MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[Davidpt]

Six HUNDRED three score and six .
MEANING SIX HUNDRED AND SIXTY SIX . some of us learned english . Went to library and examined
the beginning of our own langauge and throughout the old , middle , early modern and modern .
IT MEANS SIX HUNDRED AND SIXTY SIX .
And the name of the beast ADDS UP to that . that is the number of his name .

1 Kings 10:14 Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

This can't be a coincidence. There has to be a connection here in some way. The connection appears to be connected with wealth. And look what we have these days, numerous wealthy elites that want all power to belong to them.

I don't possess the wisdom, nor am I going to pretend I do, in order to know the answers. But even so, it still seems to me someone is trying to tell us something here, and that maybe 1 Kings 10 holds some of the clues?

 

[IndianaRob]

Are you NOT going to tell me your definition of dispensationalism is?
I can't say yes or no if you don't tell me what you say it means.

The passage only says you can't buy or sell, it doesn't say what it is you can't buy or sell. It's vague, which gives room for whatever presupposition a reader brings to it and mine included. I lean toward "all times" because nothing in the text restricts it to one future window (I know you don't agree) and you lean toward tech because it fits the framework of an antichrist figure, a rebuilt temple, and a treaty with Israel etc.

 

[Davidpt]

The passage only says you can't buy or sell, it doesn't say what it is you can't buy or sell. It's vague, which gives room for whatever presupposition a reader brings to it and mine included. I lean toward "all times" because nothing in the text restricts it to one future window (I know you don't agree) and you lean toward tech because it fits the framework of an antichrist figure, a rebuilt temple, and a treaty with Israel etc.

It's not logical to connect that to all times. Simply because, when John saw these visions he indicated that the beast ascends out of the pit in the future. sometime post his day and time. And logic and common sense says that there can't be this MOTB to begin with, unless the beast has ascended out of the pit, and a 2nd one out of the earth, and the 2nd one then fulfills everything recorded in Rev 13 concerning it.

Not to mention, what about Rev 16:2? That verse is nonsensical if we apply that to all times. It requires everyone this first vial is poured out upon, they have to be living in the same era of time and all of them have to be alive at the same time. Vial 1, as for the remaining vials, only get poured out one time each. And not multiple times spread across thousand of years.

If you don't care to be logical about things, then don't be. But don't expect me to accept any of your theories as possibilities if there is zero logic to any of them.

 

[IndianaRob]

It's not logical to connect that to all times. Simply because, when John saw these visions he indicate that the beast ascends out of the pit in the future. sometime post his day and time. And that there can't be this MOTB unless the beast has ascended out of the pit, and a 2nd one out of the earth, and the 2nd one fulfills everything recorded in Rev 13 concerning it.

Not to mention, what about Rev 16:2? That verse is nonsensical if we apply that to all times. It requires everyone this first vial is poured out upon, they have to be living in the same era of time and all of them have to be alive at the same time. Vial 1, as the remaining vials, only get poured out one time each. And not multiple times spread across thousand of years.

If you don't care to be logical about things, then don't be. But don't expect me to accept any of your theories as possibilities if there is zero logic to any of them.

I think my view is completely logical, of course, just as you do yours. The last thing in the sequence of events in Revelation is Heavenly Jerusalem coming down from heaven.

I am assume you're waiting for that to happen int the future but I see it as already accomplished at the cross, since that's where the old covenant/earthly Jerusalem order was ended and the new one started.

 

[Davidpt]

Why does buying and selling have to relate to buying and selling material things? Revelation is a highly symbolic book, so why assume that it talking about the literal buying and selling of merchandise?

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and do not sell it, Also wisdom and instruction and understanding.

Verses like this one show that buying and selling can be understood in a figurative sense. Having the mark of the beast and worshiping the beast go hand in hand. Revelation 13:8 says that those who worship the beast are those whose names are not written in the book of life. So, having the mark of the beast means you're not saved. How can the ability to purchase material things have anything to do with whether you're saved or not? It can't. So, I believe not being able to buy or sell without the mark of the beast means that no one can freely buy or sell their beliefs/philosophies/religion without the mark of the beast. Which means those trying to sell (preach) the truth (the gospel) are met with severe opposition that tries to prevent anyone from buying (accepting, believing) it. Spiritual truths are repeatedly illustrated symbolically in the book of Revelation. Taking these things literally results in some unbiblical conclusions such as thinking that having the literal ability to buy or sell merchandise could somehow determine whether someone is saved or not (has their name written in the book of life or not).

I gave your post to an AI then asked it to point out any and all holes in your approach here.

The following are the holes it found. You are likely unwilling to accept the critque since it was an AI doing the critiquing. That's your choice then. But even so, I don't see this AI not making sense here.

This AI:

This is a fascinating interpretation, and it correctly identifies that Revelation is a highly symbolic book. However, when subjected to strict textual analysis and logical consistency, this approach contains several significant holes.

Here are the primary flaws in this interpreter's approach when compared to the actual text:

### 1. It Creates a Backwards, Unbiblical Logical Loop
The interpreter claims that "buying" means accepting the truth, and "selling" means preaching the gospel. Let's apply that to the actual text of Revelation 13:17: *"no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark..."*
* If this figurative view is correct, the verse would mean: **"No one can accept or preach the truth, *unless they have the mark of the beast*."**
* This makes no sense. The mark of the beast is consistently presented as the absolute opposite of following Christ. If having the mark of the beast is a prerequisite for preaching or accepting the gospel, the interpreter has fundamentally broken the theology of the entire book.

### 2. A False Dichotomy Regarding Salvation
The interpreter asks: *"How can the ability to purchase material things have anything to do with whether you're saved or not?"*
This sets up a false premise. The text never says that buying merchandise *determines* your salvation. Rather, it teaches the exact opposite: **Your salvation (or lack thereof) determines your ability to buy merchandise.**
The sequence in the text is:
1. People refuse to worship the beast (because they belong to Christ).
2. Because they refuse to worship, they refuse the mark.
3. Because they refuse the mark, the beast system economically boycotts them.
The inability to buy and sell is a *consequence* of being saved and refusing to compromise, not the *cause* of salvation.

### 3. It Ignores the Immediate Demographic Context
Revelation 13:16 (the verse immediately preceding the one in question) says the mark is enforced upon *"small and great, rich and poor, free and slave."*
* If the passage is only about the exchange of philosophical or religious ideas, why does the Holy Spirit specifically divide the population by **economic and social class**?
* Terms like "rich and poor" and "free and slave" only make sense in a literal, socio-economic context. A slave and a free man both have minds to believe the gospel, but their ability to participate in literal commerce is vastly different. The interpreter ignores verse 16 to make verse 17 fit their theory.

### 4. Inconsistent Use of Greek Vocabulary
The interpreter relies on Proverbs 23:23 to prove "buy/sell" can be figurative. But we must look at how John uses these exact Greek words (*agorazō* = buy; *pōleō* = sell) in Revelation.
* Just two chapters later, in Revelation 18, Babylon the Great falls. John uses these exact same words repeatedly to describe literal merchants (*emporios*) weeping because no one buys (*agorazō*) their literal cargo anymore—gold, silver, cinnamon, horses, chariots, and even the literal "bodies and souls of men" (slaves) (Rev 18:11-13).
* To force Revelation 13:17 to be purely figurative while Revelation 18 uses the exact same commercial vocabulary for literal physical trade is inconsistent exegesis.

### 5. Breaking the Literary Parallelism of the Passage
Revelation 13:15 says the beast has power to **kill** those who refuse to worship the image.
Revelation 13:17 says the beast prevents those without the mark from **buying or selling**.
In Hebrew apocalyptic literature, these two verses are parallel punishments meant to coerce worship. One is lethal (the sword), the other is non-lethal but equally devastating (economic starvation). If you make verse 17 purely figurative ("they can't share ideas"), you destroy the parallel. The beast is depicted as a totalitarian dictator who uses the sword *and* the purse to force compliance.

### 6. The "Genre Mixing" Fallacy
The interpreter takes a metaphor from Wisdom Literature (Proverbs 23:23) and uses it to overwrite Apocalyptic Literature (Revelation 13:17).
Yes, Proverbs uses "buying truth" as a metaphor for pursuing wisdom. But apocalyptic literature uses extreme, dramatic physical symbols to represent literal, physical realities. For example, Revelation speaks of literal "famines" (Rev 6:8) using the symbol of a black horse. If we applied the interpreter's logic consistently, we would have to argue that the famines in Revelation aren't literal lack of food, but just a "lack of spiritual truth"—which ignores the physical death that accompanies the famine.

### Summary
The interpreter's approach falls apart because it isolates a single metaphor from Proverbs, ignores the immediate context of Revelation 13:16, creates a logical paradox where only the damned can preach the gospel, and fails to recognize that economic sanctions are a standard, literal tool of physical persecution used by totalitarian regimes throughout history (including the Roman Empire John's original audience was facing).