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JohnPaul

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Which actually invalidates the papacy. The entire claim of the papacy is that it is supernatural, leading from the apostle Peter to Communist Pope Francis. But when popes are rascals, it means that the papacy itself is totally invalid. Which means that you should not be supporting nonsense but coming out of the Catholic Church.

What Francis did to undermine his own archbishop was outrageous and preposterous. Nancy Pelosi had no business going to the Vatican to validate her evil self. And the Pope had no business allowing her to partake of the Eucharist.
My thoughts exactly Enoch111, Francis is corrupt and he says he’s against abortion yet gives communion to one of the most evil politicians who is pro LGTBQ+ and murdering babies, what a hypocrite Francis is, Satan is his Master.
 
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theefaith

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Which actually invalidates the papacy. The entire claim of the papacy is that it is supernatural, leading from the apostle Peter to Communist Pope Francis. But when popes are rascals, it means that the papacy itself is totally invalid. Which means that you should not be supporting nonsense but coming out of the Catholic Church.

What Francis did to undermine his own archbishop was outrageous and preposterous. Nancy Pelosi had no business going to the Vatican to validate her evil self. And the Pope had no business allowing her to partake of the Eucharist.

no they are not impeccable!

Jesus Christ established the papacy in His church with authority of hierarchical jurisdiction!
 

RedFan

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Jesus Christ established the papacy in His church with authority of hierarchical jurisdiction!

Let me just stop you for a minute here.

Granting Peter’s investiture by Jesus with a leadership role in the Church, and even granting his status as the First Bishop of Rome, it is not a necessary corollary that the Pope is the successor of Peter as leader not only of the Roman See, but of the entire Church. We need to indulge some assumptions in order to get there. As best I can tell, when it comes to Peter’s passing on the Keys to the Kingdom to a single successor in Rome, and that successor to the next, and so on in an unbroken line of Roman bishops right down to Francis, the required assumptions are as follows:

1. Jesus intended Peter’s preeminent authority to be passed on after Peter’s death, i.e., it was intended as an assignable authority. (No recorded words of Jesus, apocryphal or not, express such an intention.)

2. The means by which Peter’s authority got assigned – to one man only – was by Peter’s own selection of a successor, and not by any wider apostolic vote (such as the election of Matthias as recounted in Acts 1:24-26).

3. Like Paul before him, Peter went to Rome to end his days in a church he did not found. But because of his preeminence, Peter – not Paul – became Rome’s bishop (unlike in Jerusalem, where James was leader of the church while Peter was active there).

4. Of all the bishops that Peter may have appointed in his travels (e.g., Antioch), the one man that he assigned his “keys” to was the bishop he appointed in Rome, generally assumed to be Linus, per John Chrysostum’s Homily 10 on Second Timothy (“This Linus, some say, was second Bishop of the Church of Rome after Peter”), but possibly Clement, per the Epistle of Clement to James).

5. Peter’s authority not only could be assigned to another, but the assignee himself could further assign that authority to a person of his choosing, i.e., the “keys” are assignable by any subsequent recipient of those keys.

6. Eventually – likely to fill a gap when, inevitably, no one had been appointed as a successor before the incumbent died – the Bishop of Rome was installed not by his immediate predecessor but by acclamation of the Christian community in Rome, or by consensus or vote of clergy or of other bishops (in Italy, not worldwide, for most of its early history) – all with the same validity as if appointed by his immediate predecessor.

It could be that each of these assumptions is supportable -- but they would have to be supported outside of Scripture, for Scripture doesn't tell us. I'm certainly not a sola Srciptura guy, so I'd be fine with any other support for these assumptions that you can adduce here. But at least let's be honest: these are the assumptions one must make in order to hold that "Jesus Christ established the papacy."
 

EloyCraft

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Let me just stop you for a minute here.

Granting Peter’s investiture by Jesus with a leadership role in the Church, and even granting his status as the First Bishop of Rome, it is not a necessary corollary that the Pope is the successor of Peter as leader not only of the Roman See, but of the entire Church. We need to indulge some assumptions in order to get there. As best I can tell, when it comes to Peter’s passing on the Keys to the Kingdom to a single successor in Rome, and that successor to the next, and so on in an unbroken line of Roman bishops right down to Francis, the required assumptions are as follows:

1. Jesus intended Peter’s preeminent authority to be passed on after Peter’s death, i.e., it was intended as an assignable authority. (No recorded words of Jesus, apocryphal or not, express such an intention.)

2. The means by which Peter’s authority got assigned – to one man only – was by Peter’s own selection of a successor, and not by any wider apostolic vote (such as the election of Matthias as recounted in Acts 1:24-26).

3. Like Paul before him, Peter went to Rome to end his days in a church he did not found. But because of his preeminence, Peter – not Paul – became Rome’s bishop (unlike in Jerusalem, where James was leader of the church while Peter was active there).

4. Of all the bishops that Peter may have appointed in his travels (e.g., Antioch), the one man that he assigned his “keys” to was the bishop he appointed in Rome, generally assumed to be Linus, per John Chrysostum’s Homily 10 on Second Timothy (“This Linus, some say, was second Bishop of the Church of Rome after Peter”), but possibly Clement, per the Epistle of Clement to James).

5. Peter’s authority not only could be assigned to another, but the assignee himself could further assign that authority to a person of his choosing, i.e., the “keys” are assignable by any subsequent recipient of those keys.

6. Eventually – likely to fill a gap when, inevitably, no one had been appointed as a successor before the incumbent died – the Bishop of Rome was installed not by his immediate predecessor but by acclamation of the Christian community in Rome, or by consensus or vote of clergy or of other bishops (in Italy, not worldwide, for most of its early history) – all with the same validity as if appointed by his immediate predecessor.

It could be that each of these assumptions is supportable -- but they would have to be supported outside of Scripture, for Scripture doesn't tell us. I'm certainly not a sola Srciptura guy, so I'd be fine with any other support for these assumptions that you can adduce here. But at least let's be honest: these are the assumptions one must make in order to hold that "Jesus Christ established the papacy."
Well assuming or not, how does it matter?
Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to do what they judged to be good to do.

Because as Paul taught, "for me nothing is forbidden but not all does good."
.
 
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theefaith

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How can we as Christian’s bear fruit that has merit in God’s eyes
Reference Jn 15:4
 

theefaith

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Let me just stop you for a minute here.

Granting Peter’s investiture by Jesus with a leadership role in the Church, and even granting his status as the First Bishop of Rome, it is not a necessary corollary that the Pope is the successor of Peter as leader not only of the Roman See, but of the entire Church. We need to indulge some assumptions in order to get there. As best I can tell, when it comes to Peter’s passing on the Keys to the Kingdom to a single successor in Rome, and that successor to the next, and so on in an unbroken line of Roman bishops right down to Francis, the required assumptions are as follows:

1. Jesus intended Peter’s preeminent authority to be passed on after Peter’s death, i.e., it was intended as an assignable authority. (No recorded words of Jesus, apocryphal or not, express such an intention.)

2. The means by which Peter’s authority got assigned – to one man only – was by Peter’s own selection of a successor, and not by any wider apostolic vote (such as the election of Matthias as recounted in Acts 1:24-26).

3. Like Paul before him, Peter went to Rome to end his days in a church he did not found. But because of his preeminence, Peter – not Paul – became Rome’s bishop (unlike in Jerusalem, where James was leader of the church while Peter was active there).

4. Of all the bishops that Peter may have appointed in his travels (e.g., Antioch), the one man that he assigned his “keys” to was the bishop he appointed in Rome, generally assumed to be Linus, per John Chrysostum’s Homily 10 on Second Timothy (“This Linus, some say, was second Bishop of the Church of Rome after Peter”), but possibly Clement, per the Epistle of Clement to James).

5. Peter’s authority not only could be assigned to another, but the assignee himself could further assign that authority to a person of his choosing, i.e., the “keys” are assignable by any subsequent recipient of those keys.

6. Eventually – likely to fill a gap when, inevitably, no one had been appointed as a successor before the incumbent died – the Bishop of Rome was installed not by his immediate predecessor but by acclamation of the Christian community in Rome, or by consensus or vote of clergy or of other bishops (in Italy, not worldwide, for most of its early history) – all with the same validity as if appointed by his immediate predecessor.

It could be that each of these assumptions is supportable -- but they would have to be supported outside of Scripture, for Scripture doesn't tell us. I'm certainly not a sola Srciptura guy, so I'd be fine with any other support for these assumptions that you can adduce here. But at least let's be honest: these are the assumptions one must make in order to hold that "Jesus Christ established the papacy."

there is only one universal church Jn 10:16
Matt 28:19-20 until his return at the end of time
Acts 1:8 unto the ends of the earth
Acts 1:15-26 Mathias is Judas successor so Peter and the rest of the apostles have successors
Even Moses in Matt 23:1 has successors


Prophecy of the new covenant and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5

Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings (Roman Caesars) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
 

theefaith

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Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1


Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42
1 Tim 3:15

Fundamentalism drives a wedge between Christ and his church, separates Christ from His kingdom, and the authority of Christ from the new covenant!

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema

Extends to the truth and the church

Cos Christ is the truth and His church teaches the truth without error! Jn 14:6 matt 28:19 matt 18:17 1 Tim 3:15 Jn 29:21-23 Jn 16:13

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
 

Ronald Nolette

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Well assuming or not, how does it matter?
Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to do what they judged to be good to do.

Because as Paul taught, "for me nothing is forbidden but not all does good."
.

No Jesus did not give the apostles that authority. what He did command them was this:

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
 

Taken

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I have told these thin skinned Catholics that I am not anti-Catholic- but anti catholicism but they refuse to accept that and force their own opinion on what I say.

It’s a ploy to deflect, to avoid responding to the topic, to instead tempt you to defend yourself of their claim...gaslighting.

And BTW, (because “they” are taught and accept, the Catholic Church is the only true Church of Christ, and the only true members of Christ’s Church are Catholics’) when they call people, “anti-Catholic”, what they mean is; “anti-Christ”.

Cunning!
 

EloyCraft

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No Jesus did not give the apostles that authority. what He did command them was this:

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Those who Hear you hear me. Jesus said to the Apostles.
 

theefaith

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Those who Hear you hear me. Jesus said to the Apostles.
Lk 10:16

matt 28:19 establishes his authority in the apostles the saints who have the kingdom

Prophecy of the new covenant and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5

Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings (Roman Caesars) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.


Christ the king!

The king of kings!

Christ is King of Glory!

Kingdom established by God!
Isa 2:2
Dan 2: 44
Micah 4:1

One, holy, catholic, (universal) and apostolic! And all nations and all people shall flow into it! All must submit and obey the king of glory!

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
 
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EloyCraft

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Lk 10:16

matt 28:19 establishes his authority in the apostles the saints who have the kingdom

Prophecy of the new covenant and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5

Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings (Roman Caesars) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.


Christ the king!

The king of kings!

Christ is King of Glory!

Kingdom established by God!
Isa 2:2
Dan 2: 44
Micah 4:1

One, holy, catholic, (universal) and apostolic! And all nations and all people shall flow into it! All must submit and obey the king of glory!

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Good stuff!
 

Illuminator

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Which actually invalidates the papacy. The entire claim of the papacy is that it is supernatural, leading from the apostle Peter to Communist Pope Francis. But when popes are rascals, it means that the papacy itself is totally invalid. Which means that you should not be supporting nonsense but coming out of the Catholic Church.

What Francis did to undermine his own archbishop was outrageous and preposterous. Nancy Pelosi had no business going to the Vatican to validate her evil self. And the Pope had no business allowing her to partake of the Eucharist.
PELOSI’S COMMUNION STUNT AT THE VATICAN
Catholic League president Bill Donohue comments on Rep. Nancy Pelosi receiving Communion at the Vatican:

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who rejects the Catholic Church’s teachings on abortion, marriage and sexuality, received Holy Communion on June 29 at a papal Mass in St. Peter’s Basilica. The pope was in attendance, but did not give out Communion.

Pelosi’s stunt was done to undercut her bishop, San Francisco Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone: he has told her not to present herself for Communion, citing her lust for abortion rights.

Some will blame the Vatican for what happened; others will blame Pelosi; still others will blame Cordileone. There is only one person to blame—Pelosi.

Archbishop Cordileone invoked canon law to deny Pelosi Communion, so there is no issue there: He is in total compliance with Catholic teachings. But given the autonomy that bishops have, those who oversee other dioceses are not bound by what Cordileone decreed.

Pelosi received Communion from one of the many priests who were distributing it; he obviously did not know anymore about her than he does the man on the moon. And unlike Cordileone, he never reached out to her, seeking to counsel her on this subject. So the two are not comparable.

The priest did what was expected of him—he gave Communion to everyone waiting on line to receive it. For all we know, non-Catholics may have received Communion at the same Mass. That doesn’t excuse those who willfully exploited the sacrament.

So where does this leave us?

Pelosi waiting in line to receive Communion is akin to a murderer waiting in line to pay his respects to his victim at a Catholic wake. The analogy is poignant in more ways than one.

Contact Pelosi’s chief of staff: [email protected]

It's the FACTS that destroys Enoch's hateful rant.
" The entire claim of the papacy is that it is supernatural, leading from the apostle Peter to Communist Pope Francis."
Pope Francis is not a communist. The insult is stupid and absurd.
But when popes are rascals, it means that the papacy itself is totally invalid.
But when the President of the U.S. is an immoral rascal, it means the office of president is totally invalid, which is stupid and absurd.
Which means that you should not be supporting nonsense but coming out of the Catholic Church.
Which means that you should not be supporting nonsense coming out of cheap media tabloids.
 
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Enoch111

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Ronald Nolette

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Those who Hear you hear me. Jesus said to the Apostles.

That is because they taught what Jesus taught them. Not what seemed good to them.

God condemned that in Israel in the time of the judges (everyone did what was right in their eye's) and He condemns it today.
 

theefaith

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That is because they taught what Jesus taught them. Not what seemed good to them.

God condemned that in Israel in the time of the judges (everyone did what was right in their eye's) and He condemns it today.

Really?

the apostles “are” the light of the world!

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

the church “is” the pillar of truth!

1 Tim 3:15

Acts 15:25
It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

Acts 15:28
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
 
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