My God My God why has Thou forsaken Me ?

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ChristisGod

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Psalm 22
1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
2 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
3 Yet You are holy,
O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You delivered them.
5 To You they cried out and were delivered;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
A reproach of men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8 “Commit yourself to the Lord; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”

9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10 Upon You I was cast from birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.

11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And You lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.

19 But You, O Lord, be not far off;
O You my help, hasten to my assistance.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth;
From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.

22 I will tell of Your name to my brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.

25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly;
I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26 The afflicted will eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the Lord.
Let your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord’s
And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30 Posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
31 They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.



12 facts about God and Jesus last words. Some people teach when Jesus said My God My God why have Thou forsaken Me that the Father departed, deserted and turned His back upon His Son to bear Gods wrath on the cross. But is this teaching biblical? Is it true?

1-God is Triune
2- The Trinity cannot be broken, separated or abandoned.
3- God doesn't send His wrath against God
4- Jesus is God
5- Context has meaning and all the gospel accounts work together along with the OT quotations
6- Jesus words come from Psalm 22
7- Psalm 22 must be understood in the context of the crucifixion
8- Jesus last words were this " Father into Thy hands I commit my Spirit "
9- Psalm 22 has numerous fulfillment's during His Crucifixion
10- Psalms 22 and the gospels say He was mocked, despised, hurled insults, cast lots, divided His clothes, let God rescue Him etc......
11- Psalm 22:24 also says God has not despised Him nor hidden His face from Him and listened to His cry for help
12- Psalm 22:24 coincides with Jesus trust and relationship with the Father saying into your hands I commit MY Spirit.

God is LOVE. In Love the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John tells us.

We must understand how Gods attributes all work in harmony together not in opposition to each other. All of Gods attributes and His character flow from His Love for God is Love.

God being Love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is Love and that Love is perfect lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love by definition has to be expressed with another which is why a unitarian god cannot be Love. Love requires another to share and express that Love and it’s what we see with the Triune God. God is Love before anyone/anything existed.

Before creation there was no sin hence no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, justice etc................. Why because those are Gods secondary attributes. God’s Love is a primary attribute like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes.

All doctrine begins with God at its starting point.

You see the entire Psalm 22 which is Messianic was being played out before their very eyes and Jesus quotes the opening verse letting His persecutors know that He truly is the Son of God, the Messiah by quoting Psalm 22 being lived out before them. It’s a proclamation and a declaration that He is the Messiah, Gods One and Only Son who gave His life as a ransom for many. What the Father did allow to happen and not rescue His Son from was His death and suffering from those wicked leaders to be our sacrifice for sin. The entire weight of that was upon Him to bear alone but the Father never left Him. He was there hearing His prayers and answering them upon His death. And let’s not forget Jesus promise to the sinner- TODAY you will be with ME in PARADISE. For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. You see The Trinity was never fractured, broken or severed for even a moment but together the Godhead accomplished salvation for sinners. It was a Triune effort that worked out to perfection as They had planned from the very beginning.

God did not turn His back on adam when he sinned but sought him out, He didn’t turn His back on David when he sinned. God does not turn His back on us when we sin as He is there with open arms to forgive. Jesus didn’t turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and in fact sought him out on the Damascus road and said to him” why are you persecuting Me ? You see if God did not turn His back on sinners then neither did the Father turn His back on His only Son who is Holy, Blameless, Sinless, and Righteous just like His Father. It’s nothing but a modern day myth that teaches that the Father turned His back on the Son at the cross.

God is not against Himself angrily displaying wrath from the Father to the Son. God is love. In love He sent His Son. The wrath bearing Son is a new concept not found in Scripture nor the ECF's. God is not against Himself. There is no one in the Trinity who is in opposition, no conflict, no dissention, no strife, do dysfunction etc…….as if God were somehow like a sinful human family. There is nothing broken in Our Blessed Trinity.

Jesus bearing Gods wrath and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is nothing but an urban legend.

The following scriptures affirm Jesus relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 16:32
“A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

And add to that Jesus promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.

hope this helps !!!
 

justbyfaith

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Jesus said that just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights, so Jesus would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

And why did Jesus cry out, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani if He was not forsaken by the Father?

Did Jesus go crazy right before dying on the Cross? Was it all just only in His mind?
 

ChristisGod

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Jesus said that just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights, so Jesus would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

And why did Jesus cry out, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani if He was not forsaken by the Father?

Did Jesus go crazy right before dying on the Cross? Was it all just only in His mind?
That was explained in the OP. He was quoting the Psalm as Israels Messiah on the cross. The entire Psalm 22 unfolded before their very eyes that day. It was a declaration of His identity.
 

justbyfaith

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That was explained in the OP. He was quoting the Psalm as Israels Messiah on the cross. The entire Psalm 22 unfolded before their very eyes that day. It was a declaration of His identity.
However, he spoke the words in aramaic; which indicates that He was not merely quoting from the Bible; if He had been quoting the Bible he would have quoted it in Hebrew or from the Greek Septuagint.

That He spoke the words in aramaic indicates to me that His words were heartfelt and that He was not saying them for the sake of those who were listening; but that He was speaking them directly to the Father. He in fact hid His words from those who were listening by speaking them in a language that they couldn't understand.
 

marks

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God did not turn His back on adam when he sinned but sought him out, He didn’t turn His back on David when he sinned. God does not turn His back on us when we sin as He is there with open arms to forgive. Jesus didn’t turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and in fact sought him out on the Damascus road and said to him” why are you persecuting Me ? You see if God did not turn His back on sinners then neither did the Father turn His back on His only Son who is Holy, Blameless, Sinless, and Righteous just like His Father. It’s nothing but a modern day myth that teaches that the Father turned His back on the Son at the cross.
Aren't we brought into Christ's life specifically because God left Jesus there on the cross to die?

If we read Psalm 22 as Jesus' heart and mind while He was on the cross, and I think that's exactly what it is . . .

19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

Did Jesus' Father deliver Jesus from the sword? He was executed. From the power of the dog? The Romans did what they wanted.

Jesus did all that He did by the power of the Holy Spirit. His Words were the Father's Words. His works were the Father's works.

Did He bear the guilt of humanity into death, carried by the power of the Holy Spirit? Or was something more being said, "My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Did Jesus die a death unique to the Son of Man? Indeed yes, since He dismissed His Own Spirit. He alone had power in the day of His death.

But it seems to me that as Jesus was sharing the entirety of the human experience, and considering that He had in fact taken onto Himself our sin, I wonder that He may have for the first time not found the empowering of the Holy Spirit in Him.

I'm thinking also of Colossians, that our record of indebtedness was nailed to the cross, Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin, nailed to the cross.

There is a certain amount I think we can only speculate.

Much love!
 

Giuliano

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And add to that Jesus promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.
Did he go to be with the Father immediately or did he go to paradise as well as hell?

John 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
 

ChristisGod

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Did he go to be with the Father immediately or did he go to paradise as well as hell?

John 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
Answered that in the other thread.

Do you have anything to say about psalm 22
 

Giuliano

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Answered that in the other thread.

Do you have anything to say about psalm 22
Sorry, but I don't read every thread. What thread is that?

Yes, Jesus visited both hell and paradise after his crucifixion. After his resurrection, he ascended to the Father -- and then he told Thomas to touch him.
 
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Enoch111

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The wrath bearing Son is a new concept not found in Scripture nor the ECF's.
That is incorrect. And we already have a thread on Psalm 22:1.

Either God the Father LITERALLY forsook God the Son while He paid the penalty for our sins during those three dark hours, or both God and Christ are liars. You cannot have it both ways.
 

ChristisGod

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That is incorrect. And we already have a thread on Psalm 22:1.

Either God the Father LITERALLY forsook God the Son while He paid the penalty for our sins during those three dark hours, or both God and Christ are liars. You cannot have it both ways.
then say by by to the Trinity
 

DNB

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Psalm 22
1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
2 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
3 Yet You are holy,
O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You delivered them.
5 To You they cried out and were delivered;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
A reproach of men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8 “Commit yourself to the Lord; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”

9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10 Upon You I was cast from birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.

11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And You lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.

19 But You, O Lord, be not far off;
O You my help, hasten to my assistance.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth;
From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.

22 I will tell of Your name to my brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.

25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly;
I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26 The afflicted will eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the Lord.
Let your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord’s
And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30 Posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
31 They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.
Yes, I agree with you Christophany, that Jesus was never forsaken by God on the cross. In fact, it's actually ludicrous to say so. Throughout the latter part of Jesus' ministry, he continuously rebuked his disciples for not comprehending the principle that he must be raised from the grave, to be seated at the right-hand side of God. To not adhere to such a conviction would be construed as a lack of faith. And this indignation from Jesus towards his doubtful disciples, persisted even after he was raised from the dead. He even criticized their disbelief several times after his resurrection. That is, such a disposition was unacceptable.

Therefore, Jesus never, ever considered himself abandoned by God. For, to have such a sentiment, that is, lack of faith, would have undermined his perfection, and disqualified him from being an acceptable sacrifice to God.
Jesus uttered the words from Psalm 22 in order to impart to his onlookers, those to whom he appeared to be abandoned by God, that God never abandons the faithful despite what the circumstances might be conveying. And thus, their faith in him should remain steadfast even upon his most humiliating and debasing moments.

Outside of that Christophany, I do not agree with the majority of your points on how you derived your conclusion (even though I didn't read your entire OP).
Only Christ is currently in heaven, as far as humans are concerned. The comma is meant to come after the word 'today'. For Christ himself was not in paradise that day, he was in the grave for 3, and walked on earth for 40 more days after that.
Jesus Christ is not God! This concept is implausible, incomprehensible, nonsensicle and irrational, and thus, blasphemous and heretical.
I don't mean to criticize or start another debate, I just want my position to be clear in case it appears that I am subscribing to your entire position .
Thanks!
 

ChristisGod

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Yes, I agree with you Christophany, that Jesus was never forsaken by God on the cross. In fact, it's actually ludicrous to say so. Throughout the latter part of Jesus' ministry, he continuously rebuked his disciples for not comprehending the principle that he must be raised from the grave, to be seated at the right-hand side of God. To not adhere to such a conviction would be construed as a lack of faith. And this indignation from Jesus towards his doubtful disciples, persisted even after he was raised from the dead. He even criticized their disbelief several times after his resurrection. That is, such a disposition was unacceptable.

Therefore, Jesus never, ever considered himself abandoned by God. For, to have such a sentiment, that is, lack of faith, would have undermined his perfection, and disqualified him from being an acceptable sacrifice to God.
Jesus uttered the words from Psalm 22 in order to impart to his onlookers, those to whom he appeared to be abandoned by God, that God never abandons the faithful despite what the circumstances might be conveying. And thus, their faith in him should remain steadfast even upon his most humiliating and debasing moments.

Outside of that Christophany, I do not agree with the majority of your points on how you derived your conclusion (even though I didn't read your entire OP).
Only Christ is currently in heaven, as far as humans are concerned. The comma is meant to come after the word 'today'. For Christ himself was not in paradise that day, he was in the grave for 3, and walked on earth for 40 more days after that.
Jesus Christ is not God! This concept is implausible, incomprehensible, nonsensicle and irrational, and thus, blasphemous and heretical.
I don't mean to criticize or start another debate, I just want my position to be clear in case it appears that I am subscribing to your entire position .
Thanks!
Thanks for you feedback even though we completely disagree on Christ as God
 
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VictoryinJesus

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21 Save me from the lion’s mouth[/QUOTE]

2 Timothy 4:16-18 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. [17] Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. [18] And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
 

ChristisGod

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Evidently you do not understand God (the triune Godhead) and God's way -- "for with God nothing shall be impossible".
Evidently you don't understand the Trinity.

I sure do the Godhead cannot turn on one another for they are in perfect love, harmony and fellowship. God is not against Himself. There is no one in the Trinity who is in opposition, no conflict, no dissention, no strife, do dysfunction etc.......
I explained it in the OP.