My Five Big Issues with Seventh Day Adventism

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Pavel Mosko

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Alright I will make this as tactful as possible to not break any rules. I also will try to avoid hot button issues like Trinitarianism and Arianism although I will have to mention things in passing and those things are really important in terms of Church history.


1) Doctrinal Structural Problems with SDA


A) In a nutshell you got all these problems: 1) with Adventism, that even if that Church wants to reform to be ecumenically friendly etc. you got basic structural problems from them also holding onto to the pioneers who were less congenial when it came to the ancient Christian creeds and the language used in them. The Church eventually adopts the term "Trinity" but their Trinity is completely different in substantial ways reminiscent of problem groups of the past.

B) You got the same thing with Christology, not only that but you got a new angle where Jesus is dressed and acts like an Aaronic priest on top of that.

C)) You got a Soteriology that is Pelagian.

D) Adventists don't believe that humans don't have a spirit..

E) The ancient Church especially would take issue with their position on Sunday. Not that worshipping on Saturday is bad, but their polemical and polarized position against Sunday would put them on the bad side of things for being Schismatics and trouble makers trying to divide the body of Christ etc.

F) Lots of problematic stuff with Ellen White.

G) Lots of problematic stuff with the concept of "Present Truth". That is really bad if you study Biblical Epistemology and Doctrine, especially concerning how Seventh Day Adventist tried to implement there new revelation. The Faith has already been delivered to the Saints, and you cannot lay a new foundation down. And lots of other similar Bible passages around similar lines, especially around not causing confusion and the fact official positions of that Church received by revelation tended to change a lot which is much different than the story of the Judeo-Christian tradition, but strangely very similar to how Islam and I'm sure other revelatory faiths like LDS tended to handle things in their early days.


Anyway my point in my rambling is that according to Nicene Christianity you can't really reform a Church that is deemed heretical or unorthodox. You can't have something like "The Reformed Church of Arius", "the Reformed Church of Simon Magus". If people want fellowship or to be in communion then the group of people needs to reject all the teaching of that heretical founder to have any kind of relationship because if that isn't done the problem doctrines and fruit of the poisoned tree will follow. It also reminds me of the Biblical saying of a servant cannot serve two masters, or the passage "How can two walk together unless they be in agreement".


Thanks for reading!
 
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Pavel Mosko

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2) Adventism's revelation on keeping the Sabbath (beyond the older Seventh Day Baptist teaching) is simply an attempt to fix the failed Shut door Prophecy

The movement had boxed itself in a corner around 1844, by Ellen Harmon/White having a revelation that confirmed the Shutdoor doctrine. A foolish prophecy, given I believe out of spite or to curry favor with the originator of the Shutdoor doctrine (don't remember his name) but it definitely is not Biblical. Proclaiming your little flock of only 150 people to be the only ones to be saved in the World is extremely Biblically dubious for reasons that should be obvious.


So that eventually that had to be fixed, once the "Little flock" began to realize in just a few years that it had essentially painted itself into a corner! There were a few different new modified positions that came via revelations until we get some kind of Sabbatarian one around 1851, where Non-Adventist people who previously rejected Millerism and the early post Millerite/SDA movement and were barred from salvation can now be saved, but they have to do so by observing the Sabbath! Incidentally prophets of the Bible do not operate this way, but other prophets of other Faiths like the prophet of Islam do.


DEUTERONOMY 18:22
KJ21
when a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously; thou shalt not be afraid of him.


 
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Pavel Mosko

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3) Adventism's preaching and teaching against Sunday is done from ignorance (blaming the Pope or Constantine for something that was done much earlier and for Biblical reasons and roots).


 
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Pavel Mosko

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4) Believe not every spirit (still on Sunday)

John 4 King James Version

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:


I believe this Biblical passage applies to Adventism. It was made in reference to one of the earliest Gnostic heresies, namely of Doceticism that said that Jesus only appeared to have a body (he was a phantom or a spirit). This heresy likewise influenced Islam in their doctrine that Christ did not really die on the cross "but only appeared to" (Allah supposedly did an allusion to fool the onlookers and allowed Jesus to escape and some other criminal to be crucified.


Anyway, this passage contradicted one of the core teachings of Christianity, Christ having a body is important because he eventually gives his life for our sins. And much the same is true for Sunday worship. Christ arose on Sunday, the Holy Spirit was given on Sunday, saint John had his big revelation on Sunday. Not only this but the ancient Christians worshipped on Sunday, because the eucharist itself is a remembrance much like Passover where Christians "Remember God and his might deeds" Creation began on a Sunday, and so did our redemption which was prefigured typologically in a number of Jewish Festivals, offerings and rites that in Judaism take place on the 8th day.



Besides this there is "The Unity of Faith" Christianity has been united in their Faith as "One Body of Christ" by the truth and worship on Sunday. This is especially true to note because what the Bible says about Schismatics.


1 Corinthians 12:25-27 King James Version

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.



Romans 16:17
Verse Concepts
Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.


1 Corinthians 1:10
Verse Concepts
Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.


1 Corinthians 3:4
Verse Concepts
For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men?
 

Pavel Mosko

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5) The Three Angel's Message Does not Fit the Biblical definition of the Gospel
This is the entirety of the Gospel message.

1 Corinthians 6:14 - And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

Romans 6:4 - Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


This Youtuber did a good video on this topic.


 

BarneyFife

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Alright I will make this as tactful as possible to not break any rules. I also will try to avoid hot button issues like Trinitarianism and Arianism although I will have to mention things in passing and those things are really important in terms of Church history.


1) Doctrinal Structural Problems with SDA


A) In a nutshell you got all these problems: 1) with Adventism, that even if that Church wants to reform to be ecumenically friendly etc. you got basic structural problems from them also holding onto to the pioneers who were less congenial when it came to the ancient Christian creeds and the language used in them. The Church eventually adopts the term "Trinity" but their Trinity is completely different in substantial ways reminiscent of problem groups of the past.

B) You got the same thing with Christology, not only that but you got a new angle where Jesus is dressed and acts like an Aaronic priest on top of that.

C)) You got a Soteriology that is Pelagian.

D) Adventists don't believe that humans don't have a spirit..

E) The ancient Church especially would take issue with their position on Sunday. Not that worshipping on Saturday is bad, but their polemical and polarized position against Sunday would put them on the bad side of things for being Schismatics and trouble makers trying to divide the body of Christ etc.

F) Lots of problematic stuff with Ellen White.

G) Lots of problematic stuff with the concept of "Present Truth". That is really bad if you study Biblical Epistemology and Doctrine, especially concerning how Seventh Day Adventist tried to implement there new revelation. The Faith has already been delivered to the Saints, and you cannot lay a new foundation down. And lots of other similar Bible passages around similar lines, especially around not causing confusion and the fact official positions of that Church received by revelation tended to change a lot which is much different than the story of the Judeo-Christian tradition, but strangely very similar to how Islam and I'm sure other revelatory faiths like LDS tended to handle things in their early days.


Anyway my point in my rambling is that according to Nicene Christianity you can't really reform a Church that is deemed heretical or unorthodox. You can't have something like "The Reformed Church of Arius", "the Reformed Church of Simon Magus". If people want fellowship or to be in communion then the group of people needs to reject all the teaching of that heretical founder to have any kind of relationship because if that isn't done the problem doctrines and fruit of the poisoned tree will follow. It also reminds me of the Biblical saying of a servant cannot serve two masters, or the passage "How can two walk together unless they be in agreement".


Thanks for reading!
No takers? I would answer but, unfortunately, your 5 big issues quickly turned into 7 broad points before you even got to the 2nd big issue.

I can see why you have trouble over at CF.

I'd love to chat if you could just focus a little. :)
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I can see why you have trouble over at CF.
I only had trouble over at CF after I came to the conclusion based on studying Adventist positions from Ellen White, their 28 Doctrines statement etc. that Adventism wasn't Christian according to the basic Nicene Christian stance of the board, and that only happened after being on the board 5 years or so. And I would add my trouble only came when I pushed this message and did so knowingly out of conscience etc. the last few months.

But thanks for posting @BarneyFife


I do consider Adventism Christian in the general American cultural sense of that word (people who self-identify as such, but this includes people like Mormons and New Agers, extremely liberal Christians etc.). But as far as TOS type statements go, I think the distinction between Jehovah Witnesses and Adventists is very thin and arbitrary. The acceptance of SDA as being a Christian denomination on that board has more to do with their vigorous public relations campaign of SDA for the last 40 something years than formal theology. It is more about them reframing and repackaging their theology to make Protestant Trinitarians happy etc. and the same goes with Salvation issues etc.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Actually, it is extremely easy to post at CFI @BarneyFife you just have to avoid making waves. And if you fail at that, there are quite a bit of grace points. The problem however is I think sometimes God wants us to make waves, even Jesus said "He has not come to bring peace but a sword".
 

Pavel Mosko

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your 5 big issues quickly turned into 7 broad points before you even got to the 2nd big issue.

Yes, but that is the problem with your main theological authority / inspired interpreter of scripture.


Here is also something you SDA should be aware of when it comes to concepts like "the Spirit of Prophecy", "Present Truth" etc. lots of Christians have experience dealing with that via coming from the Charismatic Protestant movement. (The notion that Spiritual gifts have not necessarily ceased but also the realization that prophecies and other gifts are not necessarily the real thing and we should be circumspect with the "truth" that comes from various revelations).


 
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Pavel Mosko

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@BarneyFife we can chat on "Present Truth" and how I disagree with it based on the my experience of the guy in the above video, and even more when I understood how Seventh Day Adventists use that term! My disagreement first comes from something I call "Biblical Epistemology" (Bible verses about the nature of Truth, the nature of the Gospel etc. and secondly history of the Bible and Judaism and later Christianity related to issues of doctrine, theological development etc. I can even start a new thread for it if you are interested. Probably would be best....
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I think the nature/history of the Shutdoor doctrine/prophecy, my second point would be a good second thread, since that is what I believe is the real issue with all the Sabbath thumping. :) But will put that off until the first one winds down, and assuming your interested in talking about it.