Music Piracy

[tim_from_pa]

The perfect leader wants us to obey the imperfect leaders. This is explained by the parable of the "hireling" in John 10. We are still told to be submissive and obedient to them.
If I may digress as well, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Yes, preachers are going to preach Romans 13 to all the wussy Christians when we come under martial law and they want us to turn in our guns. I plan to obey the mandate of Romans 13 when I rebel against that and keep mine. Romans 13 is one of the most misunderstood chapters.As for copyright stuff, your argument does not hold water. You said "Don't blame me for what the computer does...." That's the same defense that those nabbed by the RIAA said. "We turned off the file sharing part and it reactivated itself." Nope, the goons did not buy that, even though it was true (and these programs and Microsoft applications do what they want anyway, and oftentimes change your choices, but its always the little guy's fault). But file sharing blatantly is the biggest mistakes these kids made. They should have gone more under cover and this would have NEVER been an issue if they kept copies to themselves, and should not be one now. That's what I do; my music is private---- I don't receive or share anything from file sharing anyway because I don't like viruses.As for you, turn in your computer if you want to go by the strictest definition. A song and dance trying to reason around this is futile.

 

[Mikey]

(Shan Missions;39364)
If someone gives you something and you accept it. Are you to be blamed?He gives you! You take it! Are you to be blamed? Nonsense!
You don't have to accept everything anyone is giving you. Also what you're saying is different from what I was saying. I said just because it is possible for you to do something, doesn't mean you should or it is a good thing to do. Anyway I am agreeing with what Zail is saying. I was going to bring up Romans 13 too.

 

[Mikey]

tim_from_pa I am interested in why Romans 13 is often misunderstood. Maybe you could link me to a website.

 

[zail]

(tim_from_pa;39589)
If I may digress as well, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
That's what I'd like to know… to me, nothing. I have no reason to get caught up in someone's faults (RIAA). The folly of another shouldn't change a command of The Lord in my sight. I only know that God's Word says we need to submit to all power given over us. Without really proving otherwise scripturally, then I only see apathy towards God's Word. Please tell me if that concept is wrong. I'd love to be strengthened in my understanding of The Word, if I'm out of bounds on that. Beyond that, piracy hurts the artist. What does that have to do with tea prices? (tim_from_pa;39589)
As for you, turn in your computer if you want to go by the strictest definition. A song and dance trying to reason around this is futile.
This is only your definition. I think you avoided my argument to push it back on a sinister organization once again. This discussion is all about "Music Piracy", not the sinful agendas of the ones in charge of making the rules (assuming that the RIAA is both sinister and sinful). To me, bringing all that up is "song and dance" (as you put it). We are responsible for our own actions. On the other hand, what in the world is wrong with saying it's okay to do something that neither God's nor man's law have a rule agenst (i.e. computer ownership)? Unless I tell my computer to steal music, I'm not responsible for whatever little information is stored on my hard drive... or whatever it is that's an equal offence in your sight, "by strictest definition". The only actual definition of piracy is linked to intruding between someone and their investment (because it's robbery), not storing sampled information by default. Thankfully, God looks at the heart (1 Sam. 16:7). If I'm told that I'm breaking a law of man by having a computer, THEN I trust that He'll see my resulting submission as fearing Him; especially if that means giving up something selfish which hinders my ability to give "tribute to whom tribute is due". Otherwise, I'm not prone to manipulation through another's excusive exaggeration. I also would like to understand how Romans 13 is misunderstood. It looks pretty clear to me: "there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God." The only exception to adherance I can fathom is when submission has us directly choosing to bow down to idols and worship other gods (so maybe any rule that forces us to disobey The Lord doesn't apply to us). Is buying music an abomination to God? Maybe He wants me to have free music and force musicians to struggle for what I would be willing to pay for if only He could prove to me that He want's me to. Is that it? (please pardon my sarcasm, it's the only way I know how to picture the blunt offence I see in piracy) I should study some of those Old Testament Laws... do you have any that would apply? I'm really big on correct context and understanding the WHOLE Bible, so please let me know. Unfortunately I've only really been studying "hard" (still not enough) for a few years. Hey, thanks for posting back. I hope we can be buds sometime.

 

[tim_from_pa]

(Mikey;39609)
tim_from_pa I am interested in why Romans 13 is often misunderstood. Maybe you could link me to a website.
Sure. here's a good article stating the point of view that I am trying to convey:http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/martia...martial_law.htmKeep in mind that any form of tyranny is actually against God-given law and Paul was not endorsing one to follow that. Rather, in that case, it is scriptural to disobey the government and even go to jail, and the Lord will bless such a person.

 

[Mikey]

(tim_from_pa;39898)
Sure. here's a good article stating the point of view that I am trying to convey:http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/martia...martial_law.htmKeep in mind that any form of tyranny is actually against God-given law and Paul was not endorsing one to follow that. Rather, in that case, it is scriptural to disobey the government and even go to jail, and the Lord will bless such a person.
Ok I understand. But how is a law against downloading music evil? How is this forcing you to sin and disobey God? I think Romans 13 still applies.

 

[Shan Missions]

What is wrong to download the music and listen?They allow us to download and listen.Nothing is wrong unless we download them and make profit out of it.

 

[zail]

(Mikey;40336)
Ok I understand. But how is a law against downloading music evil? How is this forcing you to sin and disobey God? I think Romans 13 still applies.
I totally agree. Shan, please read the arguments above. In a nutshell, taking for free something that's sold is stealing. It hurts the artist when they don't make money for something they invest so much time/money into. If everyone stole music, I doubt there would be any. Again, just because it's possible to do something doesn't make it lawful to do. It'd be impossible to catch everyone that distributes stolen music. It's availability is illegal and downloading it is also illegal. Both infringe on copywrite. Although very few will ever be caught and punished by man, God sees our heart. It's our obligation to "render therefore to all their dues" (from Romans 13). This is a challange for myelf as well. I'm currently in the process of purchasing all previously stolen/pirated albums and software that I want to keep. Otherwise, I better get rid of it all. It's a hard pill to swollow, but we need to keep the mindset of the Lord being pleased by our hearts. Following His word makes us greater in His eyes/kingdom (from Matthew 5:12-20). Is there a better realm to be great in? Definitely not just in the realm of owning media.

 

[Shan Missions]

Did you ever recorded TV program and watch it later because you don' thave time to watch when it's broadcast?Did you ever download a Christian broadcast on internet and watch it?Did you ever download a Christian music from the Church uploaded on the web and listen?Are they all sin?If it is so, keeping the rain in your reservour for your comsumption later is also SIN.Does God say you can keep the rain for years in your tank?Be honest.

 

[zail]

If you can prove that any of those things are against a law of God or a law of man, I think you have a good point. Otherwise, from my perspective, you're just manipulating scripture to support disobedience to scripture. Why would the Lord contradict Himself by saying "render therefore to all their dues", followed by your "collect whatever you want for free" point of view? I think you have to agree that there's a difference between gifts and merchandise. Collect all the free gifts you want, but it's a crime to collect merchandise that's not given by the owners short of your payment. Devices like TiVo are lawful. Downloading broadcasts are lawful. I don't know what you mean about music a Church uploaded... but hopefully the church itself isn't breaking the law... I'd like to assume not, so I'd say that's lawful too. I certainly hope there's no law against collecting rain water: a gift from God (Job 5:10). On the other hand, people's merchandice can't just be viewed as a gift from God even if they are sitting out in the open to be taken. This is why portions of Romans 13 exists; tell tell us as such. As followers, we need to be careful how we reason with the context of scripture. If I wanted, I could use your same conclusions to assume it's okay to "gather my rain" from various stores at the mall... or sneak into movie theatres, airplanes and cruiseboats. I could just say to myself "Shoot man, all of the cars down at the car lot are all just sitting there. I obviously need one more than they do... I should just take me one of them. I'm allowed to collect 'rain' aren't I?" The only reason these other forms of theft aren't quite so easy to justify, as I've said before, is because I'm actually very likely to get caught doing them. The danger of those situations tells my common sense to obey the law. Common sense can't be the deciding factor of what we do. Since when is what makes sense to us supposed to be our standard of following the King? We need to submit to scripture over what we can reason with our big imaginations and even bigger selfish desires. Again, God sees the heart of the issue. Are we going to obey His word and submit to "all powers", or are we going to go our own way to get what we want, and twist His words to redeem ourselves? We all need to be careful. You said "be honest" Shan, but sorry to also be so blunt. I just think it's that simple.

 

[Mighty Bear]

Watch this video http://youtube.com/watch?v=aNaKWXqXkhwLyrics are on the right, click on the link that says "more" to bring it down."But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden."Revelation 2:24 (ESV)

 

[ForYou]

Hmm,it is so hard to think these programs where you can download the music is illegal,just because Limewire( A major one) has not been shut-down. I just really realized it could be it has been something I never thought once about I just did it. Itunes is great,but paying .99 gets expensive if you are an avid music listener. But I will quit!

 

[Mighty Bear]

I just joined my CB account with zoints, you can visit it here http://mighty-bear.zoints.com/

 

[tim_from_pa]

Here's a link to an article that I will definely stay tuned to.http://blog.wired.com/music/2008/03/tanya-andersen.htmlThis Lady is filing a counter suit to the RIAA, accusing them of all kinds of things.One thing the RIAA goons openly admit to is using Media Sentry to do their investigations that foolishly boast that they can search hard drives without the owners knowing it.Excuuuuuse me. This is supposedly America? If they can't live by our (constitutional) laws, then maybe they should go back to where they came from, some 3rd-world gutter or wherever.If I did the same thing to a corporation and admitted it, they'd lock me up and throw away the key faster than I could say my one-syllable last name with outcries that I'm a criminal.Yet this big money-making racket can just extort money off of dead grandmother's, little kids, college kids (never a rich lawyer's or politicians' kid) and anyone else that cannot stand up to their multi-billion dollars just to make a few extra bucks, and act like its normal or legal?I'd like to see them wiggle out of this lawsuit. And if they manage to get away with something that the likes of the common man would clearly go to jail for 100 years, then all I can say is that the problem is far greater than the RIAA. It's our legal system. Nobody by any stretch of a schizophrenic imagination can say what the RIAA is doing is sane, nor legal, "just because downloading is wrong". Any Judge, jury or whoever else standing behind the likes needs serious help, and maybe such crooked justice would just be the start of the demise of our nation.

 

[His By Grace]

That is sad. I'm wondering right now what is on God's mind. Tim, I must admit, though, that I have taken a copied cd from a friend and not thought another thing about it. The problem doesn't just lie with big companies. It lies within each of us not owning up to the "small" sins too. Integrity is truly a lost word in our society. We want to save our own skins no matter what when the truth is people would respect us more and trust us more if we were always honest. I heard something refreshing on the radio yesterday. A police officer had a traffic violation and he gave himself a ticket. He felt that even though this would be on his record and cost him over a hundred dollars, it was the right and honest thing to do. Oh, that we would do the same from the smallest American to the most important in the world's eyes. Help us, Lord to act like you since you formed us in your image! May our inside image look like the outside image you made us to be.

 

[zail]

Exactly, God's Word remains regardless of others' sins; even more so. We still have the choice to obey Him. He gave us His Word so we can know how to respond in the midst of corruption... not how to judge and ignore it for the sake of stealing from musicians. On the other hand, there are still grey lines that remain in my mind... Maybe they've taken place in the past weeks, with me discussing this topic. I wonder if it's okay to listen to a burnt CD someone made me for a little while before I destroy it, give it back or pay for my own copy (if I like it). I wonder if it's okay to use pirated software until purchasing a software key later on, when I decide I want to keep using the software. The reason these are grey lines to me is because if I'm allowing myself to "sample" CDs before buying them, I justify the length of my "sampling". Days turn to weeks. Most the time, I realize that in the long run, I'll get tired of the music or the software will become out of date. It's then that I usually dispose of pirated CDs so I don't wind up breaking a law of man, and therefore, a Law of God. Afterwards, I wonder if I "got my moneys worth" in that few weeks of usage. Maybe just using or sampling media I don't own for even a very short time is stealing if I've enjoyed it fully and won't ever buy it. I ask myself: "Can't we look at sampling something as just borrowing it from the person whom has lent it to us though? Would it change anything if my friends got renter’s licenses and I paid them a fee to 'rent' their media until I'm done with it? It's not like we'd both be using a program at the same time, or listening to the same CD at the same time... This just saves the trouble of moving data and CDs back and fourth." I have trouble with these kinds of thoughts. I know people are prone to justify what they want... but I don't want to betray God's Word for media that I'll care nothing about in a matter of months or years. Anyone have thoughts on any of that? Buying it is always a waste of money in the light of eternity. Life is short in the scope of the kingdom. Is sampling something for a week the same thing as us "sampling" until we die (stealing)?

 

[Mikey]

Zail, I think it is considered borrowing if you are lent the original CD, thus the owner cannot listen to it while you have it. As for software, usually companies have trial versions to download. Try them out that way. Also this will expose to you what things you NEED and what are WANTS. Perhaps it is better if you spend your time reading the bible or praying than messing around with software. (I use to play with programs out of boredom, later realizing how much time I just wasted). And if it is something you will really use then be honest and buy it. You will feel better in the end.

 

[zail]

Yep, I agree. Thanks for responding. I've just been realizing my own excuses based on technical "reasons" to think certian things are okay. I only struggle with the useful and expensive software, otherwise I'd feel too bad to keep it or just gladly fork over the $10 to $100 for the legal rights to use it. Even if we tried, for our whole lives, it'd just be too hard to live by evey law and guideline of the Bible. I guess it just shows that we're all sinners without any exceptions. At the same time, this is one of those Biblical issues that I feel drawn to carry out to the best of my ability. Maybe it's because I'm a musican. I can understand how it would feel to have my investment be taken out from under me by people (Christians at that) who want it for free. I thing we all ought to "render all dues" even though it's so hard in our digital culture.

 

[tim_from_pa]

....useful and expensive software
That's why I'm going Linux soon. I'm tired of Microsoft and all these kiss-up companies with them. And as for music files on my computer, or anything else for that matter, it's still none of any one's business. Like I said before, the whole issue of this music piracy started when there was file sharing on the Internet. It threatens them to make distributions that quickly. However, my point is that just having a file (as opposed to distributing it) is not different than a tape recording copy in the old days. That was never an issue, and should not be now. I hope everyone realizes that if it were up to the RIAA, you could not RIP your own CD's either. Heck, Microsoft put the button there, but it's always the little guy's fault anyway and must answer to what they did, right?I think people have to learn to be perceptive as to what is really going on here. The music piracy issue is about as nonsensical as believing the civil war was over slavery. The real issue, in part, has to do with money (always follow the money trail) and granting too much power to people. Let's face it, the likes of the Internet threatens big shots both in the corporate world and government. We 'peons' may actually be able to control things then.I am throughly convinced that this nation, if it could, would want to censure the Internet like China. In addition, the likes of Microsoft constantly spy on computers when they communicate to their servers. It's getting downright scary. That's why I'm going open source. And I don't pay for that. Is that wrong? (Rhetorical question)

 

[zail]

I totally agree with your concepts, just not your decisions. I guess it's okay though. Like you said, it's not really my business. However, I think scripture remains firm on us following the law... whatever the law actually is. But I'm just a broken record at this point. At any rate, when I release my newly created music and video game software, I just have to understand this day in age that I'm not doing it for profit. Media is no longer a business, it's just an expense for the sake of art. Too bad. Sucks to be me, hahah.