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Must Read - Christianity Vs Islam - False Prophet

Discussion in 'NonChristian Help Forum' started by Amy, Aug 27, 2007.

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  1. ami

    ami New Member

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    Yaqub,Thank you for that explanation. That is actually what i was trying to show ricky. If Mohamed wasn't sure with what he has seen on that particular day in that cave and if he tought he was possesed with an evil spirt, which he might have been, then that would put ricky's explanation about the decent of the Qoran from Allah to Gibril and to Mohamed in a big question mark. Be plessed
     
  2. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Amy)
    Mary was not a prophet but a pious woman. Any human can be afraid in such a situation BUT prophets are choosen ones, some before birth and have predictions about them coming in the Holy books. A choosen one has an agenda and least to be afraid off.Hope you get my point.
    Luke 1:1:11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. 1:12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. Event the chosen like Zacharia, Abraham, Moses(CMIIW) pbuh, are getting fear at the firsttime on something that they don't recognize before, but later on they don't feel like the way the first time coming.After the first time seeing by prophet Muhammad s.a.w. he(pbuh) doesn't fear anymore.Ami, does after the first meet with the angel, does Muhammad s.a.w. feels fear for the second meet ?Wallahu a'lam.
     
  3. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(ami)
    Yaqub,Thank you for that explanation. That is actually what i was trying to show ricky. If Mohamed wasn't sure with what he has seen on that particular day in that cave and if he tought he was possesed with an evil spirt, which he might have been, then that would put ricky's explanation about the decent of the Qoran from Allah to Gibril and to Mohamed in a big question mark. Be plessed
    I think it is something natural for human being to fear for something that they haven't seeing before. And that's appear also to the prophet Muhammad s.a.w.And on your guessing statement that I bold, i think you are to generalize of it, if he already been possesed or meet with the evil spirit, ofcourse he would not ask to his wife regarding to what had been appear on him. And again there isn't in any case that any possesed person still remembered what has been happen to him/her. In the case of Muhammad s.a.w. he still remember all the thing that has been appear to him precisely.That is in my logic and opinion.And one another thing, I don't agree with what you said that Angel Gabriel was terrorize people regarding on Muhammad s.a.w. case, because the fact is, just Muhammad s.a.w. who getting fear like the way Zachariah did.And regarding Angel terrorize people, well indeed foretold in the bible that Angel of God terrorize people.Wallahu a'lam.
     
  4. ami

    ami New Member

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    Ricky,Read what the angel said to him right after that on verse 13( highlighted in blue) [11] And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.[12] And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.[13] But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.That is clear and neat. The angel took out his fear and told a clear message. Zacharias didn't have a doubt about what he saw. He didn't say he was possesed by an evil spirit or run scared or asked anbody's opinion on what he saw. The same is true to every individual in the bible to whom the angles appeared.Now had the spirt that Mohamemd saw was an angel, messenger from God, then he wouldn't leave him with such uncertainity,fear, doubt. What was suprising to me was that Mohammed went to his wife who couldn't help him sort out what he saw in the cave(an evil spirit as Mohammed said or something else). Then they went together to her uncle's. who told Mohammed that the spirit he saw was Gabriel even if he was not there with him at the time. Now the question is, who's report is right Mohammed's(the evil spirit) or his wife's uncle( Gabreil)? I leave the answer to you ricky and the other muslims.Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist 1 John, Chapter 4, 003
     
  5. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(ami)
    Ricky,Read what the angel said to him right after that on verse 13( highlighted in blue) [11] And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.[12] And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.[13] But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.That is clear and neat. The angel took out his fear and told a clear message.
    Yes, but at the first time the angel terrorize zacharia that causing him troubled and fear, right ?Or is it just zacharia own fearness that has appear on him because of the seing the angel at the first time ?(ami)
    Zacharias didn't have a doubt about what he saw. He didn't say he was possesed by an evil spirit or run scared or asked anbody's opinion on what he saw.
    How do you know what his feel at that time ? Are you was him at that time ?What you got on the bible, is only what the people knew about what happen to him without any detailed, correct ? Or is it a detailed situation about what he is feel at time ?("ami")
    The same is true to every individual in the bible to whom the angles appeared.
    They all got fear at the first time correct ?And because making scared of Muhammad then you judge the Angel Gabriel doing a terrorize to Muhammad s.a.w. or it just Muhammad s.a.w. feeling ? And if that appear on the bible, it just fine, and the angel wasn't make terrorize, by the same time they all got frighten at the first time, am i correct ami ?
    Now had the spirit that Mohamemd saw was an angel, messenger from God, then he wouldn't leave him with such uncertainity, fear, doubt.
    Now i'm asking you, does the angel terrorize Muhammad s.a.w. ?Or is it just what Muhammad s.a.w. feeling at that time ?Actually if you read what the message that messenger of God (Gabriel) revealed to prophet Muhammad at that time, you will see it couldn't be from evil spirit, it just Muhammad s.a.w. not realized it at the first time. ("ami")
    What was suprising to me was that Mohammed went to his wife who couldn't help him sort out what he saw in the cave(an evil spirit as Mohammed said or something else). Then they went together to her uncle's. who told Mohammed that the spirit he saw was Gabriel even if he was not there with him at the time.
    Actually if you deeply read what inside on what happen, that is a proof that Muhammad s.a.w. doesn't know anything about Bible at the first time.And his wife, i think she knew what creature it was, it just to make sure of it, she take Muhammad s.a.w. to meet her uncle to clarify it.("ami")
    Now the question is, who's report is right Mohammed's(the evil spirit) or his wife's uncle( Gabreil)?
    About what ? About the angel ? Oh by the where does you got info that prophet Muhammad s.a.w. got possesed ? Or telling that he was possesed evil spirit, i would like to know about it [​IMG].
    I leave the answer to you ricky and the other muslims.

    Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist 1 John, Chapter 4, 003
    And moslem tought that Jesus was a flesh and just a flesh, nothing more. Just like the way John prescribe it. But who was saying Jesus was flesh and God also ? Well, you know the answer [​IMG].Wallahu a'lam.
     
  6. ami

    ami New Member

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    Ricky,i thought what i said was clear. Human beings have fear that is sure and that is why the angles comfort the ppl before giving the message. The spirit that Mohammed saw didn't bother about Mohamed's feeling and mohammed was hurt as a result.If you don't know the meaning of terror,here is the meaning i found in the cambridge dictionary.Definitionterrorize, UK USUALLY terrorise verb [T] to make someone feel very frightened by threatening to kill or hurt them:Now back to your answer. The angel did not terrorize Zacharia or anyother individual in the bible because No one was either threatened to death nor was hurt.What about in the case of Mohamed, Mohamed was threathned to death because he said so, the spirit held him tight that mohamed thought he would die. Not one time but three times mohamed was threatened. Was Mohamed hurt? of course he was. He was hurt while the spirit was there and and after the incident. That incident had an effect on him. He was hurt, he thought he was possesed by demon. He was confused and this continued for sometime. He even once tried to kill himself by dropping himself from a clif. That is a hut man doing that.For your information Mohammed was thought the bible by his wife's uncle. May be he knew what happened to him better than his wife or his wife's uncle. Cheers
     
  7. yaqub

    yaqub New Member

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    (Ricky W;18043)
    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim
    Peace to you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    And moslem tought that Jesus was a flesh and just a flesh, nothing more. Just like the way John prescribe it. But who was saying Jesus was flesh and God also ? Well, you know the answer [​IMG].Wallahu a'lam.
    Read 1 John from beginning to end, will you, and see what else John said about Jesus?"No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also." (1 John 2:23)
     
  8. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(ami)
    Ricky,i thought what i said was clear. Human beings have fear that is sure and that is why the angles comfort the ppl before giving the message. The spirit that Mohammed saw didn't bother about Mohamed's feeling and mohammed was hurt as a result.
    Ami to make it clear, now i'm asking you whic source do you use that telling Muhammad s.a.w. was hurt.(ami)
    If you don't know the meaning of terror,here is the meaning i found in the cambridge dictionary.Definitionterrorize, UK USUALLY terrorise verb [T] to make someone feel very frightened by threatening to kill or hurt them:Now back to your answer. The angel did not terrorize Zacharia or anyother individual in the bible because No one was either threatened to death nor was hurt.
    Read again about the source that you has regarding what happened to Muhammad s.a.w. and Gabriel. Does Gabriel threathing Muhammad like the way threathing to kill or hurt him ?Now take a look what the hell angel of God doing by this verse ?I hope you questioned as well ?I Chronicles 21:21:16 And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.21:20 And Ornan turned back, and saw the angel; and his four sons with him hid themselves. Now Ornan was threshing wheat. 21:27 And the LORD commanded the angel; and he put up his sword again into the sheath thereof. 21:28 At that time when David saw that the LORD had answered him in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite, then he sacrificed there. 21:29 For the tabernacle of the LORD, which Moses made in the wilderness, and the altar of the burnt offering, were at that season in the high place at Gibeon. 21:30 But David could not go before it to enquire of God: for he was afraid because of the sword of the angel of the LORD. This is what I said before, the angel of God indeed terrorize people.("ami")
    What about in the case of Mohamed, Mohamed was threathned to death because he said so, the spirit held him tight that mohamed thought he would die. Not one time but three times mohamed was threatened. Was Mohamed hurt? of course he was. He was hurt while the spirit was there and and after the incident. That incident had an effect on him. He was hurt, he thought he was possesed by demon. He was confused and this continued for sometime. He even once tried to kill himself by dropping himself from a clif. That is a hut man doing that.
    Ami, as I said before, i need the source on what you telling above. I would like to know about it. If the source was hadith, show me the hadith, if the source is Quran show which verse. Can you ?
    For your information Mohammed was thought the bible by his wife's uncle. May be he knew what happened to him better than his wife or his wife's uncle. Cheers
    Proof me, that Muhammad s.a.w. was learning bible from his wife uncle.And proof me, about your guessing that Muhammad knew what happened better than his wife or his wife's uncle. Because from what i seing your argument was contradict between one and to others.Wallahu a'lam
     
  9. Amy

    Amy New Member

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    (ami;18050)
    Ricky,i thought what i said was clear. Human beings have fear that is sure and that is why the angles comfort the ppl before giving the message. The spirit that Mohammed saw didn't bother about Mohamed's feeling and mohammed was hurt as a result.If you don't know the meaning of terror,here is the meaning i found in the cambridge dictionary.Definitionterrorize, UK USUALLY terrorise verb [T] to make someone feel very frightened by threatening to kill or hurt them:Now back to your answer. The angel did not terrorize Zacharia or anyother individual in the bible because No one was either threatened to death nor was hurt.What about in the case of Mohamed, Mohamed was threathned to death because he said so, the spirit held him tight that mohamed thought he would die. Not one time but three times mohamed was threatened. Was Mohamed hurt? of course he was. He was hurt while the spirit was there and and after the incident. That incident had an effect on him. He was hurt, he thought he was possesed by demon. He was confused and this continued for sometime. He even once tried to kill himself by dropping himself from a clif. That is a hut man doing that.For your information Mohammed was thought the bible by his wife's uncle. May be he knew what happened to him better than his wife or his wife's uncle. Cheers
    Well said Ami [​IMG]In addition, historical facts tells us that muhammed had epilepsy. This fact is also emphasised in hadiths, that whenever these so called revelations came Muhammed use to go into trans and white stuff use to come out of his mouth. People at that time were naive and didn't know much about the fits so anything canny was related to God. Muhammed took advantage of his medical condition and mixed it with the facts told by the high society's religion. Khaddija a wealthy woman and the first wife was indeed a great influence.
     
  10. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Amy)
    Well said Ami [​IMG]In addition, historical facts tells us that muhammed had epilepsy. This fact is also emphasised in hadiths, that whenever these so called revelations came Muhammed use to go into trans and white stuff use to come out of his mouth. People at that time were naive and didn't know much about the fits so anything canny was related to God. Muhammed took advantage of his medical condition and mixed it with the facts told by the high society's religion. Khaddija a wealthy woman and the first wife was indeed a great influence.
    [​IMG] may God give me a patience.By the way which fact do you talking about Amy [​IMG] ?By the way, how come christian never condemn nor humaliated the prophet in the OT, which is often broke God Rule ?Such as David who commit adultery and murder (na'udzubillaah), and amazingly he doesn't death because broke 2 rule of Ten Commandment ?Jacob (CMIIW) who often make a lie (na'udzubillaah) ?Wallahu a'lam.
     
  11. Amy

    Amy New Member

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    The Qur'an is one man's ticket from mediocrity:Once begun, the Qur'an took on a "life" of its own, because Muhammad saw how it magnified himself to a powerful position in front of his band of murderous robber followers. The Qur'an is also one uneducated man's (Muhammad) feeble attempt to piece together Christian and Jewish theology. Throwing about pieces of his limited knowledge of what he learned about the Christian and Jewish religions provided Muhammad a way to elevate himself further in front of his listeners. Ample evidence suggests that before Muhammad began raping, murdering and pillaging for profit, he was viewed as a lunatic, especially by Jews, Christians, Medina and Mecca Arabs, and Hindus. The Jews professed disgust at a prophet whose chief concern was his harem of many wives. During his early 13 years of preaching his message in Mecca, Muhammad was not driven toward violence. He was also in fact tolerant and cooperative; even in the face of boycotts by the Meccans against him and his new converts. After Muhammad moved to Medina, however, Muhammad turned into a violent, cruel, lustful and intolerant man, who personally led raids on innocent caravans. Beginning in Medina, Muhammad spread Islam militarily. Muhammad accompanied his terrorist army on 27 raids . Muhammad, the warrior non-prophet who made no prophecies, fought himself in 9 of these raids: Badr, al-Mustaliq, Hunayn, Uhud, al-Khandaq, Qurayza, Khaybar, al-Ta'if, and the occupation. Muhammad's early attempts to unite with Christians and Jews were not successful Because Muhammad thought the "People of the Book" (Jews & Christians) also claimed allegiance to this same God he invented, Muhammad's early recitations about Christianity and Judaism in the Qur'an were irenic (Tending to promote peace; conciliatory): "O believers, be you God's helpers, as Jesus, Mary's son, said to the Apostles. 'Who will be my helpers unto God?' The Apostles said, 'We will be helpers of God' " (Sura 61:14). When Muhammad started preaching his new religion in Mecca he was conciliatory and appeasing to Christians. He told them: "We believe in What has been sent down to us and sent down to you, our God is the same as your God." Sura 29:46. And in Sura 2:62 it says; "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. "Christians and Jews in Muhammad's time treated Muhammad as a False Prophet:Later, as Christians and Jews treated this self proclaimed prophet with sustain, recitations regarding the "People of the Book" (both Jews and Christians) became more belligerent: Compare this with what happened later, in Medina, after Muhammad gained strength and Christians refused to follow Muhammad's Allah. Allah then tells him to "Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day...Nor acknowledge the religion of truth (Islam), (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay Jizya (tribute tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued". Sura 9:29 "And the Jews say: Uzair (possibly Ezra) is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; " (Sura 9:30); and (The difficulty with Sura 9:30 above is with Uzair/Ezra, is the fact that no historical evidence can be adduced to prove that any Jewish sect, however heterodox, ever subscribed to such a tenet. What grounds were there for the accusation? It is probably a figment of Mohammed's own imagination.)"O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." (Sura 5:51).Are the following words what one might expect to hear from an all-knowing, benevolent deity? Or, are they the words one might expect from an Arab terrorist who needs to discipline his marauding troops today - and even in the 7th century (Muhammad)?- Sura 5.38 "And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise."
     
  12. Amy

    Amy New Member

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    (Ricky W;18099)
    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim[​IMG] may God give me a patience.By the way which fact do you talking about Amy [​IMG] ?By the way, how come christian never condemn nor humaliated the prophet in the OT, which is often broke God Rule ?Such as David who commit adultery and murder (na'udzubillaah), and amazingly he doesn't death because broke 2 rule of Ten Commandment ?Jacob (CMIIW) who often make a lie (na'udzubillaah) ?Wallahu a'lam.
    So you agree that muhammed was sinner, an adulterer and a liar and you think it's ok because, so did David and Jacob? THE DIFFERENCE my friend is that when David or Jacob comitted a sin on the personal level, which they were ashamed and they seeked forgiveness, they repented from the bottom of their heat whereas muhammed legalized such acts and claimed them to be from God. For example, raping the captive women in God's name, comitting adultery by marrying more than once and all in God's name again and again, even sleeping with one of his wife's maid who bore him a son (the son was out of sin so he died just like all his other sons, between David's son out of that particular act also died), playing with the word of God which came before quran i.e. Torah, Injil & Zabur. Muslim says our scriptures are corrupted, I say thanks to muhammed.
     
  13. Amy

    Amy New Member

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    Source : FAITH FREEDOM One-day Muhammad goes to his wife’s house Hafsa the daughter of Omar and finds her maid Mariyah attractive. He sends Hafsa to Omar’s house, telling her that he wanted to see her. When Hafsa leaves, Muhammad takes Mariyah to bed and has intercourse with her. Meanwhile Hafsa, who finds out that her father was not expecting her, returns home much sooner than expected, and to her chagrin finds her illustrious husband in bed with her maid.She becomes hysteric and forgetting the station of the prophet she shouts and causes a scandal. The prophet pleads with her to calm down and promises not to sleep with Mariah anymore and begs her also not to divulge this secret to anyone else.However, Hafsa would not control herself and relays everything to Ayisha who also turns against the prophet and jointly with his other wives cause him much anguish. So the prophet decides to punish all of them and not sleep with any one of his wives for one month. Depriving one’s wives sexually is the second grade of punishment recomendedn in Quran. The first level is admonishing, the second level is depriving them of sex and the third level of punishment is beating them. Q. 4: 34. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.034Of course when a man decides to punish a wife with sexual deprivation he can satisfy himself with his other wives. But Muhammad’s anger had made him make the oath not to sleep with any of them for one month. That of course would have been too much of hardship for the beloved messenger of God (peace be upon his immaculate soul), therefore God in his mercy came to the aid of his prophet and revealed the Surah Tahrim (Banning). In this Surah Allah rebukes Muhammad for being hard on himself and for depriving himself from what he really likes and has been made lawful for him, in order to please his wives. This is the text of the Surah Tahrim: 66:1-5. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/066.qmt.html#066.0011. O Prophet! Why do you ban (for yourself) that which Allâh has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? And Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.2. Allâh has already ordained for you (O men), the dissolution of your oaths. And Allâh is your Maula (Lord, or Master, or Protector, etc.) and He is the All-Knower, the All-Wise.3. And (remember) when the Prophet (SAW) disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his wives (Hafsah), so when she told it (to another i.e. 'Aishah), and Allâh made it known to him, he informed part thereof and left a part. Then when he told her (Hafsah) thereof, she said: "Who told you this?" He said: "The All-Knower, the All-Aware (Allâh) has told me".4. If you two (wives of the Prophet SAW, namely 'Aishah and Hafsah turn in repentance to Allâh, (it will be better for you), your hearts are indeed so inclined (to oppose what the Prophet SAW likes), but if you help one another against him (Muhammad SAW), then verily, Allâh is his Maula (Lord, or Master, or Protector, etc.), and Jibrael (Gabriel), and the righteous among the believers, and furthermore, the angels are his helpers.5. It may be if he divorced you (all) that his Lord will give him instead of you, wives better than you, Muslims (who submit to Allâh), believers, obedient to Allâh, turning to Allâh in repentance, worshipping Allâh sincerely, fasting or emigrants (for Allâh's sake), previously married and virgins. “Although Muhammad gave his word to Hafsa, not to have sex with her maid he could not resist the temptation. Especially now that he had taken another oath not to sleep with all of his wives. It was a difficult situation and no one but Allah could help him. Well, nothing is impossible when you are the prophet of Allah. Leave everything in the hands of the Almighty and let him take care of it. And that is exactly what happened. Allah himself intervened and gave him the green light to follow his heart's desire. In the Surah Tahrim God licensed his beloved prophet to have his flings and not pay attention to his wives. What can a prophet ask more? Allah was so concerned about Muhammad's carnal pleasures that he even allowed ALL MEN to break their oaths as a bounty. Alhamdulillah! AllahuAkbar! Subhanallah. Isn't Allah great?It is also worthy of mention that Muhammad who came to know that Hafsa did reveal the secret to Aisha, lied to her by pretending that it was Allah who told him so (Ayat 3) while he actually learned it from Ayisha. But of course Muhammad is not the author of the Quran. It is Allah himself who is lying for his prophet.In reaction to the above verses, Aisha, who was not only young and pretty but also clever, is reported to have said to Muhammad, "Your God indeed rushes in coming to your aid!"The above story must have been also embarrassing for Muhammad’s followers even when they gobbled mindlessly everything he told them that they made other hadiths to explain away those verses of the Quran that were already explained by Omar. Muslim 9: 3496http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...t.html#009.3496'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) narrated that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) used to spend time with Zainab daughter of Jahsh and drank honey at her house. She ('A'isha further) said: I and Hafsa agreed that one whom Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) would visit first should say: I notice that you have an odour of the Maghafir (gum of mimosa). He (the Holy Prophet) visited one of them and she said to him like this, whereupon he said: I have taken honey in the house of Zainab bint Jabsh and I will never do it again. It was at this (that the following verse was revealed): 'Why do you hold to be forbidden what Allah has made lawful for you... (up to). If you both ('A'isha and Hafsa) turn to Allah" up to:" And when the Holy Prophet confided an information to one of his wives" (lxvi. 3). This refers to his saying: But I have taken honey.The existence of the above Hadith and its difference with the one narrated by Omar reveals yet another fact that the companions of Muhammad were willing to lie, (as Muslims are today) to save the image of their prophet from blemish. It would be foolish to accept the excuse of drinking honey to justify those Ayat. First of all honey does not smell bad. But above all it is inconceivable that a trivial incident like drinking honey could cause such an upheaval in the household of Muhammad to the extend that he decides to divorce all of his wives or to punish them for one month by not sleeping with them. Could such an insignificant incident like drinking honey provoke so much uproar that the creator of this universe be forced to intervene with a warning to Muhammad’s wives that he would divorce all of them and He (Allah) would give him virgin and faithful wives? This explanation is absurd unless honey is a code name for what Muhammad drank from between the legs of Mariyah.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Edited March 28, 2006 Several Muslims have claimed that the Hadiths quoted above narrated by Abdullah bin 'Abbas are false and the correct version is the one about honey. This is a nonsense. This hadith is recorded by both Bukahri and by Muslim. Furthermore it is the only logical explanation of the sha'ne nozool (context) of the Sura Tharim. According to Muslim scholar Asif Iftikhar "a Hadith can be regarded as a source of religious guidance only `if the basis of that Hadith exists in the Quran or the Sunnah or the established principles." We can clearly see that the Quran allows having sex with the "right hand possessions" i.e. slaves (Q. 4:24) and it was Muhammad's habit to have sex with his slave women. The text of the Sura makes it also clear that it is about having sex and not eating honey which is a silly explanation. Asif Iftikhar writes: "Imam Ibni Ali Jauzee is reported to have said: "If you find a Hadith against the dictates of common sense or contrary to a universal rule, consider it a fabrication."The story of honey is ludicrous and makes no sense. Why so much ado about honey? And who said honey smells bad? This hadith has been forged because obviously even in those early days, Muslims felt embarrassed about the actions of their prophet. However the hadiths about Muhammad sending Hafsa out so he could have sex with Mariyah makes perfect sense. It is in accordance with the Quran and in conformity with Muhammad's depravity of conduct. It was not unusual for Muhammad to solicit sex from women whom he found attractive. This story is also reported by Ibn Sa'd in Tabaqat: Waqidi has informed us that Abu Bakr has narrated that the messenger of Allah (PBUH) had sexual intercourse with Mariyyah in the house of Hafsah. When the messenger came out of the house, Hafsa was sitting at the gate (behind the locked door). She told the prophet, O Messenger of Allah, do you do this in my house and during my turn? The messenger said, control yourself and let me go because I make her haram to me. Hafsa said, I do not accept, unless you swear for me. That Hazrat (his holiness) said, by Allah I will not contact her again. Qasim ibn Muhammad has said that this promise of the Prophet that had forbidden Mariyyah to himself is invalid – it does not become a violation (hormat). [Tabaqat v. 8 p. 223 Publisher Entesharat-e Farhang va Andisheh Tehran 1382 solar h ( 2003) Translator Dr. Mohammad Mahdavi Damghani] Qasim ibn Muhammad of course tries to find justification for Muhammad's breach of his own premise. His words had no validity why he gave them and if they were valid why he broke them? My copy of the Qunan contains the following tafseer side by side with the Sura Tahrim. Also it is reported that the Prophet had divided his days among his wives. And when it was the turn of Hafsa, he sent her for an errand to the house of her father Omar Khattab. When she took this order and went, the prophet called his slave girl Mariyah the Copt who bore his son Ibrahim, and who was a gift from the king Najashi and had sexual intercourse with her. When Hafsa returned, she found the door locked. So she sat there behind that locked door until the prophet finished the business and came out of the house while pleasure[?] was dripping from his face. When Hafsa found him in that condition she rebuked him saying you did not respect my honor; you sent me out of my house with an excuse so you could sleep with the slave girl. And in the day that was my turn you had intercourse with someone else. Then the Prophet said, be quiet for although she is my slave and halal to me, for your contentment I at this moment make her haram to myself. But Hafsa did not do this and when the Prophet went out of her house she knocked at the wall that separated her room from that of Aisha and told her everything. She also gave the glad tiding about what the Prophet had promised about making Mariyah haram to himself. [Published by Entesharat-e Elmiyyeh Eslami Tehran 1377 lunar H. Tafseer and translation into Farsi by Mohammad Kazem Mo’refi] Mariyah was a white Coptic young woman and very beautiful. She bore Ibrahim to Muhammad. I had my doubt about Ibrahim being Muhammad's son. As per my research, Muhammad, during the last years of his life was suffering from acromegaly. One side-effect of this degenerative disease is impotence. He had erectile dysfunction. Note that Muhammad had seven children with Khadijah who was already frothy years old when she married him, but no children with more than twenty young women with whom he had sex in the last ten years of his life. There are hadiths that show he actually did not have intercourse with his wives but “fondled” them, and often he would go from one wife to another in one night touching their genitals but not practicing the intercourse. Another hadith says he used to imagine having sex http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...tml#007.071.660 when in reality he did not. Aisha says “none of you have the self control of the Prophet for he could fondle his wives but not have intercourse” The young and inexperienced woman did not realize that her illustrious husband, was not controlling himself, but simply could not do it. Cialis and Viagra were not yet invented.There was a hole in my theory. If Muhammad was impotent how could he sire Ibrahim? I suspected that the child could have belonged to someone else, but had no evidence to prove it. I finally got the evidence. The same Tabaqat when talking about Mariyah says that there was a Coptic man in Medina who used to visit Mariyah and rumor circulated that he was her lover. Mariyah was relocated to a garden to the North of Medina apparently because Mo's other wives did not like her. The rumor reached Muhammad who sent Ali to kill the man. The story says that the man exposed himself and Ali saw that he was an eunuch and spared his life. Apparently this was a convenient alibi to silence the crowd. Also Aisha was accused of having an affair with Safwan a young man from Medina also. Later she claimed that Safwan was eunuch. How could he become an eunuch in Medina and no one know? Only Aisha can explain that. The story is clearly forged. How could this Coptic man know why Ali wants to kill him? Ibn Sa'd the author of Tabaqat says that he saw Ali with his sword in his hand and climbed a date tree with fear and from there he exposed his genital (awrat). There is no conversation exchanged. The man simply knew why Ali wants to kill him. This does not sound a true story. Why would a messenger of God want to kill an innocent man and how did this man know why Ali wants to kill him? Looks like this Coptic man had a better understanding of the unknown than the prophet of Allah. Bukhari 2.018.153 http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...tml#002.018.153 Says that “The sun eclipsed in the life-time of Allah's Apostle on the day when (his son) Ibrahim died. So the people said that the sun had eclipsed because of the death of Ibrahim. Allah's Apostle said, "The sun and the moon do not eclipse because of the death or life (i.e. birth) of some-one. When you see the eclipse pray and invoke Allah." Bukhari 2.018.154 http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...tml#002.018.154 adds that when the sun eclipsed Muhammad “he led the people in prayer,… by then the sun (eclipse) had cleared. He delivered the Khutba (sermon) and after praising and glorifying Allah he said, "The sun and the moon are two signs against the signs of Allah; they do not eclipse on the death or life of anyone. So when you see the eclipse, remember Allah and say Takbir, pray and give Sadaqa." The Prophet then said, "O followers of Muhammad! By Allah! There is none who has more ghaira (self-respect - honor) than Allah as He has forbidden that His slaves, male or female commit adultery (illegal sexual intercourse). O followers of Muhammad! By Allah! If you knew that which I know you would laugh little and weep much.Ghaira is the very thing for which Muslims commit honor killing. If you look at a Muslim's wife or daughter, it is his ghaira that is being offended. If he does not react, it shows that he has little ghaira. The greater is his ghaira the more violent will be his reaction. The discussion about adultery at this time is quite revealing. Why would he choose to talk about adultery, of all things, in this moment? It’s not hard to imagine that Muhammad was thinking about it and was not very sure whether Ibrahim was his son or not. In this sermon Muhammad talked about Allah having a lot of ghaira and then speaks of prohibition of adultery. He concludes his sermon by saying he knows of very sad things that others don't know. Another point to bear in mind is that despite the fact the Mariyah was the only women who bore Muhammad a child, he did not marry her. Doesn't this tell us that he was not very sure about her loyalty? Bukhari 2.018.161 http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...tml#002.018.161 in another version of this hadith says. "Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abbas: "The Prophet then said, "The sun and the moon are two of the signs of Allah. They eclipse neither because of the death of somebody nor because of his life (i.e. birth). So when you see them, remember Allah." The people say, "O Allah's Apostle! We saw you taking something from your place and then we saw you retreating." The Prophet replied, "I saw Paradise and stretched my hands towards a bunch (of its fruits) and had I taken it, you would have eaten from it as long as the world remains. I also saw the Hell-fire and I had never seen such a horrible sight. I saw that most of the inhabitants were women." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! Why is it so?" The Prophet replied, "Because of their ungratefulness." It was asked whether they are ungrateful to Allah. The Prophet said, "They are ungrateful to their companions of life (husbands) and ungrateful to good deeds. If you are benevolent to one of them throughout the life and if she sees anything (undesirable) in you, she will say, 'I have never had any good from you.' " As these hadiths reveal, in this occasion Muhammad did not speak much about his only son' death. The death of his only son, must have been devastating for him, especially when we know he did not have much respect for girls and thought it is degrading for Allah to have only daughters when ordinary men have sons. But on the day of death of his only son, he chooses to speak about adultery and how women will be sent to hell because they are ungrateful to their husbands. The story is not important especially since Ibrahim died at infancy and left no descendants. And of course I can't prove it either. But if true, it validates my finding that Muhammad, in his advanced age suffered from acromegaly, of which he died and was impotent. His insatiable lust for sex was due to his frustrated sexual impulse.
     
  14. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Amy)
    So you agree that muhammed was sinner, an adulterer and a liar and you think it's ok because, so did David and Jacob?THE DIFFERENCE my friend is that when David or Jacob comitted a sin on the personal level, which they were ashamed and they seeked forgiveness, they repented from the bottom of their heat whereas muhammed legalized such acts and claimed them to be from God. For example, raping the captive women in God's name, comitting adultery for marrying more than once and all in God's name again and again, and playing with the word of God which came before quran i.e. Torah, Injil & Zabur. Muslim says our scriptures are corrupted, I say thanks to muhammed.
    I very much agree with you dearest Amy. [​IMG] Since when did YHWH get involved in sin? Like never and never. They need to WAKE UP...sure muslim say that our scripture is corrupted, but thanks goes to Lucifer himself since he started the whole mess and his spirit (spirits of the antichrist) still roams on Earth. Ye that loves YHWH hates evil. (Psalm 97:10)(Amy)
    The Qur'an is one man's ticket from mediocrity:Once begun, the Qur'an took on a "life" of its own, because Muhammad saw how it magnified himself to a powerful position in front of his band of murderous robber followers. The Qur'an is also one uneducated man's (Muhammad) feeble attempt to piece together Christian and Jewish theology. Throwing about pieces of his limited knowledge of what he learned about the Christian and Jewish religions provided Muhammad a way to elevate himself further in front of his listeners. Ample evidence suggests that before Muhammad began raping, murdering and pillaging for profit, he was viewed as a lunatic, especially by Jews, Christians, Medina and Mecca Arabs, and Hindus. The Jews professed disgust at a prophet whose chief concern was his harem of many wives.During his early 13 years of preaching his message in Mecca, Muhammad was not driven toward violence. He was also in fact tolerant and cooperative; even in the face of boycotts by the Meccans against him and his new converts. After Muhammad moved to Medina, however, Muhammad turned into a violent, cruel, lustful and intolerant man, who personally led raids on innocent caravans. Beginning in Medina, Muhammad spread Islam militarily. Muhammad accompanied his terrorist army on 27 raids . Muhammad, the warrior non-prophet who made no prophecies, fought himself in 9 of these raids: Badr, al-Mustaliq, Hunayn, Uhud, al-Khandaq, Qurayza, Khaybar, al-Ta'if, and the occupation.Muhammad's early attempts to unite with Christians and Jews were not successfulBecause Muhammad thought the "People of the Book" (Jews & Christians) also claimed allegiance to this same God he invented, Muhammad's early recitations about Christianity and Judaism in the Qur'an were irenic (Tending to promote peace; conciliatory):"O believers, be you God's helpers, as Jesus, Mary's son, said to the Apostles. 'Who will be my helpers unto God?' The Apostles said, 'We will be helpers of God' " (Sura 61:14).When Muhammad started preaching his new religion in Mecca he was conciliatory and appeasing to Christians. He told them: "We believe in What has been sent down to us and sent down to you, our God is the same as your God." Sura 29:46. And in Sura 2:62 it says; "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. "Christians and Jews in Muhammad's time treated Muhammad as a False Prophet:Later, as Christians and Jews treated this self proclaimed prophet with sustain, recitations regarding the "People of the Book" (both Jews and Christians) became more belligerent:Compare this with what happened later, in Medina, after Muhammad gained strength and Christians refused to follow Muhammad's Allah. Allah then tells him to "Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day...Nor acknowledge the religion of truth (Islam), (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay Jizya (tribute tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued". Sura 9:29"And the Jews say: Uzair (possibly Ezra) is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; " (Sura 9:30); and(The difficulty with Sura 9:30 above is with Uzair/Ezra, is the fact that no historical evidence can be adduced to prove that any Jewish sect, however heterodox, ever subscribed to such a tenet. What grounds were there for the accusation? It is probably a figment of Mohammed's own imagination.)"O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." (Sura 5:51).Are the following words what one might expect to hear from an all-knowing, benevolent deity? Or, are they the words one might expect from an Arab terrorist who needs to discipline his marauding troops today - and even in the 7th century (Muhammad)?- Sura 5.38 "And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise."
    And because Muhammad is a FALSE PROPHET. The second yellow statement is just prove it even more wrong. Allah DOES lead and guide the UNJUST people. This is getting out of hand every second.Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
     
  15. Amy

    Amy New Member

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    Ali Sina's replies to Mr. Parvez's MISCONCEPTIONS ​
    Mr. Parvez’s essay can be summarised in the following sections: (Note: I used this method instead of quoting from his essay in order to conserve space.)Muhammad was monogamous as long as his first wife, Khadija was alive. Muhammad married 12 wives. Muhammad married Sauda (or Sawda) when she was a 65 yeas old widow. Most of Muhammad’s wives were over the age 40 when they married him. Muhammad married Aisha when she was between 16 to 19 years old and not between 6 to 7 years as written in Sahi ahadith. Muhammad married Zainab (or Zaynab), his adopted son’s wife to set an example; it was not a marriage out of love/lust.
    *******​
    Let me present clear answers to the above issues. Muhammad was monogamous while Khadija was alive. It is true that Muhammad had no choice but to be satisfied with only one wife as long as Khadija was alive. Why was it so? Why did he not get permission from Allah to acquire many other wives during her lifetime? Why did his harem become so crowded immediately after Khadija’s death?In order to answer those questions, we must understand the power of money and wealth. In this mortal world, whoever has those two commodities make the rules. We find no exception in the case of Muhammad-Khadija relationship. Khadija was a very wealthy merchant lady when she married Muhammad. He was her third husband. The Sirat (Reference 3) gives the names of his two other husbands without giving much detail about them. When Khadija married Muhammad, he was a virtual indigent.Therefore, he was completely under the control/mercy of Khadija. In reality, Muhammad was a househusband while Khadija was his sole provider. He was totally dependent on Khadija for his survival. Therefore, if Muhammad ever dared to go for other women, Khadija would have eaten him alive, that was for sure. Besides, Khadija was 15 years senior to him; almost like his mother. So, how could Muhammad raise his voice against her? Here is a quote from the biography of Muhammad written by Maxime Rodinson (Ref.5).All around him Muhammad saw the wealthy Qurayshites using and abusing the pleasures of love. Each man, merchants and travelers especially, was allowed by custom to take wives for a limited period. Polygamy was perhaps less widespread than has been suggested, but divorce was simple and frequent. Outright prostitution, not readily distinguishable from temporary marriage, also occurred. Religious rites seem to have involved occasional ritual copulation. Young and beautiful slave-girls were easily bought. But Muhammad was wedded to Khadija and to her alone. It is possible that their marriage contract involved an obligation on his part to take no second wife. The wealthy Khadija was in a position to make demands (Ref 5, Page 54-55)It is now abundantly clear that Muhammad had no choice but to remain a monogamous when he was under the control of a rich and powerful lady like Khadija.Muhammad married 12 wives This is not a true picture of Muhammad’s collection of wives. Muhammad married between 13 to 22 wives. The most authentic biography of Muhammad (Ref. 3) tells us that Muhammad had at least 13 (when I counted, I found this to be 14) wives (see Ref.3 page 794). Some writers even suggest that Muhammad had up to 28 wives. This is not to say that the only women Muhammad had in his harem.He had at least two concubines namely Maria and Rayhana. Maria was presented to Muhammad by the Coptic head of Egypt while Rayhana was a booty from the genocide of Banu Qurayza, a Jewish tribe that lived in Medina. Both these sex slaves were of extreme beauty and very young when Muhammad possessed them.Many Islamists often object vehemently when we mention that Muhammad had concubines besides his regular wives. They will often give convoluted logic to demonstrate that the Prophet of Islam never had concubines. Well, here is what Ibn Ishak writes about Maria:Ibn Hisham’s note 129Ibrahim’s mother was Mariya the Copt. Abdullah b. Wahb from I Lahia told me that Mariya was the prophet’s concubine. The Muuqauqis presented her to him from Hafn in the province of Ansina. (Ibid, page 711).Muhammad married Sauda when she was 65 years old. This is a big joke. Here is the truth about Sauda:Saudah Bint. Zama: She was neither young nor beautiful. She was the right lady to take care of Mohammad's young children after the death of Khadijah. They got married in 620 A.D. She was middle aged, plump, jolly and of kindly disposition. She was a widow who lived until the end of time of Umor. Mohammad married Sauda when he was 53 and she was 50 almost the same time when he married Aisha. It is stated that Sauda "gave" her "nights" to Ayesha to have him for sex (http://www.islamic-paths.org/Home/English/.../Chapter-02.htm). That meant that old Sauda was a maidservant while young Aisha was for having good time (speaking in today’s parlance).Most of Muhammad’s wives were over the age 40 whey they married him. This is not completely true. We can find at least three women who were quite young when Muhammad married them. Here are a few samples:Maimunah (or Barra) Bint. Al Harith: Mohammad married her when he was 60 and she was 36 in 629 A.D. (7 A.H). Zainab Bint Khuzaima was her half sister. She was the last woman the prophet married due to the restriction imposed on him by Allah (33:50, 33:52). She lived with Mohammad for just 3 years. After Mohammad died, Maimunah lived for another 40 years. She died at an age of 80 (51 A.H.). She was Mohammad's last wife to die.Rayhana: She was not a real wife. Some authorities say that she eventually converted to Islam and married Muhammad. She was a booty from a battle. She was a Jewish girl of extreme beauty; so, Mohammad proposed to marry her. However, she refused to covert to Islam and marries Mohammad. Therefore, she became a sex slave of Mohammad. She was probably a teenager when Muhammad captured her.Safiyah Bint Huyay: She was also a war booty. She was taken a captive after the slaughter in Khybar. In that battle, she lost her father, recently married husband and all other close relatives. This captured Jewish woman was given to a Muslim soldier called Dahia. However, when Mohammad saw her pulchritude, he immediately bought her from Dahia and proposed to marry her. She was in a state of shock when brought to Mohammad. Safiyah's cousin sister was also brought along with Safiyah but Mohammad was not interested in her cousin as she was not that pretty.Safiyah had no choice but to marry Mohammad to save her life. She was 17 years old when she married the 60 years old Mohammad. She was with Mohammad for 4 years. She was 21 when the prophet of Islam died. She lived as a widow for the next 39 years. She died in 50 A.H (673 A.D.) at the age of 60.If you want to read more about Muhammad’s wives please read ‘Holy and Blessed Family’, NFB August 20, 2001 or e-mail me.That Safiya was a very young girl when Muhammad possessed her can also be traced from the following quote of Sira by Ibn Ishak:TESTIMONY OF SAFIYA ‘Abdullah b. Abu Bakr b. Muhammad b. ‘Amr b. Hazm told me that he was told that Safiya d. Huyayy b. Akhtab said ‘I was the favourite child of my father and my uncle Abu Yasir. When I was present they took no notice of their other children. When the apostle was staying in Quba with the B. ‘Amr b. Auf, the two went to see him before daybreak and did not return until after nightfall, weary worn out, drooping and feeble. I went up to them on childish pleasure as I always did, and they were so sunk in gloom that they took no notice of me. I heard my uncle say to my father, "Is he he? Do you recognize him, and can you be sure?" "Yes!" "And what do you feel about him?" "by God I shall be his enemy as long as I live." (Ref: 3, page 241-242)Muhammad married Aisha when she was between 16 to 19 years old. This is the biggest joke or fib I have ever read. The author (Parvez Ahmed) wrote that the marriage age of Aisha to be 6 to 7 years is based on apocryphal traditions. How funny! Does Mr. Parvez contend that Sahi Bukhari, and Sahi Muslim are apocryphal? How strange and outrageous! All the Sahi ahadith including Shahih Bukhari and Shahih Muslim are the foundations of Islam. Their position is just after the Holy Qur’an. All Islamic rules/regulations/Sha’ria laws are based on these Sahi traditions. How can Mr. Parvez deny this? I am at a loss here! Has he invented a new tradition by reading the biography of Muhammad by Hussain Haykal of Egypt?Let us review a few Sahi traditions:This one is from the most Sahi of all traditions, that is, Shahih Bukhari:Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236: Narrated Hisham's father:Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.Here is another hadis from Shahih Bukhari from the very mouth of Aisha. Does Mr. Parvez say that the Ummul Mumenin, Aisha was lying through her teeth?Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Narrated 'Aisha:that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).Here is another Sahi hadis from Shahih Muslim in the very words of Aisha. Is Aisha a lier and fibber? Tauba! Tauba! Book 008, Number 3311: 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.Want to hear more? Here is Sira by Ibn Ishak:He married ‘Aisha in Mecca when she was a child of seven lived with her in Medina when she was nine or ten. She was the only virgin that he married. Her father, Abu Bakr, married her to him and the apostle gave her four hundred dirhams.(Ref. 3, page 792)I am just wondering why the Mullahs are not issuing Fatwas demanding the blood of Mr. Parvez Ahmed for transgressing the Holy Scriptures and distorting the truth. Is it because he is the communications director CAIR for the Florida chapter? What a shame and double standard played by the Islamic apologists!If any so-called ‘Islam basher’ ever dares to write a single line contradicting the Qur’an and the ahadith, then the Mullahs will not spare even an hour to issue Fatwa demanding the head of the Murtad or of the ‘blasphemy’ writer. Is this how Islam wants to convert the world to its fascistic doctrine?Now back to child marriage again. While we are on this topic let us briefly review the provision/s of child/underage marriage in Islam. You may be greatly surprised to learn that you thought this could have never existed in Islam!The first important point is that there is no minimum age for marriage in Islam. This truth can be found in many Sha’ria books. Here is what the Dictionary of Islam writes:There is no particular age for marriage (Ref. 4, page 315)So, what should be the age of a woman/girl/child when an adult Muslim male can marry her? Is it possible to marry a newly born suckling infant? What? Naujubillah! This is very contemptible! Islam can never allow such perversion, you say. Perish this thought. Read for yourself the following Sha’ria rule on marrying an infant girl who is still suckling her mother’s milk. This Sha’ria rule clearly demonstrates that an adult Muslim man can marry an infant girl and an adult woman at the same time but the infant cannot suckle the adult’s milk. How disgusting!Hedaya Vol. I Book III, page 71 (Ref. 6)Case of one of two wives suckling the other-If a man marry an infant and an adult and the latter should give milk to the former, both wives become prohibited with respect to that man [their husband], because if they were to continue united in marriage to him, it would imply the propriety of joint cohabitation with the foster-mother and her foster-daughter, which is prohibited, in the same manner as joint cohabitation with a natural mother and daughter-It is to be observed on this occasion, that if the husband should not have had carnal connexion with the adult wife, she is not entitled to any dower whatever, because the separation has proceeded from her, before consummation :-but the infant has a claim to her half dower.Many Muslims will be greatly enraged as to what I wrote in the previous paragraph. They will still deny the truth. Some may even want proof of this type of child abuse and pedophiliac trend in any follower of Islam.Well, I would like them to read the following:Umme Kulthum: Umme Kulthum was 4 or 5 years old when Umor married her. This child was his most favourite wife (just like prophet Mohammad). There is a great controversy about the identity of this child bride of Umor. Many Islamists claim that she was the daughter of Ali and Fatima. Others claim that Umme Kulthum was the posthumous daughter of Abu Bakar and Habiba. Abu Bakar died (13 A.H.) a few months before Umme Kulthum was born. She was the half sister of Ayesha. So, Umor asked Ayesha for the hand of Umme Kulthum when she (Umme Kulthum) was only 4 - 5 years old. Ayesha agreed and Umor and Umme Kulthum got married.It is not known at what age of Umme Kulthum, Umor consummated the marriage. I could not find any reference as to the age of Umor when he married this child. However, we can make some calculations to find out his age at the time of marriage.Umor was born 13 years after prophet Mohammad. Mohammad was born in 570. So, Umor must have been born in 583 A.D. (other records show that Umor was born around 580 A.D.)Let us assume that Umor married Umme Kulthum bt. Ali. Sunni references (Al Farooq vol. II by Shibli Numani p 539. History of Abul Fida, vol. I p 171) suggest that this marriage took place in 17 A.H (623 A.D.). Sunni references also suggest that Umme Kulthum was 4 to 5 years old when Umor married her. Let us say that she was 5 years old when the marriage took place. This will put the date of birth of Umme Kulthum as 12 A.H, which is 634 A.D.Therefore, Umor was 51 years (634 - 583 = 51) when Umme Kulthum was born.Thus, Umor was at least 56 years old (51+ 5 = 56) years old when he married this child.Now, let us assume that Umor married the posthumous daughter of Abu Bakar. Historical record suggests that Abu Bakar died in 13 A.H and Umme Kulthum Bint Abu Bakar was born a few months after his death. That is, we can safely say that Umme Kulthum was born in 13 A.H., which is 635 A.D.Sunnis suggests that this marriage took place in 17 A.H. = 639 A.D.Umor must have been at least 56 years (639 - 583 = 56) years old when he married this child of 4 to 5 years old.Whichever version of the marriage we accept, it is abundantly clear that Umor was very much past his 50's when he married Umme Kulthum. Incredible! Umor surpassed his master when it came to child marriage. However, Islamic history and Hadith are absolutely and positively silent on when Umor consummated this marriage.If we assume that Umor followed the example of the prophet (pbuh) and consummated the marriage when Umme Kulthum was 9 years, he must had been at least 59 years when he did that. Even if we assume that Umor had sex with Umme Kulthum just before he was assassinated (he was 61 years when he died), she could be only around 10 (5+5 =10) years old!Thus, Umor probably had sex with a 9 or 10 years old child when he was 59/60! Get it folks?Still not convinced? Well, here is what Muhammad, the Prophet of peace and mercy wanted to do with a baby girl who just started to crawl. It was just the good luck for this baby girl that the Last Prophet died before he could fulfil his dream.Muhammad wanted to marry a crawling baby. This is from the book of Sira by Ibn Ishak, the most authentic biographer of Muhammad. Most other biographies are based on this monumental work by Ibn Ishak/Ibn Hisham(Suhayli, ii.79: In the riwaya of Yunus I.I recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu’l-Fadl) when she was baby crawling before him and said, ‘If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.’ But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. Abdu’l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubaba….(Ref.3, page 311)Why should the Islamic apologist like Mr. Parvez Ahmed and his organization CAIR try to fool the gullible and little informed western non-Muslims? Do they think that their misinformation and blatant distortion of facts will go unchallenged? I would request Mr. Perevz to write a few words about what the authorities like Hedaya and Ibn Ishak had written.Let us now take up the last misinformation/disinformation propagated by Mr. Parvez/CAIR.Muhammad married Zainab (or Zaynab), his adopted son’s wife to set an example; it was not a marriage out of love/lust. This is an absolute nonsense. We can demonstrate from various authentic Islamic sources that Muhammad’s marriage to Zaynab was completely based on his desire to have a ‘good time’ with her (I’m borrowing this term to be in tune with modernity!) and nothing else. This truth can never be suppressed no matter how much any Islamic apologist tries to the contrary.First, we turn to Qur’an. This unholy union was a matter of great shame in the Arab society of that time. The Arab society of those days could never imagine that the father of an adopted son would marry his wife. It was because the Arabs treated their adopted children as their own.Thus, this type of marriage was completely unacceptable to them. Muhammad knew about this and feared that he would be ostracised/shunned by his community if he plunged into fulfilling his carnal desire for Zaynab without the intervention of Almighty Allah. So, Allah promptly sent down 33:37 that permitted Zayd to divorce Zaynab and gave the licence to Muhammad to sleep with her. Here is the complete verse:033.037YUSUFALI: Behold! Thou didst say to one who had received the grace of Allah and thy favour: "Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah." But thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest: thou didst fear the people, but it is more fitting that thou shouldst fear Allah. Then when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee: in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And Allah's command must be fulfilled.This verse is very clear in disclosing the secret carnal desire of Muhammad for Zaynab.Ali Dashti, sourcing from authentic sources like Jalalyn and Zamakshari (the two great writers of Tafsir Qur’an that ever lived) writes:The Prophet’s love for Zaynab arose later, and the time and circumstances of its incidence are diversely reported. The account in the Tafsir al-Jalalayn suggests that his attitude began to change soon after her marriage to Zayd. "After a time (probably meaning a short time) his eye fell on her, and love for Zaynab budded in his heart. (Ref. 7, page 132)Citing the work of Zamakhshari, Ali Dashti continues further:Zamakhshari, in his comment on verse 37 sura 33, states that it was after Zaynab’s marriage to Zayd that the Prophet’s eye fell on her. She pleased him so much that he could not help saying, "Praise be to God who makes hearts beat!" The Prophet had seen Zaynab before but she had not then pleased him; otherwise he would have asked for her hand. Zaynab heard the Prophet’s exclamation and told Zayd about it. Zayd knew intuitively that God had cast an unease with Zaynab into his heart. He therefore went in haste to the Prophet and asked whether he might divorce his wife. The Prophet asked what had happened and whether he suspected her. Zayd replied that he had met with nothing but kindness from her, but was distressed because she considered herself more noble than himself and more suitable for the Prophet. It was then that the words "Keep your wife for yourself and fear God" in verse 37 came down. (Ref. 7, page 132-133)To be fair with Muhammad, Ali Dashti makes the following comment regarding the honesty of Muhammad’s desire for Zaynab as expressed in 33:37This meaningful verse is an impressive example of the Prophet Mohammad’s honesty and candor. (Ref. 7, page 133)My rebuttals of what Mr. Parvez of CAIR had been trying to propagate are in no way designed to malign and/or demean Islam and Muhammad. I have tried to elucidate from the primary/authentic sources of Islam a truer picture of what Mr. Parvez tried to distort. I did not invent anything new, neither did I write anything original/earth shattering/revolutionary.If the Mullahs have the right to issue Fatwa for the head of secularists for writing ‘blasphemous’ essays, why not the secularists now issue directives (read Fatwa) when the Islamic apologists write totally distorted and misinformed articles to fool the un-informed Muslims and non-Muslims alike? Of course, our Fatwa will not ask for blood (read beheading) from the apologists. All we want is this, ‘please reply to this essay refuting its content.’References: 1. Shahih Bukhari; Translation by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan[url="http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukha/]http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukha/[/url]2. Shahih Muslim; Translation by Abdur Rahman Siddiquihttp://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/musli/3. SIRAT RASUL ALLAH by Ibn Ishaq Translated by A. Guillaume. Fifteenth Impression, 2001 Published by Oxford University Press, Karachi, Pakistan4. DICTIONARY OF ISLAM by Thomas Patrick Hughes , 1994 Published by KAZI Publications, Inc., Chicago, IL, USA5. MUHAMMAD by Maxime Rodinson: Translated from the French by Anne Carter, 2002 Published by the NewYork Press, New York6. THE HEDAYA COMMENTARY ON THE ISLAMIC LAWS (reprint 1994) Translated by Charles Hamilton, Published by Kitab Bhaban , 1784 Kalan Mahal, Darya Ganj, New Delhi110002 [India]7. 23 YEARS: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad by Ali Dashti (1994) Translated from the Persian by F.R.C. Bagley, Mazda Publishers, Costa Mesa, California.
     
  16. Amy

    Amy New Member

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    (thesuperjag;18109)
    I very much agree with you dearest Amy. [​IMG] Since when did YHWH get involved in sin? Like never and never. They need to WAKE UP...sure muslim say that our scripture is corrupted, but thanks goes to Lucifer himself since he started the whole mess and his spirit (spirits of the antichrist) still roams on Earth. Ye that loves YHWH hates evil. (Psalm 97:10)And because Muhammad is a FALSE PROPHET. The second yellow statement is just prove it even more wrong. Allah DOES lead and guide the UNJUST people. This is getting out of hand every second.Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
    Thanks for your comments my little brother :angel9:
     
  17. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiimA lot of that lying or misperception or un understanding argument that you are showing above which is you taken from faithfreedom or answering-muslim was been refuted in this link, so please, if you really want to know Islam really is what they are really are please visit and pay attention on the link that i've gave before. Hopely you got understand from our view, not from satan argument. As I said to you before, if you considered the truth from a liar then you are not less the same as a liar.It is the same like if i taking the truth that Jesus was only prophet from unitarian nor JW, if i was considered that was the truth according to christian, then you surely considered me as evil becuase what i considered truth was not from christian really is according to Protest and Cathol.But again, this is your own problem because you are seems more like with the hatred rather then to understand it from the source it self.Again please read everything regarding on 'research' that you are talking about, which is i said a blashpemy or a lying rather than research. www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htmlWallahu a'lam.
     
  18. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    I'm going to put down here, more scriptures. We are going nowhere, it's running in circles. It's too much and too wasty.Romans 9:14 - What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.Romans 3:4 - God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
     
  19. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Amy)
    So you agree that muhammed was sinner, an adulterer and a liar and you think it's ok because, so did David and Jacob?
    Not event once I agree with what you has said.Event I never think event once to every His Messenger did a huge sin. It is to bed that you underestimated God in chosen His own Messenger that committed such terrible sin. If an ordinary people not the Chosen one can not doing an adultery nor murdered, how come His Chosen Messenger can such of think ? What a God. Or there is some disbeliever who unhappy with God then changing what the truth is ? That is a possibilty that can be appear on what it write.I was asking that, because some of the christian often seeing others 'fault' without concerning what is infront of their own eyes.If you can do blashpemy to Muhammad, why not event once you ever blashpemy to God because wrong chosen, to David because of doing terrible sin and others ? It is so weird that Muhammad s.a.w become something that hunted you, meanwhile in your own scripture has a lot of thinks that terrible, and that you considered Ok.("Jordan")
    I very much agree with you dearest Amy. Since when did YHWH get involved in sin? Like never and never. They need to WAKE UP...sure muslim say that our scripture is corrupted, but thanks goes to Lucifer himself since he started the whole mess and his spirit (spirits of the antichrist) still roams on Earth. Ye that loves YHWH hates evil. (Psalm 97:10)
    ("amy")
    THE DIFFERENCE my friend is that when David or Jacob comitted a sin on the personal level, which they were ashamed and they seeked forgiveness
    That's funny, GOD ORDERED TO PUNISH EVERYONE WHO DONE A MURDERED AND ADULTERY, BUT THEN GOD RELAESED A MURDERED AND AN ADULTERED AT ONCE ? SO GOD TAKING BACK HIS OWN WORD ? That's very funny joke my friend.And getting more funny, because not David should get an executed or get punishment for his sin, BUT HIS INNOCENT CHILD GOT PUNISH FROM GOD. GOD PUNISH THE ONE WHO NOT GUILTY, THEN FORGIVE THE SIN ONE ? Very nice joke my friend.And JACOB DOES HE EVER ASKED GOD FORGIVENESS ?And another think is GOD BLESH HIM, EVENT HE KNOW THAT JACOB BEING LIE.Oh so you want to see Killing by the name of GOD ? I give you oneNumber 31:31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. Number 31 : 31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Ges, what the hell is that ?Hey amy have you ever heard that before ?By the way why don't you blasphemy Moses and His God ?
    they repented from the bottom of their heat whereas muhammed legalized such acts and claimed them to be from God.
    Do you know Jacob ACCORDING TO YOUR HOLY BIBLE, over and over making LYING ON HIS TWIN BROTHER and the funny is, GOD GIVING HIS BLESH TO A LIER. What a GOD.If Satan Was King of LIE, THEN WHO WILL BLESH A LIER ?SO JACOB GOD WAS A SATAN ?
    For example, raping the captive women in God's name, comitting adultery by marrying more than once and all in God's name again and again, even sleeping with one of his wife's maid who bore him a son (the son was out of sin so he died just like all his other sons,
    That's very funny truth [​IMG]. Give me the Islamic source which mentioning Muhammad s.a.w. committed raping on captive women ?By the way, take a look and read carefully on this link, if you dare ofcourse. If not, please don't visit it because can cause you sick.http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/book_with_no_limits.htmNumber 31:31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. Number 31 : 31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. In The Name Of God (Jesus) i plesured doeth killing ?Deuteronomy 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
    between David's son out of that particular act also died), playing with the word of God which came before quran i.e. Torah, Injil & Zabur. Muslim says our scriptures are corrupted, I say thanks to muhammed.
    Well indeed your Bible Corrupt, and that was not claim only moslem, event some of your scholars has admitted, and event your own bible foretold it. So Quran correct about your bible corruption.Note : To All Christian who felt not pleased for what I did, please forgive me, to be honest i'm not attend to do this kind of writing. If there is one christian or more who felt angry or not pleasant with what i did, please give a comment, and i shall stop writing about what making you guys hurt.Best regards,Ricky WWallahu a'lam.
     
  20. ami

    ami New Member

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    Ricky,Wow, that is a very useful information u gave us amy. Thanks. Ricky I think you have all the proof there. This is not blasphamy or anything. It is the truth. And the bible is the only authentic book we have and we need to follow. Your coran confirms that the bible is true. somewhere in the coran Allah showed revelation to Mohamed and tells him to refer to the christians bible if Mohammed has any doubt. And you can not deny that because if you do u will deny your own book. Cheers
     
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