new parts which are Alive to God.

I say that Born Again Children of God do not host demons. You disagree, and post this batch of verses. John wrote that those born of God, that the wicked one touches them not. 1 John 5:18. What does that mean to you?

It means that the birth is incomplete or it is only complete in that part of us where overcoming has already occurred. Explain it yourself in a way that fits all the scriptures as you understand them. [You think that is what you have done, but are still growing toward Him?] That is what I do. I cannot give you everything. It must come from God. If you cannot empty yourself of things already finally established in yourself in part by your still existing old man, God cannot give you a clear vision.

The new man must completely replace the old man. Is the new man not born because much of the old man still has dominion over part of us? Like human kind on planet Earth the new man is working to overcome those parts that are still uninhabitable. God can succeed better within us than human kind can with planet Earth. You want me to give you all of the answers God has given me. I cannot do that except as He gives me the words or verses or whatever it takes. I am trying so that hopefully you will get an inkling of understanding.

Without regular and proper nourishment the new man will eventually die instead of completely killing the old man. The difference between increasing and decreasing the new man or the old man depends on us following the lead of the Holy Spirit or quenching it.

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

That sometimes wicked one do? But that's not what the passage says.[/quote]

While the birth is incomplete or the new man is still a child, what do we have?
We have someone [the old man within us] still subject to temptations. Do you still have evil thoughts? Do you still sometimes surrender to those thoughts and therefore sin? Don't answer those questions. Simply consider them within yourself. The work is not our own work, but we must allow it by not quenching the Spirit. We must support it by continuing to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

This is a bare-bones outline of where I am. There are more details with more scriptures, but if you not see where I am from this and God does not open your eyes to it, I cannot...

The key to progressing is that emptying yourself. You need to ask God to help you do that... Consider this to help you understand what I mean:

"But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:10-11

 

[amadeus]

Personally, I think the better way is to exposit a verse and see if it teaches what you say it teaches.

Let's start over. The one born of God is filled and sealed by the Holy Spirit. The prevents them from being demon possessed.

But... when a person quenches the Holy Spirit, he breaks the seal!

Greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world. John. God is more powerful than the devil or any other evil spirit.

But... He is not in all of me or all of you. He is only in part where we through the power of God have already overcome the ways of man remaining. If we had overcome it all, we would no longer be tempted. Jesus overcame all of the temptations. We must do the same. The power, the means, has been provided. Surrender is necessary!

You have been born again by the implanted Word of God that lives and remains forever. Peter. God lives in us, and guards us.

In the beginning only a baby part of us is this new man. We must increase, be increased in Him [the new man] even as we must decrease, be decreased in ourselves [the old man].

That which is born of God keeps itself, and does not sin, and the wicked one touches him not. John. We are impervious to the devil, and demons.

When the overcoming process in us is complete as it was in Jesus as per John 16:33 [confessed or declared] & Matt 26:39 [last actually overcoming by Jesus] then the whole of us is new as the old will all be dead. There will be no more temptations. Jesus defeat satan on the mountain. Jesus defeated remnants of temptation in himself that time in the garden of Gethsemene [Matt 26]. We must allow the Holy Spirit do the same thing in us. Surrender!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What happened to Judas?

John 17:11-12 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. [12] While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world. John. God is more powerful than the devil or any other evil spirit.

Romans 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
..The body is dead.
...The Spirit is Life.

“Greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world.”

Philippians 3:19-21
[19] Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) [20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: [21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Christ working “in you” whereby he is able to subdue all things unto himself. for indeed Greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

 

[Giuliano]

John 17:11-12 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. [12] While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

And Judas had cast out devils!

Mark 6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.

 

[Giuliano]

My understanding is that the birth by water is our natural birth into humanity. What does it mean to you?

Note the three times Jesus is announced as "son" in the Gospels. I think will help explain how I look at things: Of flesh, of water and of Spirit.

Remember too that Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand what he was talking about. "Born from above" is Old Testament material. I think most Christians read that conversation with an air of superiority, thinking they know more than Nicodemus; but is that right? Was Nicodemus really stupid? The conversation has more than one nuances that escape many Christian readers. I chuckle when I read how it starts:

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Why would Nicodemus say such a thing? He was a member of the Sanhedrin, so he wouldn't have been serious when he said that.

Deuteronomy 13:13 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

So Nicodemus couldn't possibly have been serious. He was testing Jesus, probing to see if he could be influenced by flattery. The rest of their conversation is also probably not what many think it is. They are like two rabbis exchanging witty remarks. Nicodemus did know what "born from above" meant; and Jesus demonstrated that he knew too. That is why Nicodemus became a believer.

 

[Enoch111]

My understanding is that the birth by water is our natural birth into humanity.

Since natural birth is a given (nothing remarkable about that), it would have no significance in connection with the spiritual and supernatural New Birth. Water is a metaphor for the Word of God (the Gospel), which is a living Word. The Gospel is the incorruptible seed of the New Birth (1 Peter 1:23-25). So the combined supernatural power of the Gospel (Rom 1:16) and the Holy Spirit produce the New Birth.

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word (Eph 5:26)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

And Judas had cast out devils!

Mark 6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.

Good point. Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

“Knew” intimacy...
As far as demons ...a few verses to consider. Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

“Greater is He who is in you than he that is in the world.”

 

[marks]

Since natural birth is a given (nothing remarkable about that), it would have no significance in connection with the spiritual and supernatural New Birth. Water is a metaphor for the Word of God (the Gospel), which is a living Word. The Gospel is the incorruptible seed of the New Birth (1 Peter 1:23-25). So the combined supernatural power of the Gospel (Rom 1:16) and the Holy Spirit produce the New Birth.

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word (Eph 5:26)

I'm thinking that to see the kingdom of heaven, you have to be born again. We are born by the ingrafting of the eternal and living Word, yes, we are also born babies through water.

Jesus refers to a new birth, and then speaks of two births, one water, one spirit. Being born human isn't enough to get you into heaven. You have to be born again, the second birth, born of the spirit. That's how I understand this.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But... when a person quenches the Holy Spirit, he breaks the seal!

Show me that in the Bible please.

Quite the claim to make if not true, wouldn't you say? So where do we find this in the Bible?

Please, amadeus, please make this journey with me. Pursue the course, let's look together to see. We are sealed in the Spirit, and who can break the King of King's seal? What scripture to you says otherwise?

Much love!

 

[marks]

But... He is not in all of me or all of you. He is only in part where we through the power of God have already overcome the ways of man remaining. If we had overcome it all, we would no longer be tempted. Jesus overcame all of the temptations. We must do the same. The power, the means, has been provided. Surrender is necessary!

This is why you need to come to understand that new life is a new creation, all things become new, all things are now of God, and we share in God's Own nature, being born His children, and we are no longer the sinner, we are children of God, through faith in Christ Alone. Not by any works we have done. All our works are garbage.

None of His works through us save us, they come only because we are born of Him. Are works cannot make us born of God, nor can they persuade God to give us rebirth.

God does not give rebirth as a reward for works, because without rebirth all works are refuse. And rebirth would become reward, not a gift, not of grace, but as the laboror receives their pay.

We are sons, spirit children of the Living God - IF - by faith in Christ alone, we have been born from above.

The overcoming the flesh is through faith in Christ in you, the hope - that is - certain expectation of good to come - Christ in you, the hope of glory. We will reach the glory we seek, but only in Jesus, only by surrender to Him, not for the purpose that we can then enter a race to salvation, but from salvation we enter a race into glory.

Much love!

 

[marks]

When the overcoming process in us is complete as it was in Jesus as per John 16:33 [confessed or declared] & Matt 26:39 [last actually overcoming by Jesus] then the whole of us is new as the old will all be dead. There will be no more temptations. Jesus defeat satan on the mountain. Jesus defeated remnants of temptation in himself that time in the garden of Gethsemene [Matt 26]. We must allow the Holy Spirit do the same thing in us. Surrender!

Do you truly believe that you will live on this earth and never again be tested?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes, the old man of us can be demon possessed. You may believe the old man of us is dead when we are born again. I do not. I believe that when we first repent the new man is born, but he does not yet inhabit the whole of us. The old man remains in the remainder. We are double-minded. James speaks of this if you understand what he is saying. We do need to get rid of the double-mindedness. If [when] we do, we will no longer sin at all.

Hi amadeus,

Do you realize, we have never jointly exegeted even one solitary passage of Scripture?

You speak of this new man as being someone besides me. "Does not yet inhabit the whole of us." I am the new man.

We are to mortify the - deeds - of the flesh. Being the new man.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Romans 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
..The body is dead.
...The Spirit is Life.

“Greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world.”

Philippians 3:19-21
[19] Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) [20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: [21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Christ working “in you” whereby he is able to subdue all things unto himself. for indeed Greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

It was really cool when I realized that "subdue all things to Himself" includes now, not just when we receive our new bodies.

And so it is by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to subdue all things in me to Himself that He does it. Because He has done it.

Much love!

 

[Helen]

I used to be young and very impressionable as a Christian. Fortunately, my salvation (justification) took place during a period when God was moving. In the late 60s, early 70s, a nationwide, very legitimate movement swept over this country bringing many people to the Lord and the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

The greatest presence of God I experienced was when I ushered for Kathryn Kuhlman at two crusades held in Jacksonville in the mid 70s. What a marvelous presence, completely not of this world.

Since then, nothing I have attended has come close to that anointing. A lot of wannabes rose up to announce their position as a replacement for Ms. Kuhlman, but all fell short. The sign following crowds generated in the 80s by the emotional displays taking place in Kenneth Hagin services, the Toronto Blessing, Rodney Howard Brown, and others was followed in the 90s by another craze, the fire that was said to bring with it impartations.

Sadly, what always takes place after all the excitement and disillusionment sets in is a body of under-studied believers focused entirely on signs with little Word in them. All sorts of spooky presumptions arise out of that mindset. God told me this, He told me that. And now there are schools where one can learn to be an apostle or prophet. Also, today, there is the New Apostolic Reformation which is overtaking the charismatic community giving folks a new version of how the church ought to be ordered, by an apostle who is accompanied by his sidekick prophet.

All this nonsense has soured many Spirit filled believers and caused loads of them to set aside anything related to Spirit filled assemblies; thus, the rise of Grace churches.

Thankfully, I have chosen to let the Lord be in charge. After two years of sitting under well balanced Bible teaching, I learned how to study and rightly divide the word of truth. I doubt I will ever again sit another hour on another metal folding chair to listen to long winded messages with no point.

Agree...my experience in 60 and 70's was the same...no move of the Spirit has even come close to what God was doing in those days.

The Wave, crested, broke, and ebbed.....