Name a really bad doctrine that needs retiring

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StanJ

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This Vale Of Tears said:
And 2Thessalonians 2. The apostles didn't teach a magical rapture before we actually suffer for the faith, they taught what tribulation we would see before the Lord returns. And Paul's specific, direct refutation of the rapture teaching in the second Thessalonian epistle should, by all reasonable standards, lay the controversy to rest.
All 2 Thess 2:3 says is; Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
I don't see this as stating we go through any tribulation and as v8 shows "Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.", there is no reason for me to believe otherwise.
I don't know WHAT rapture teaching you are referring to, but the one I believe will happen is the one identified in scripture as I have previously shown.
 

shturt678s

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Thank you for caring again!

Only a head's up brother Stan. IIThess.2:9, even at the time of Paul's writing, the apostasy (the "Tribulation") was working in secret because it was still be held down; but the restraining power and its agent will eventually be removed of curse...'secret lawlessness." We want to unveil this "secret" letting others understand that we are nearing the end of the "Tribulation," correct?

Old Jack
 

StanJ

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shturt678s said:
Thank you for caring again!

Only a head's up brother Stan. IIThess.2:9, even at the time of Paul's writing, the apostasy (the "Tribulation") was working in secret because it was still be held down; but the restraining power and its agent will eventually be removed of curse...'secret lawlessness." We want to unveil this "secret" letting others understand that we are nearing the end of the "Tribulation," correct?

Old Jack
Apostasy is NOT tribulation. Apostasy is falling away. The GREAT falling away has not started.
2 Thess 2:9;
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,
This will happen in the future.
 

shturt678s

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StanJ said:
Apostasy is NOT tribulation. Apostasy is falling away. The GREAT falling away has not started.
2 Thess 2:9;
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,
This will happen in the future.
Thank you for your response again!

I don't know....hmmm....Rev.7:14 speaks of all the "tribulations" throughout the whole N.T.

The "apostasy" began at 70 A.D. in light of Lk.21:24 continuing throughout the whole N.T.

In the future???

Old "nowist" Jack
 

StanJ

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shturt678s said:
Thank you for your response again!

I don't know....hmmm....Rev.7:14 speaks of all the "tribulations" throughout the whole N.T.

The "apostasy" began at 70 A.D. in light of Lk.21:24 continuing throughout the whole N.T.

In the future???

Old "nowist" Jack
Let's try not to use equivocal language Jack. Rev 7:14 talks about the GREAT Tribulation, not tribulations. We all go through trials and tribulations.
The GREAT Apostasy is yet to happen. Apostasy has been around since mankind was created.
Yes, IN the future, unless you are a Preterist. Are you?
 

shturt678s

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StanJ said:
Let's try not to use equivocal language Jack. Rev 7:14 talks about the GREAT Tribulation, not tribulations. We all go through trials and tribulations.
The GREAT Apostasy is yet to happen. Apostasy has been around since mankind was created.
Yes, IN the future, unless you are a Preterist. Are you?
Thank you for your response again!

Just in case you forgot...no sarcasm...."Preterism" views the majority of prophecy has already been fulfilled in 70 A.D.. I view prophecy as unfolding now thus I'm a "Nowist" (not even close to being a partial "Preterist."

Rev.7:14, "out of the tribulation, the great one" Definitely not the English way of viewing, "the GREAT Tribulation" referring to some terrible time to come. All the tribulations are here combined with equivocalating or not equivocalating. (Acts14:22 sort of thing)

Old Amill. Nowist Jack
 

StanJ

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shturt678s said:
Thank you for your response again!

Just in case you forgot...no sarcasm...."Preterism" views the majority of prophecy has already been fulfilled in 70 A.D.. I view prophecy as unfolding now thus I'm a "Nowist" (not even close to being a partial "Preterist."

Rev.7:14, "out of the tribulation, the great one" Definitely not the English way of viewing, "the GREAT Tribulation" referring to some terrible time to come. All the tribulations are here combined with equivocalating or not equivocalating. (Acts14:22 sort of thing)

Old Amill. Nowist Jack
Sorry...ya lost me. Plain English please,
 

Tex

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He's saying there isn't a "great tribulation", but that there are always tribulations that the Church will experience, as outlined in Revelation. The "great tribulation" is the tribulations that happen to the Church over the course of it's whole existence, constantly.

I think...
 

StanJ

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Tex said:
He's saying there isn't a "great tribulation", but that there are always tribulations that the Church will experience, as outlined in Revelation. The "great tribulation" is the tribulations that happen to the Church over the course of it's whole existence, constantly.

I think...
Thanks...if that IS the case then I'll have to press the WRONG buzzer!
 

shturt678s

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StanJ said:
Sorry...ya lost me. Plain English please,
Thank you for your response again!

Us Amills. strongly feel we're toward the end of Rev.7:14...the antithesis of the Jesuit's Alcasar's view of Preterism.

Old 'Nowist' Jack,

Thank you again, especially for caring!
 

Enquirer

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Once saved always saved ... Joseph Prince .

I have no problem with "grace" but the absolutely ridiculous notion that he puts forth is as follows,

But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which
you were committed,You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. (Rom 6:17 & 18 ESV).

Here he states the following that ... once you were a slave of sin and no matter how many good works you did you could NEVER be saved
which is 100% true.
But then he falls out of the bus by saying the following ... Now that you are a slave of righteousness no matter how many bad works you
do you CANNOT be "unsaved".
Which is total rubbish.

Countless times, the apostles tell you that if you,

"remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins" Jam 5:20

"Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated
stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,a putting them in chains of darknessb to be held for judgment;

They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done ... They have left the straight way and wandered off ... If they have escaped the
corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end
than they were at the beginning.It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to
turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”g and, “A sow that is
washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” (2 Pet 2:2 to 22 ESV)

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers
nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9 & 10 ESV)

Why bother telling them not to be deceived if they could be, because if they were deceived they would reap the results of not inheriting the kingdom of God.

Jesus Himself said,

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many
will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (Matt 7:21 - 23 ESV)

Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not
believe. (Jude 1:7 ESV)

There are plenty of other Scriptures that say the same thing.

I must stress however, that if a Christian is struggling with a certain sin and keeps on praying and means it, then God will give them grace and
ultimately victory.
 

Tex

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Jun 29, 2014
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@Enquierer

Agreed. Grace allows for a pre-determination of the elect, but OSAS takes it one step farther and claims that the faith, once implanted, is irresistable. You outline the problem well and show biblically that the call of God is resistable. If we look at our own life, most will often notice times where they overflow in the Spirit and other times where it's a real struggle to care at all about their neighbor. This does not need to be a "oh, you were never faithful" doctrine, but that in the course of time, we fall in and out of love with our Bridegroom.
 

shturt678s

New Member
Apr 16, 2014
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Enquirer said:
Once saved always saved ... Joseph Prince .

I have no problem with "grace" but the absolutely ridiculous notion that he puts forth is as follows,

But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which
you were committed,You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. (Rom 6:17 & 18 ESV).

Here he states the following that ... once you were a slave of sin and no matter how many good works you did you could NEVER be saved
which is 100% true.
But then he falls out of the bus by saying the following ... Now that you are a slave of righteousness no matter how many bad works you
do you CANNOT be "unsaved".
Which is total rubbish.

Countless times, the apostles tell you that if you,

"remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins" Jam 5:20

"Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated
stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,a putting them in chains of darknessb to be held for judgment;

They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done ... They have left the straight way and wandered off ... If they have escaped the
corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end
than they were at the beginning.It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to
turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”g and, “A sow that is
washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” (2 Pet 2:2 to 22 ESV)

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers
nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9 & 10 ESV)

Why bother telling them not to be deceived if they could be, because if they were deceived they would reap the results of not inheriting the kingdom of God.

Jesus Himself said,

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many
will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (Matt 7:21 - 23 ESV)

Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not
believe. (Jude 1:7 ESV)

There are plenty of other Scriptures that say the same thing.

I must stress however, that if a Christian is struggling with a certain sin and keeps on praying and means it, then God will give them grace and
ultimately victory.
AMEN!!!

Old Jack
 

Theodore A. Jones

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Aug 15, 2011
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The worst doctrine is substitutionary atonement. The sin of any man's murder cannot ever have nor become a direct benefit for anyone.
 

Tex

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Theodore A. Jones said:
The worst doctrine is substitutionary atonement. The sin of any man's murder cannot ever have nor become a direct benefit for anyone.
What do you propose instead?
 

IanLC

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Mar 22, 2011
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"Don't Judge me!", "I don't need to live holy I'm always saved", "there is no need for the Holy Ghost", "who needs the bible", "Jesus turned water into wine", and among many other foolish sayings.
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
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UHCAIan said:
"Don't Judge me!", "I don't need to live holy I'm always saved", "there is no need for the Holy Ghost", "who needs the bible", "Jesus turned water into wine", and among many other foolish sayings.
Aside from Jesus DID turn water into wine, I'm not really getting this post?
 

IanLC

Active Member
Encounter Team
Mar 22, 2011
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StanJ said:
Aside from Jesus DID turn water into wine, I'm not really getting this post?
Yes Jesus turned water into wine but many people use that scripture as an excuse to engage in drunkenness and alcoholism.
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
UHCAIan said:
Yes Jesus turned water into wine but many people use that scripture as an excuse to engage in drunkenness and alcoholism.
Well then they would be wrong. It is not able to be used as an excuse. Eph 5:18