My New Life

[Naomi25]

We have had this discussion before, if my memory is still good. In both of the passages above that you quoted re, the understanding of the word "new" as it is found in the Scriptures. The Hebrew root word H:2319 as found in Ez 36:26 is derived from the Hebrew root word :2318, which has the meaning of: - primitive root; to be new; causatively, to rebuild, and is translated in the KJV as either renew or repair, such that H:2319 can be associated with the "new {status}" of the heart. Similarly with 2 Cort 5:17 the words translated as simply "new" in this verse is from the Greek root word G:2537 and I would paraphase this verse in this manner: -

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he has become like a renewed creation. The old {personhood} has passed away; behold, all things have/{of the person has} become refreshed like new.​

The difference in our understanding might not be much, but the expression of God's desire for each and every person to be renewed into how He intended them to be from the beginning of time does not invalidate the person where he is at when he is confronted by God/Jesus. It is a process where both parties works on the reconstruction of the person and this takes time through the grace of God.

Shalom

Perhaps my memory is faulty, as I recall no such conversation. Not saying it didn't happen...just that I don't remember, sorry!
I...can't quite see how you arrive at your conculsions, however...sorry. You look at the word 'new' in Ez 36, which is Strong's no. 2319 and say we must follow it back to its root no. 2318. Now...I fully confess I am not at all studied in language, but when looking at the occasions 2319 is used, it seems that the word חָדָ֔שׁ ḥā-ḏāš, (new, 2319) is used without the need to take it back to the root of 2318. In fact, 2319 is used many times and the usage is always in the context of "new, new thing, new things, something new". We have Solomon saying that there is "nothing new under the sun". We have new kings rising, new houses being built, new songs being sung to God. All these things fit the context of things being new, not 'remade, renewed or rebuilt'.
Again, I am not sure of your paraphrasing of 2 Corinthians and the word used for 'new' there either. Especially when we look at other occasions biblical authors applied that word. We see in Matthew 27:60 that the tomb Jesus was laid in was a "new" tomb, Strongs 2537, just as 2 Cor 5:17 is, both times the Greek translations informing us that that word means: "fresh, new, unused, novel". We know for certain that Christ was not laid in a renewed tomb, a refurbished tomb. It was one that had been freshly hewn and had not had another body lie in it. It had to be that to fulfil prophecy. Thus we may be assured of that word 'new'. And, I assume, can see that word carry over to where it is used in other places.

 

[farouk]

Perhaps my memory is faulty, as I recall no such conversation. Not saying it didn't happen...just that I don't remember, sorry!
I...can't quite see how you arrive at your conculsions, however...sorry. You look at the word 'new' in Ez 36, which is Strong's no. 2319 and say we must follow it back to its root no. 2318. Now...I fully confess I am not at all studied in language, but when looking at the occasions 2319 is used, it seems that the word חָדָ֔שׁ ḥā-ḏāš, (new, 2319) is used without the need to take it back to the root of 2318. In fact, 2319 is used many times and the usage is always in the context of "new, new thing, new things, something new". We have Solomon saying that there is "nothing new under the sun". We have new kings rising, new houses being built, new songs being sung to God. All these things fit the context of things being new, not 'remade, renewed or rebuilt'.
Again, I am not sure of your paraphrasing of 2 Corinthians and the word used for 'new' there either. Especially when we look at other occasions biblical authors applied that word. We see in Matthew 27:60 that the tomb Jesus was laid in was a "new" tomb, Strongs 2537, just as 2 Cor 5:17 is, both times the Greek translations informing us that that word means: "fresh, new, unused, novel". We know for certain that Christ was not laid in a renewed tomb, a refurbished tomb. It was one that had been freshly hewn and had not had another body lie in it. It had to be that to fulfil prophecy. Thus we may be assured of that word 'new'. And, I assume, can see that word carry over to where it is used in other places.

The fact that it was a new tomb - supplied by Joseph of Arimathea - is so important; death and contagion had no hold whatsoever upon the Lord Jesus.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

We have new kings rising, new houses being built, new songs being sung to God. All these things fit the context of things being new, not 'remade, renewed or rebuilt'.

Definitely not saying I’d agree with the “new” presented by the other member as this is the first I’ve read that perspective. Only concerning your quote above ...Isaiah 58:12-13 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in. [13] If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

But also see what you are saying about a new thing...

 

[Naomi25]

"I am crucified with Christ" that means you are going to do something to make room, if you will, for this new knowledge. That is paul saying "I am crucified," a conscience knowing of what has happened to him at the cross. I think we can back up a bit and see there is a particular time after Paul became a Christian that he had a revelation of the indwelling Christ. Everything we get from paul at that point comes from "the revelation of Jesus Christ," Galatians 1:11-12. He sees there is no seperation for the believer and Christ, and his ministry never sways from that knowledge once it is made known to him. He passes that on in all his epistles to be read and understood by all that read them, Ephesians 3:1-5. We get the information from Paul that he had a revelation of the indwelling Christ, Galatians 1:15-16, and his ministry now is to preach that revelation, which is Christ, which is the gospel, Galations 1:11-12. Now we know the same revelation exsists for every believer, and that the gospel establishes the believer.

I'm afraid I still don't see your point. Yes, we are aware of Christ dwelling within us after our salvation. Of course we are...that is what the gospel preaches; be forgiven and recieve him. But knowing this, having the Spirit within us as our promised helper, still doesn't diminish the 'Christian life' as you termed it. You said that the bible doesn't speak of the Christian life. I disagree. It is full of it.

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. -Romans 6:1–4

We must walk in this life, running the race before us, denying sin, putting it to death and embracing things that glorify God. It's the fact that God dwells within us that means we can do this. But we are most certainly called to participate in it. Which is also most certainly what I would call the 'Christian life'.

 

[farouk]

I'm afraid I still don't see your point. Yes, we are aware of Christ dwelling within us after our salvation. Of course we are...that is what the gospel preaches; be forgiven and recieve him. But knowing this, having the Spirit within us as our promised helper, still doesn't diminish the 'Christian life' as you termed it. You said that the bible doesn't speak of the Christian life. I disagree. It is full of it.

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. -Romans 6:1–4

We must walk in this life, running the race before us, denying sin, putting it to death and embracing things that glorify God. It's the fact that God dwells within us that means we can do this. But we are most certainly called to participate in it. Which is also most certainly what I would call the 'Christian life'.

Maybe the discussion is at least obliquely to do with what Puritans called preparationism?

 

[Naomi25]

You know if we all would admit we have a fog in our understanding we might be better off.

I got one quick word on changing our old life. Quiting habits, someone is always coming to me needing to change their habits. Problem with that is Christ in you has no bad habits, how about seeing him as life, choose him over your mess and move on. No more laboring over the old crucified man. Trying to kill out a dead man already, very ironic. If people could really get a hold of what Paul had to say about Christianity, there would be no room for all the rehabs and therapy sessions and everything people go through. Sad deal is the church looks like the world sometime in this regard.

In one respect, I sort of agree with you, even though I'm not sure I'm on board with your definition of "Christ in you" as you put it. I think the 'key' to ridding ourselves of sin is not on 'changing our habits'. That implies trying to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps, and even now, I don't think that is something we can do...new person or not. I think that the only way we can expect lasting change is through the power of the Holy Spirit, and the Bible tells us that the Spirit's work is to point to Christ. So, trying to focus on your problem to do (x) is only looking repeatedly at (x). Instead we need to look at Christ. Think about Christ, pray to Christ, sing to Christ, draw closer to Christ. And the closer we come to him, the further away we get from (x).

 

[Jay Ross]

Perhaps my memory is faulty, as I recall no such conversation. Not saying it didn't happen...just that I don't remember, sorry!
I...can't quite see how you arrive at your conculsions, however...sorry. You look at the word 'new' in Ez 36, which is Strong's no. 2319 and say we must follow it back to its root no. 2318. Now...I fully confess I am not at all studied in language, but when looking at the occasions 2319 is used, it seems that the word חָדָ֔שׁ ḥā-ḏāš, (new, 2319) is used without the need to take it back to the root of 2318. In fact, 2319 is used many times and the usage is always in the context of "new, new thing, new things, something new". We have Solomon saying that there is "nothing new under the sun". We have new kings rising, new houses being built, new songs being sung to God. All these things fit the context of things being new, not 'remade, renewed or rebuilt'.
Again, I am not sure of your paraphrasing of 2 Corinthians and the word used for 'new' there either. Especially when we look at other occasions biblical authors applied that word. We see in Matthew 27:60 that the tomb Jesus was laid in was a "new" tomb, Strongs 2537, just as 2 Cor 5:17 is, both times the Greek translations informing us that that word means: "fresh, new, unused, novel". We know for certain that Christ was not laid in a renewed tomb, a refurbished tomb. It was one that had been freshly hewn and had not had another body lie in it. It had to be that to fulfil prophecy. Thus we may be assured of that word 'new'. And, I assume, can see that word carry over to where it is used in other places.

There are always exceptions to every claim that we may make. In your post you state that Christ was laid in a freshly hewn tomb, but the text only tells us that Christ was laid in a "fresh," kainō, tomb, with no indication as to when the tomb was hewn out of the rock and as such any conclusion as to when the tomb was hewn out of the rock is made out of the silence of the scripture. The Greek word "kainō" only appears once in the New Testament in the verse Matt 27:60. The understanding of "kainō" may well be that the tomb was fresh in that it had not been used for the burial of a previous body. Now the Greek Root G:2537 is found embedded within 14 various Greek words around 42 time in the New Testament and the actual meaning of each embedded word may have variations in their meanings. My broad brush explanation of the meaning of G:2537, may not have done justice to every embedded Greek word with this root word as you suggest.

The Same is also true for the Hebrew Root Word H:2319 which is found embedded in 9 Hebrew words 53 times as the list below shows: -

Strong's Hebrew 2319

53 Occurrences

1. ḥā·ḏāš — 16 Occ.
2. ḥă·ḏā·šāh — 17 Occ.
3. ḥă·ḏā·šîm — 10 Occ.
4. ḥă·ḏā·šō·wṯ — 1 Occ.
5. ḥā·ḏāš — 2 Occ.
6. ha·ḥă·ḏā·šāh — 3 Occ.
7. ha·ḥo·ḏā·šîm — 1 Occ.
8. he·ḥā·ḏāš — 2 Occ.
9. wa·ḥă·ḏā·šō·wṯ — 1 Occ.
​

Now your exception in Ecc 1:9 is "ḥā·ḏāš" whereas in Ez 36:26 the word is "ḥă·ḏā·šāh." The difference in the meanings of both of these different Hebrew words is not necessarily the same and as such I have found that I have to dig deeper into the understanding of each word.

In Ez 36:26, I may not have checked out the verse deeply enough as there are two different Hebrew words found with the embedded Hebrew root word H:2319 in them where the first occurrence may well be new with respect to its freshness where "heart" is reflective of the nature of the person, whereas in the second occurrence God is speaking of the renewing/refurbishing of the spirit within the person.

I apologise for not taking the time to read the verse carefully enough in my first response to you on this verse.

Shalom

 

[soul man]

I think that the only way we can expect lasting change is through the power of the Holy Spirit

Ok, sure I understand. I have a question if I may? Why would God provide a cross, and his only son would die there, if there had been the possibility of a human being able to live up to his standards without taking out the old man. Ok take a look at like this; in the OT we see men did great things for God, as well as great defeats and failures. My point is: God cannot get what he wants from a created being on their own. No matter how great their faith was and their exploits for God in the OT, he still had the cross coming one day to give him what he wanted. Think about that, there may be something he wanted, something he wants. So what makes a believer different from OT believers? They have Christ in them, and that life is their only life. Before Christ, sin was our life, not because we sinned, but because we had a sin nature-life. That is what we don't want to try and correct because it is dead in Christ. So trying to live for God by straightening out our past is not a Christian life. Living for God comes by our union knowledge with Christ in us. One in spirit "he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit," and growing in the knowledge (soul) of what happened to me at the new birth, knowledge gives me expression, it is a shared life we live "Christ in you" that is two people sharing one life, Christ life. Galations 2:20, (paraphrasing)
I am crucified with Christ on the cross (all in Adam) yet I live, but it is Christ now (instead of my death life-sin nature-old man, dead) that lives in me. We have never had a life of our own, we were created to be dependent on the life of another. Even in death life we lived by the life of another.

 

[farouk]

Ok, sure I understand. I have a question if I may? Why would God provide a cross, and his only son would die there, if there had been the possibility of a human being able to live up to his standards without taking out the old man. Ok take a look at like this; in the OT we see men did great things for God, as well as great defeats and failures. My point is: God cannot get what he wants from a created being on their own. No matter how great their faith was and their exploits for God in the OT, he still had the cross coming one day to give him what he wanted. Think about that, there may be something he wanted, something he wants. So what makes a believer different from OT believers? They have Christ in them, and that life is their only life. Before Christ, sin was our life, not because we sinned, but because we had a sin nature-life. That is what we don't want to try and correct because it is dead in Christ. So trying to live for God by straightening out our past is not a Christian life. Living for God comes by our union knowledge with Christ in us. One in spirit "he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit," and growing in the knowledge (soul) of what happened to me at the new birth, knowledge gives me expression, it is a shared life we live "Christ in you" that is two people sharing one life, Christ life. Galations 2:20, (paraphrasing)
I am crucified with Christ on the cross (all in Adam) yet I live, but it is Christ now (instead of my death life-sin nature-old man, dead) that lives in me. We have never had a life of our own, we were created to be dependent on the life of another. Even in death life we lived by the life of another.

The holy mystery of Bethlehem involved the fact that He was born to die at the Cross.

 

[Naomi25]

There are always exceptions to every claim that we may make. In your post you state that Christ was laid in a freshly hewn tomb, but the text only tells us that Christ was laid in a "fresh," kainō, tomb, with no indication as to when the tomb was hewn out of the rock and as such any conclusion as to when the tomb was hewn out of the rock is made out of the silence of the scripture.

Well, I do not believe this to be exactly accurate.

and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had cut in the rock. And he rolled a great stone to the entrance of the tomb and went away. -Matthew 27:60

The verse tells us that "he"...Joseph of Arimathea..had cut in the rock, this 'new' tomb of his. This tells us that the tomb did not exist before Joseph had it made for his own purpose, and then gave it over to Christ.
So, I believe in this instance, we can safely say that the context of the verse allows us to interpret "kaino" as new new, rather than just 'fresh'.

The Greek word "kainō" only appears once in the New Testament in the verse Matt 27:60. The understanding of "kainō" may well be that the tomb was fresh in that it had not been used for the burial of a previous body. Now the Greek Root G:2537 is found embedded within 14 various Greek words around 42 time in the New Testament and the actual meaning of each embedded word may have variations in their meanings. My broad brush explanation of the meaning of G:2537, may not have done justice to every embedded Greek word with this root word as you suggest.

The Same is also true for the Hebrew Root Word H:2319 which is found embedded in 9 Hebrew words 53 times as the list below shows: -

Strong's Hebrew 2319


53 Occurrences

1. ḥā·ḏāš — 16 Occ.
2. ḥă·ḏā·šāh — 17 Occ.
3. ḥă·ḏā·šîm — 10 Occ.
4. ḥă·ḏā·šō·wṯ — 1 Occ.
5. ḥā·ḏāš — 2 Occ.
6. ha·ḥă·ḏā·šāh — 3 Occ.
7. ha·ḥo·ḏā·šîm — 1 Occ.
8. he·ḥā·ḏāš — 2 Occ.
9. wa·ḥă·ḏā·šō·wṯ — 1 Occ.
​

Now your exception in Ecc 1:9 is "ḥā·ḏāš" whereas in Ez 36:26 the word is "ḥă·ḏā·šāh." The difference in the meanings of both of these different Hebrew words is not necessarily the same and as such I have found that I have to dig deeper into the understanding of each word.

In Ez 36:26, I may not have checked out the verse deeply enough as there are two different Hebrew words found with the embedded Hebrew root word H:2319 in them where the first occurrence may well be new with respect to its freshness where "heart" is reflective of the nature of the person, whereas in the second occurrence God is speaking of the renewing/refurbishing of the spirit within the person.

I apologise for not taking the time to read the verse carefully enough in my first response to you on this verse.

Shalom

I suppose, like you, I have not the time to dig into the hebrew roots of the word. Probably not the understanding either. However, I would say that when we're talking about the passage where God promises to place a 'new' heart within us, I would urge a theological caution over just suggestion the word used could, or should, be seen as just a 'renewing'. As people without God we are seen both as spiritually dead and with hearts of stone. In our regenertaion God promises to remove our hearts of stone and replace it with hearts of flesh. New life is given to us. While yes, we are of course still us, there is a very real sense of newness; a new life, a new understanding and a new connection with God that was simply impossible before.

 

[Naomi25]

Ok, sure I understand. I have a question if I may? Why would God provide a cross, and his only son would die there, if there had been the possibility of a human being able to live up to his standards without taking out the old man. Ok take a look at like this; in the OT we see men did great things for God, as well as great defeats and failures. My point is: God cannot get what he wants from a created being on their own. No matter how great their faith was and their exploits for God in the OT, he still had the cross coming one day to give him what he wanted. Think about that, there may be something he wanted, something he wants. So what makes a believer different from OT believers? They have Christ in them, and that life is their only life. Before Christ, sin was our life, not because we sinned, but because we had a sin nature-life. That is what we don't want to try and correct because it is dead in Christ. So trying to live for God by straightening out our past is not a Christian life. Living for God comes by our union knowledge with Christ in us. One in spirit "he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit," and growing in the knowledge (soul) of what happened to me at the new birth, knowledge gives me expression, it is a shared life we live "Christ in you" that is two people sharing one life, Christ life. Galations 2:20, (paraphrasing)
I am crucified with Christ on the cross (all in Adam) yet I live, but it is Christ now (instead of my death life-sin nature-old man, dead) that lives in me. We have never had a life of our own, we were created to be dependent on the life of another. Even in death life we lived by the life of another.

I have a feeling we're both talking and neither of us is managing to 'hit' it, in terms of the other really hearing.
I am not speaking of the 'Christian life' as being one where we attempt, on our own, to straighten up and do right. I also think that what saved people in the OT is what saves them now: the Holy Spirit. Christ still had to come for either, it's just back then, they were looking forward in faith to the promise of his coming, and now we look back in faith to the event. Either way, though, the bible is clear: Abraham (and those like him) was saved through faith alone. We are not saved because we suddenly have Jesus living inside us. We are saved because we have faith in his work on the cross. That faith means we have recieved the promised Holy Spirit, which is, essentially, Christ's presence with us, and it is the Spirit's work within us that allows us to 'walk the walk'. Again, I point to the numerous scripural passages that speak of said walk to prove that it IS a thing. We do not shed responsibilty for that walk, as we would if indeed it were just Christ living through us. Instead we must walk with theh Spirit and follow the directions the apotles give us. Not because it saves us, but because becoming more Christlike brings us more joy. And when the people of God are joyful, God himself is more glorified. He does not need the begruding servitute of his children, but when we love him, and make choices that bring us closer to him? Ah, the Kingdom come!

 

[soul man]

I have a feeling we're both talking and neither of us is managing to 'hit' it, in terms of the other really hearing.
I am not speaking of the 'Christian life' as being one where we attempt, on our own, to straighten up and do right. I also think that what saved people in the OT is what saves them now: the Holy Spirit. Christ still had to come for either, it's just back then, they were looking forward in faith to the promise of his coming, and now we look back in faith to the event. Either way, though, the bible is clear: Abraham (and those like him) was saved through faith alone. We are not saved because we suddenly have Jesus living inside us. We are saved because we have faith in his work on the cross. That faith means we have recieved the promised Holy Spirit, which is, essentially, Christ's presence with us, and it is the Spirit's work within us that allows us to 'walk the walk'. Again, I point to the numerous scripural passages that speak of said walk to prove that it IS a thing. We do not shed responsibilty for that walk, as we would if indeed it were just Christ living through us. Instead we must walk with theh Spirit and follow the directions the apotles give us. Not because it saves us, but because becoming more Christlike brings us more joy. And when the people of God are joyful, God himself is more glorified. He does not need the begruding servitute of his children, but when we love him, and make choices that bring us closer to him? Ah, the Kingdom come!

Thank you for the nice comments. It's ok most of us have different understandings on certain things. I do have a question, this is one I ask myself quite a bit. How can a dead man do anything? I know that sounds kind of funny but for lack of a better way of saying it. If we have actually been crucified with Christ on the cross (I believe we were, all in Adam according to scripture), how do we have any other life now accept his life?

 

[Not me]

Thank you for the nice comments. It's ok most of us have different understandings on certain things. I do have a question, this is one I ask myself quite a bit. How can a dead man do anything? I know that sounds kind of funny but for lack of a better way of saying it. If we have actually been crucified with Christ on the cross (I believe we were, all in Adam according to scripture), how do we have any other life now accept his life?

Hi, I hope it’s ok if I butt in here but this question is a great and on point one, and is the heart of our understanding of what it means to be dead in Christ. “Dead man can’t do anything” and this is the exact point that needs to be understood. We are dead...When Christ died we died. It is by faith we are told to lay hold of this truth...Though the body of this death, still has it’s longings, desires and lusts, we have died to it. Dead man don’t have to respond to it’s will anymore...We, by, reckoning it so, are freed to be joined to another master (Christ). This is all done by the faith of the heart turned towards it.. For our salvation is a free gift of God to man and it is accessed by the faith of the heart turned towards it.

Be blessed as you go to God and ask about these things for in them is freedom from sin, yourself, the sin factory that is us, to be found.

In Christ, Not me

 

[Naomi25]

Thank you for the nice comments. It's ok most of us have different understandings on certain things. I do have a question, this is one I ask myself quite a bit. How can a dead man do anything? I know that sounds kind of funny but for lack of a better way of saying it. If we have actually been crucified with Christ on the cross (I believe we were, all in Adam according to scripture), how do we have any other life now accept his life?

It is very true Christ gives us NEW life; thus the bible verse promising a new heart and spirit. However, he does not give us HIS life. We are able to live our new lives through him, and it is by the Spirit within us that we move forward in Godliness. But again, we do not have HIS life. And the reason for this is obvious, if you think about it. Christ is God; we are not. Christ is perfect and we, even with our new lives, are not. Christ dwells in perfect harmony and unity with the Trinity, we do not. And on it goes. IF we actually had HIS life living within us, we would be able to claim these things too. We cannot. We can claim access to them via our risen Lord. We have adoption into his family; thus we can also call his father, our father. And we can also know that we will have a place at the table, or in heaven, if you will, by his side. But all of that comes from a representative subsitution that took place on the cross. He took on the legal status of our sin and we took on the legal status of his righteousness. But, again, while our souls now bare that righteousness because he exchanged places with us, we do not have Christ's life.
Think of it a bit like a marriage. When I married my husband, I took on his last name. That also meant that I took on, legally, his assets, debts, legal responsibilities, etc. I am not him, but because he gave me his name, his promise, I can claim all those things through him. I can also be sure he will be walking beside me in life to help me with all those things; I need not fear walking alone. Thus it is with Christ. He gave us his legal status on the cross; righteous. And he promised the Holy Spirit to walk with us in this life forever to bring us ever closer to Christ. This is one of the reasons why biblical marriage is a symbol of the union between Christ and his Church.

 

[DoveSpirit05]

2 Corinth 14:26 I believe, the outer man perishes but the inner man is renewed!!