My problem, personal yes problem with BORN again

[PinSeeker]

The resurrection, as in our own, is not past, and is still in the future.

Those who have been born again have experienced the first resurrection, which is spiritual rather than physical. The spiritual "part" of us (so to speak), once dead in sin, has been raised up with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Him (Ephesians 2:6). So the spiritual is alive now in the physical. This is the first resurrection. And this is what John is saying in Revelation 20:4-6. Through the course of the millennium, people are being spiritually raised in Christ, and this is the first resurrection; John says, "blessed and holy are those who share in it," the necessary implication being that there are some who are not blessed and holy and do not share in it, so this first resurrection, spiritual in nature, being born again of the Spirit, is specific ~ only given to God's elect.

And the fact that there is a first resurrection necessarily implies that there is a second, which will be not specific only to God's elect as the first resurrection, but general to all. All will be resurrected physically (bodily) at the day of Christ, and then the judgment will ensue. We see pictures of this physical resurrection and allusions to it in Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 14:13-15, Luke 20:34-36, John 5:28-30, and John 11:23-25. And also in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54... Paul is talking specifically to believers (Christians in Corinth) about their experience in this second, general, physical (bodily) resurrection. We will be the ones who are raised, as John says in John 5:29, to eternal life, but others will be raised ~ at the same time, the Day of Christ ~ to judgment.

I'm not sure if you believe in this manner or not, Scott, you tell me, but the spiritual and the physical are not ~ not ~ mutually exclusive. And that is true both in this life (temporally) and the next (in eternity).

One final thing, Scott. In Revelation 21, God says, "Behold, I am making all things new." Some seem to turn that completely around and think He is making 'all new things." No, again, He is making all things new.

If one has never called on the Lord in faith- one is not saved!

Sure. Of course. So faith is the prerequisite, right? If one does not have faith, he or she will never call on the Lord. So then, where do we get our faith, Ronald? Who gives it? Do we give it to ourselves? You even say, "as for saving people- it is to bring them to a faith confession." Well, I agree. Aren't you saying here that God Himself is the giver of faith? It is, Ronald. We do not manufacture faith ~ which is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen ~ in ourselves; we do not assure or convict ourselves. Faith is a gift of the Spirit, as Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, particularly verse 9:

"Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills."

Grace and peace to you both!

 

[Scott Downey]

Those who have been born again have experienced the first resurrection, which is spiritual rather than physical. The spiritual "part" of us (so to speak), once dead in sin, has been raised up with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Him (Ephesians 2:6). So the spiritual is alive now in the physical. This is the first resurrection. And this is what John is saying in Revelation 20:4-6. Through the course of the millennium, people are being spiritually raised in Christ, and this is the first resurrection; John says, "blessed and holy are those who share in it," the necessary implication being that there are some who are not blessed and holy and do not share in it, so this first resurrection, spiritual in nature, being born again of the Spirit, is specific ~ only given to God's elect.

And the fact that there is a first resurrection necessarily implies that there is a second, which will be not specific only to God's elect as the first resurrection, but general to all. All will be resurrected physically (bodily) at the day of Christ, and then the judgment will ensue. We see pictures of this physical resurrection and allusions to it in Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 14:13-15, Luke 20:34-36, John 5:28-30, and John 11:23-25. And also in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54... Paul is talking specifically to believers (Christians in Corinth) about their experience in this second, general, physical (bodily) resurrection. We will be the ones who are raised, as John says in John 5:29, to eternal life, but others will be raised ~ at the same time, the Day of Christ ~ to judgment.

I'm not sure if you believe in this manner or not, Scott, you tell me, but the spiritual and the physical are not ~ not ~ mutually exclusive. And that is true both in this life (temporally) and the next (in eternity).

One final thing, Scott. In Revelation 21, God says, "Behold, I am making all things new." Some seem to turn that completely around and think He is making 'all new things." No, again, He is making all things new.


Sure. Of course. So faith is the prerequisite, right? If one does not have faith, he or she will never call on the Lord. So then, where do we get our faith, Ronald? Who gives it? Do we give it to ourselves? You even say, "as for saving people- it is to bring them to a faith confession." Well, I agree. Aren't you saying here that God Himself is the giver of faith? It is, Ronald. We do not manufacture faith ~ which is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen ~ in ourselves; we do not assure or convict ourselves. Faith is a gift of the Spirit, as Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, particularly verse 9:

"Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills."

Grace and peace to you both!

From my understanding of the word 'resurrect', means to put a spirit back into a living body, so a physical body again.
Your thinking places resurrection the same as to being born again with a new living spirit.

Ask yourself, at what point was Christ resurrected?
Answer when he walked out of the tomb in his body on the third day, Christ rose again, before Christ ascends to the Father.

1. Matthew 16:21
   Jesus Predicts His Death and Resurrection
   From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Matthew 17:23
   and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up.” And they were exceedingly sorrowful.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Matthew 20:19
   and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Matthew 27:64
   Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away, and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
5. Mark 9:31
   For He taught His disciples and said to them, “The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him. And after He is killed, He will rise the third day.”
6. Luke 24:46
   Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
   

 

[Scott Downey]

Acts 10, Peter preaches the resurrection happened on the 3rd day, after Christ was killed on the tree, on the 3rd day, He rose from the dead.

39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

 

[Scott Downey]

Revelation 20 and the first resurrection. This is at the return of Christ, when the souls of believers who had died rise again.
The rest of the dead do not live again until the 1000 years are completed. There is a resurrection of the just (justified by their faith), the first resurrection, where like Christ said, the meek inherit the earth. But there is also a resurrection the wicked which comes later. Seems only fair that the dead in Christ should rise first which is also spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 which is also the first resurrection. Still living believers get joined in with them after they rise first., all this happens on the last day.

New King James Version
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [a]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

1. John 6:39
   This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. John 6:40
   And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. John 6:44
   No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. John 6:54
   Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 20
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

 

[Scott Downey]

By the way to live again and reign with Christ this 1000 years, they have to no longer be disembodied living spirits, they also need a living physical body again, and no wonder as this happens when Christ returns to where? The earth.
God formed the earth to be inhabited, with people, including the new earth to come.
So they get this new body and are on the earth living again and walking. God likes the idea so much, that in the new earth after the old one is gone, he moves down to the new earth and lives among his people on the new earth. Like full circle, in the beginning with Adam and Eve, God visited them in the garden, and now again, God dwells among his people on the new earth.
And again God refers to the nations

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea.

2 And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.”

5 And He that sat upon the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said unto me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels, who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, “Come hither; I will show thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the Holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God,

11 having the glory of God. And her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.

24 And the nations of them that are saved shall walk in the light of it, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.

26 and they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.

Revelation 22:2
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, there was the Tree of Life, which bore twelve kinds of fruit and yielded her fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

[PinSeeker]

From my understanding of the word 'resurrect', means to put a spirit back into a living body, so a physical body again.

Right, I agree, and this is true of both the first and second resurrection ~ for members of God's elect.

Your thinking places resurrection the same as to being born again with a new living spirit.

Well, sort of, I guess... I would say both yes and no to this. Actually, I would just clarify what you say here, and say that in being born again, we who were once dead in spirit, dead in our sin (and therefore slaves of unrighteousness) have been made alive together with Christ, and raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, just as Paul says in Ephesians 2:5-6. Consider what Paul says in Romans 6:

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death He died He died to sin, once for all, but the life He lives He lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus." (Romans 6:5-11)

This is the first resurrection, and it occurs, for all Christians, at some point in our temporal lives, and is spiritual in nature. As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:46, it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. This is not to be understood as the spiritual "replacing" the physical, but rather the spiritual being brought to life in ~ united with ~ the physical.

And in the second resurrection, upon Christ's return, for us as believers, the spiritual will be reunited with the physical. This is what I meant previously by the spiritual and physical not being (as some seem to believe) mutually exclusive.

Ask yourself, at what point was Christ resurrected?

Right, but you're speaking only of the second resurrection ~ the physical resurrection ~ as it concerns us as Christians, Scott. We know and all agree that Christ was physically resurrected, and this guarantees that we will be, too. This is the second resurrection. However, as God in the flesh, Christ didn't need to experience the first, spiritual resurrection ~ He didn't need to be born again of the Spirit; He was never dead in sin as we are from birth, never in need of being justified, and never needing salvation. I don't really disagree with you, but you're only really addressing... well, as it concerns us, half of the story, so to speak. Our first resurrection, spiritual in nature, guarantees that we will be resurrected physically at the Day of Christ to life rather than to judgment as John puts it (actually quoting Jesus, of course) in John 5:29.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Scott Downey]

Right, I agree, and this is true of both the first and second resurrection ~ for members of God's elect.


Well, sort of, I guess... I would say both yes and no to this. Actually, I would just clarify what you say here, and say that in being born again, we who were once dead in spirit, dead in our sin (and therefore slaves of unrighteousness) have been made alive together with Christ, and raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, just as Paul says in Ephesians 2:5-6. Consider what Paul says in Romans 6:

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death He died He died to sin, once for all, but the life He lives He lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus." (Romans 6:5-11)

This is the first resurrection, and it occurs, for all Christians, at some point in our temporal lives, and is spiritual in nature. As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:46, it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. This is not to be understood as the spiritual "replacing" the physical, but rather the spiritual being brought to life in ~ united with ~ the physical.

And in the second resurrection, upon Christ's return, for us as believers, the spiritual will be reunited with the physical. This is what I meant previously by the spiritual and physical not being (as some seem to believe) mutually exclusive.


Right, but you're speaking only of the second resurrection ~ the physical resurrection ~ as it concerns us as Christians, Scott. We know and all agree that Christ was physically resurrected, and this guarantees that we will be, too. This is the second resurrection. However, as God in the flesh, Christ didn't need to experience the first, spiritual resurrection ~ He didn't need to be born again of the Spirit; He was never dead in sin as we are from birth, never in need of being justified, and never needing salvation. I don't really disagree with you, but you're only really addressing... well, as it concerns us, half of the story, so to speak. Our first resurrection, spiritual in nature, guarantees that we will be resurrected physically at the Day of Christ to life rather than to judgment as John puts it (actually quoting Jesus, of course) in John 5:29.

Grace and peace to you.

Simply there is no spiritual resurrection of the old dead spirit
Being born again means we get a new alive spirit, there is no resurrecting of the prior dead spirit, it is a new spirit.

 

[Behold]

The spiritual "part" of us (so to speak), once dead in sin, has been raised up with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Him (Ephesians 2:6). !

Being born again, is a 2nd Birthday........ not a resurrection. as you are BORN Again... Not Resurrected again for the first time.

There is a CULT that teaches that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God= in heaven, before He was virgin born on earth.
These people try to deny the deity of Christ, of course., but even that is nothing compared the heresy of "Jesus the only begotten son in heaven, before His Incarnation".

Truly that is just crazy Theology, and for some reason, the devil is able to CONVINCE with the craziest concepts, his deceived.

Another CULT crazy teaching is..."you must be born again to then be able to have FAITH in Christ".

So, that is Triple Crazy, and yet, people believe it and teach it.

 

[PinSeeker]

Revelation 20 and the first resurrection. This is at the return of Christ, when the souls of believers who had died rise again. The rest of the dead do not live again until the 1000 years are completed. There is a resurrection of the just (justified by their faith), the first resurrection, where like Christ said, the meek inherit the earth. But there is also a resurrection the wicked which comes later. Seems only fair that the dead in Christ should rise first which is also spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 which is also the first resurrection. Still living believers get joined in with them after they rise first., all this happens on the last day.

See, maybe you are not, but I think I understand you here to be conflating two things, the first and second resurrections. I'll just make these points:

• Only God's elect experience the first resurrection (I think we agree on this).
• This resurrection occurs individually over the course of the millennium, which is not literally one thousand 365-day periods, but the fullness of God's time in bringing elect Gentiles in to His Israel and then the re-grafting in of ethnic Jews who are reborn of the Spirit and come to belief in Christ (the removing the partial hardening that is now on Israel). This is how all of God's Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-26).
• This first resurrection is described in Revelation 20:4-6 and is specific to God's elect only.
• the second resurrection, the resurrection at the Day of Christ, can be considered two separate events in one sense, but one big event in another. Yes, the dead in Christ will be raised first, so in this sense they are separate events. But the dead not in Christ will be raised also, but immediately (or very shortly) after the dead in Christ are physically raised, so in this sense it is all one big event; both will happen on the last day. Kind of like a college basketball game... the second half immediately follows the first.*

* Sorry to be a little facetious with the college basketball thing... ... but it helps to see the point regarding the second resurrection.

• I disagree that the first resurrection is what Paul is describing in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Rather, it is the second; he is reassuring the Thessalonian Christians ~ and us, really, as this is God's Word, after all ~ that those of us who are still alive at Christ's return will be caught up with Christ along with those who have died in Christ. So first they are raised/resurrected, as Paul says, but we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them, those who have fallen asleep (those who have died in Christ) to meet the Lord.
• Revelation 20:11-12 describes this second resurrection ~ is actually the scene immediately after the second, general resurrection, in which Christ is seated and all stand before Him for the final Judgment (some on His right and some on His left, as in Matthew 25; some who have been resurrected to life and some resurrected to judgment, as in John 5:29).

By the way to live again and reign with Christ this 1000 years, they have to no longer be disembodied living spirits, they also need a living physical body again...

Disagree. Just as Christ yielded up His spirit to the Father (Matthew 27:50), committed His spirit to the Father (Luke 23:46), gave up His spirit to the Father (John 19:30), so will it be for us, God's elect, when we physically die (as He did on the cross). Just like the thief crucified on Jesus's right, when we physically die, which will occur for each of us individually, our spirits will be with Jesus in paradise that very day (Luke 23:43). This is because we have experienced the first resurrection. And then on the Day of Christ, yes, when He returns to earth, when we, God's elect, are physically resurrected, our spirits will be reunited with our physical, resurrected bodies.

So they get this new body and are on the earth living again and walking.

Well, again, rather than making all new things ~ or really, any new things ~ God is making all things new. Yes, on the earth living again and walking, sure.

God likes the idea so much, that in the new earth after the old one is gone, he moves down to the new earth and lives among his people on the new earth.

I mean, maybe this is what you are saying, but again I say, He is not "making new things," but He is making all things new.

Like full circle, in the beginning with Adam and Eve, God visited them in the garden, and now again, God dwells among his people on the new earth.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Simply there is no spiritual resurrection of the old dead spirit. Being born again means we get a new alive spirit, there is no resurrecting of the prior dead spirit, it is a new spirit.

Being born again means our spirit, which from birth was dead in sin, is made alive.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[amigo de christo]

Being born again is the true birthday that matters . Now let all that has breath praise the glorious LORD .

 

[amigo de christo]

The born again love the things JESUS taught , they love the truth and embrace the truth in that bible .
FOR GOD has shed that love upon their hearts . THEY WORSHIP GOD IN SPIRIT and IN TRUTH
and THEY KNOW The only way to be saved is , BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST . Be hearers and doers of all things
HE taught and later the apostels taught in that bible . Now lift those hands up and let the LORD be praised and thanked .

 

[PinSeeker]

Being born again, is a 2nd Birthday........ not a resurrection.

In being born again, Behold, we are brought from death in sin to life in Christ. It is a resurrection. Not physical, but spiritual. This is the first resurrection.

There is a CULT that teaches that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God= in heaven, before He was virgin born on earth. These people try to deny the deity of Christ, of course., but even that is nothing compared the heresy of "Jesus the only begotten son in heaven, before His Incarnation".

Well, they take out of context what it means to be begotten of God. I agree, Jesus was not created. He was with the Father (and the Holy Spirit) from all eternity.

Another CULT crazy teaching is..."you must be born again to then be able to have FAITH in Christ."

I'm not sure who you're referring to, here, Behold, but I would call this one and the same event, really. You understand what faith is, right? I mean, God defines it for us as the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). Surely you are not saying that we assure and convict ourselves... are you? And I think you remember too what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12, particularly in 1 Corinthians 12:9. We are given spiritual gifts by the Holy Spirit as God the Father wills, and faith is one of those gifts.

We do not manufacture our faith ourselves and then somehow deserve to be born again. If we were to suppose that, then we are making faith out to be a work of man, and then even making God's grace out to be... not grace ~ unmerited favor ~ at all. See? So no, by grace we have been saved through faith, and this is not our own doing, but the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). It is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace (Romans 11:6).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sure. Of course. So faith is the prerequisite, right? If one does not have faith, he or she will never call on the Lord. So then, where do we get our faith, Ronald? Who gives it? Do we give it to ourselves? You even say, "as for saving people- it is to bring them to a faith confession." Well, I agree. Aren't you saying here that God Himself is the giver of faith? It is, Ronald. We do not manufacture faith ~ which is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen ~ in ourselves; we do not assure or convict ourselves. Faith is a gift of the Spirit, as Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, particularly verse 9:

To this I say amen! Saving faith comes from God through the hearing of the gospel as is written in Romans 10.

 

[PinSeeker]

To this I say amen! Saving faith comes from God through the hearing of the gospel as is written in Romans 10.

Right, and by the work of the Spirit in us; it is He Who gives us the assurance and convicts (in Hebrews 11:1 terms). This is the Spirit's gift to us, by the will of the Father. The Spirit works faith in us.

Grace and peace to you, Ronald! And all, of course.

 

[Heart2Soul]

See but here, you're actually unintentionally refuting yourself, Ronald. We cannot know this, and neither really can Alfred. One's being reborn of the Spirit, given new birth in the Spirit, always ~ always, even if only momentarily ~ precedes our repentance and belief. Our repentance and belief is the inevitable result of having been born again of the Spirit.

I agree....and I would like to point out that Elizabeth's baby discerned the presence of the Lord and leaped with Joy and immediately Elizabeth was filled with the Spirit...and think about it...the baby in the womb leaping for joy...how could he know it was Jesus while in the womb?...by the power of the Holy Spirit in him to discern this.

Luke 1 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
⁴¹ And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
⁴² And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
⁴³ And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
⁴⁴ For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
⁴⁵ And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

EDITED:
Elizabeth spoke out loudly? The Holy Spirit spoke out through her and confirmed her pregnancy was indeed from God.
I am sure Mary could have used reassurance at that time, especially at that stage of her pregnancy when women tend to become emotional and feeling ugly....imho.

 

[Scott Downey]

See, maybe you are not, but I think I understand you here to be conflating two things, the first and second resurrections. I'll just make these points:

• Only God's elect experience the first resurrection (I think we agree on this).
• This resurrection occurs individually over the course of the millennium, which is not literally one thousand 365-day periods, but the fullness of God's time in bringing elect Gentiles in to His Israel and then the re-grafting in of ethnic Jews who are reborn of the Spirit and come to belief in Christ (the removing the partial hardening that is now on Israel). This is how all of God's Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-26).
• This first resurrection is described in Revelation 20:4-6 and is specific to God's elect only.
• the second resurrection, the resurrection at the Day of Christ, can be considered two separate events in one sense, but one big event in another. Yes, the dead in Christ will be raised first, so in this sense they are separate events. But the dead not in Christ will be raised also, but immediately (or very shortly) after the dead in Christ are physically raised, so in this sense it is all one big event; both will happen on the last day. Kind of like a college basketball game... the second half immediately follows the first.*

* Sorry to be a little facetious with the college basketball thing... ... but it helps to see the point regarding the second resurrection.

• I disagree that the first resurrection is what Paul is describing in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Rather, it is the second; he is reassuring the Thessalonian Christians ~ and us, really, as this is God's Word, after all ~ that those of us who are still alive at Christ's return will be caught up with Christ along with those who have died in Christ. So first they are raised/resurrected, as Paul says, but we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them, those who have fallen asleep (those who have died in Christ) to meet the Lord.
• Revelation 20:11-12 describes this second resurrection ~ is actually the scene immediately after the second, general resurrection, in which Christ is seated and all stand before Him for the final Judgment (some on His right and some on His left, as in Matthew 25; some who have been resurrected to life and some resurrected to judgment, as in John 5:29).

Disagree. Just as Christ yielded up His spirit to the Father (Matthew 27:50), committed His spirit to the Father (Luke 23:46), gave up His spirit to the Father (John 19:30), so will it be for us, God's elect, when we physically die (as He did on the cross). Just like the thief crucified on Jesus's right, when we physically die, which will occur for each of us individually, our spirits will be with Jesus in paradise that very day (Luke 23:43). This is because we have experienced the first resurrection. And then on the Day of Christ, yes, when He returns to earth, when we, God's elect, are physically resurrected, our spirits will be reunited with our physical, resurrected bodies.


Well, again, rather than making all new things ~ or really, any new things ~ God is making all things new. Yes, on the earth living again and walking, sure.


I mean, maybe this is what you are saying, but again I say, He is not "making new things," but He is making all things new.


I wholeheartedly agree.


Being born again means our spirit, which from birth was dead in sin, is made alive.

Grace and peace to you.

I wanted to explore this further...↑

I said this
By the way to live again and reign with Christ this 1000 years, they have to no longer be disembodied living spirits, they also need a living physical body again...

You said this
Disagree. Just as Christ yielded up His spirit to the Father (Matthew 27:50), committed His spirit to the Father (Luke 23:46), gave up His spirit to the Father (John 19:30), so will it be for us, God's elect, when we physically die (as He did on the cross). Just like the thief crucified on Jesus's right, when we physically die, which will occur for each of us individually, our spirits will be with Jesus in paradise that very day (Luke 23:43). This is because we have experienced the first resurrection. And then on the Day of Christ, yes, when He returns to earth, when we, God's elect, are physically resurrected, our spirits will be reunited with our physical, resurrected bodies.
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I say this
Christ has a glorified body, not just a spiritual existence, John tells us we will have a body like He has. And we shall see Christ as He is.
Jesus when he appears to the disciples, to offer proof of his being physically alive, and not just some ghost says,

Luke 24:38-40
21st Century King James Version
38 And He said unto them, “Why are ye troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me to have.”

40 And when He had thus spoken, He showed them His hands and His feet.

Apparently, this kind of glorified body can come and go as it pleases, perhaps fly like the wind, become invisible, etc... perhaps go into the dimension of heaven and earth and also appear as a physical body. You cannot separate Christ from his glorified body, neither can you do this for any Christian who has received his glorified new body.

Philippians 3
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

1 John 3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

 

[Scott Downey]

A practical example shows the truth that spiritual beings need a physical body to interact in the physical world. Exception would be the Spirit of God. Even a Holy Elect Angel of God has a body of some kind, look at how they have shown themselves to people in scripture.
Demons, who are disembodied spirits of the Nephilim killed in Noah's flood have lost their body and are now spirit powers of the air, and the wicked have no rest do they.
They seek to inhabit a body as they are otherwise traveling in waste places and cannot do a whole lot, they seek to possess another body and take one by force is the only way they can do that. Even Satan entered Judas. that is how they sway minds .
Luke 22:3
Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve.

43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Some foundational truths for believers in Hebrews 6 includes the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgement. Resurrection is always a resurrection of the dead as in a physical raising up, like the graves are opened and the dead walk out.
You could never say the wicked are made spiritually alive by being resurrected to then be cast into hell only in spirit form. Both just and the unjust are resurrected into a body of some kind, and then come their eternal judgement.

1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

As did Paul say about resurrection,
Acts 24:15
I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Peter says
Acts 2
30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

 

[PinSeeker]

Christ has a glorified body, not just a spiritual existence, John tells us we will have a body like He has. And we shall see Christ as He is. Jesus when he appears to the disciples, to offer proof of his being physically alive, and not just some ghost...

Absolutely.

Resurrection is always a resurrection of the dead as in a physical raising up, like the graves are opened and the dead walk out.

Right. This is the second resurrection. But the first is a spiritual resurrection of God's elect, each at his own time at the appointed time of God (as in Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed") from being dead in his/her sin.

You could never say the wicked are made spiritually alive by being resurrected to then be cast into hell only in spirit form. Both just and the unjust are resurrected into a body of some kind, and then come their eternal judgement.

Absolutely.

Grace and peace to you, Scott!

 

[Scott Downey]

1 John 3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

We get our glorified bodies at Christ's return, and not before. Notice it says when He is revealed, that is when He returns to this world at the second coming, we all get transformed. This must be the first resurrection as this is when the dead in Christ rise first.

When the TRUMPET Sounds this will occur

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
New King James Version
51 Behold, I tell you a [a]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
New King James Version
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [a]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.