Nation born in a day in 1948?

[Robert Gwin]

False. Israel (whether God brought them back there or not) has to be there to be able to be invaded, eventually repent, etc. If God had brought them back, their enemies would be long gone and wiped out now. They really would be in peace, have repented, etc etc. God is not done with Israel, and they have a glorious future. He is no more done with them than He is with Christians.

Time will tell Dad.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Says who? They are getting on planes and travelling, yes. Why blame God? When He brings the remnant back, their enemies will be finished. History. Gone. Wiped out. They will also be in real peace..etc. That is not today, period.

That is something that God has done more than once. You cannot place that in the end times or 1948. Most commentaries I looked at place that section as history.

Yes the nation will have to exist to attack it. That does not mean God brought them there.

No they will not be gone when god started the rfeturn from the diaspora as that verse I cited clearly shows. It is a process and a judgment by God against the nation before He enters them into teh covenant.

God has not returnedIsrael from multiple nations ever before. the last diaspora and return was from Babylon. Others may have come from other lands if they were able to travel to lands under Babylonian control, but thd diaspora of 70-135 AD is the only time Jerusalem was destroyed ands the peoples scattered throughout multiple nations intentionally.

Who do you credit. the world was basically oppossewd to Israel being a nation. As soon as it was it was attacked by 5 Arab armies from all directions. Israel had no warplanes, i tank, 4 cannons and WW 1 carbines to fend off invading armies that outnembered the Jews by 20-1. who do you give credit for that?

 

[post]

Nor does God call Gentiles or Jews who are not in Christ, by the name of "Israel".

That's ridiculous.
If God has utterly forsaken His people whom He swore He would never utterly forsake, how then can you trust Him to save yourself?
Your position is that He is not faithful, hat God cannot be trusted in His promises.

Deuteronomy 32:21
They have provoked Me to jealousy by [what] is not God; They have moved Me to anger by their foolish idols. But I will provoke them to jealousy by [those who are] not a nation; I will move them to anger by a foolish nation.

He makes them jealous by saving me and you, who are Gentiles - so how can they be made jealous if they don't exist?

 

[dad]

I'm saying that It's not a result of God bringing them back.

OK, that is a clear vote.

Nor does God call Gentiles or Jews who are not in Christ, by the name of "Israel". They may call themselves "Israel" but if they are not found in Christ through faith in Christ, then Jews who call themselves "Israel" are no more Israel than Japanese people who do not believe in Jesus, calling themselves "Israel".

Yet Paul says
Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

There are many places in the Old Testament where God names Israel as well, such as
Joel 3:2
I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

That seems to be talking of Megiddo and the last days, so it is not history.

1948's so-called "Israel" and 1967's reunification of Jerusalem is the realized goal of a people who are not Israel in God's eyes. It's not the work of God - either by God's preordained purpose, or by accident.
God still calls it Israel, even though that land is in unbelief and sin and requires judgment.

Ezekiel 38:8
After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

God has fulfilled His covenant and His promises to the house of Israel and the house of Judah, fulfilling them in the day that Jesus shed His blood:

As far as saving any that believe in Jesus, sure. But not yet the many specific promises to them about the land.

"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah."

That is from Jer 31, where there are promises of how He will bring them back to the land.

So if there is a regathering into the land that has been promised by God, then it will be God's work and it has not happened yet.

Right.

In Ezekiel they are said to live in peace and safety in unwalled villages after God has brought true Israel (the only Israel) back into the land. One can hardly say the Jews of Israel are able to live in unwalled villages today. .

Yet God still calls it Israel.

 

[dad]

@dad,

You are right, God told Abraham in Genesis 15:16 that his descendants will return to the land of Canaan in their own strength. Here is the passage which contains three separate prophecies,

1. Concerning the nation of Israel becoming slaves in Egypt and that God will bring them out with great possessions and that he will also judge that nation for their deeds against the nation of Israel while they lived in Israel.

2. Concerning Abraham that he would live out his days in peace and be buried at a good age.

3. That some of Abraham's descendants will return to the Land of Canaan in the fourth age of their existence in their own strength seeking God, but God will not give them any assistance like He said he would when He brought out of Egypt. We are also told in this one verse prophecy that the iniquities of the Amorite people would not be compete when they return.

Genesis 15:12-16: - 12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: "Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation/age they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."​

From my research, I ascertained that Isaac was born at the beginning of the year 2052 BC and that some of Abraham's descendants returned in the year 1948 AD, 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac, Abraham's first descendant that fulfilled God's promises to Abraham.

Shalom.

PS: - In the prophecies in Ezekiel where God has said that He will Gather Israel to Himself, His word is that he will plant them in the fertile field of "Israel," i.e. Christ, and teach them on, i.e. about, the mountain, i.e. religion, of "Israel," i.e. Christ, where they are living in the valleys and ravines beside the rivers where they have been scattered through the whole earth. We really need to be careful that we do not confuse what the translators have wrtten in their translations which do not reflect the same contextual messages as contain in the Hebrew texts in which they were contained.

Not sure what relevance the return of some Jews 4000 years after Abraham or whatever has? That is not four generations. You seem to try to spiritualize the land of Israel. Yes they will be in Christ when they are returned to the land, but that does not mean there is no land.

 

[Zao is life]

That's ridiculous.
If God has utterly forsaken His people whom He swore He would never utterly forsake, how then can you trust Him to save yourself?
Your position is that He is not faithful, hat God cannot be trusted in His promises.

Deuteronomy 32:21
They have provoked Me to jealousy by [what] is not God; They have moved Me to anger by their foolish idols. But I will provoke them to jealousy by [those who are] not a nation; I will move them to anger by a foolish nation.

He makes them jealous by saving me and you, who are Gentiles - so how can they be made jealous if they don't exist?

He never forsook them. He died for them and rose again from the dead for them. More than that He cannot do - but they forsake Him through their rejection of Christ.

 

[Zao is life]

OK, that is a clear vote.

Yet Paul says
Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

There are many places in the Old Testament where God names Israel as well, such as
Joel 3:2
I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

That seems to be talking of Megiddo and the last days, so it is not history.

1948's so-called "Israel" and 1967's reunification of Jerusalem is the realized goal of a people who are not Israel in God's eyes. It's not the work of God - either by God's preordained purpose, or by accident.
God still calls it Israel, even though that land is in unbelief and sin and requires judgment.

Ezekiel 38:8
After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.


As far as saving any that believe in Jesus, sure. But not yet the many specific promises to them about the land.



That is from Jer 31, where there are promises of how He will bring them back to the land.

Right.


Yet God still calls it Israel.

All Israel is in Christ. There is no Israel outside of Christ. Also, all Israel = the house of Israel (10 Northern tribes) + the house of Judah ("the Jews). Gentiles who believe in Christ are grafted into Israel - into the house of Israel.

Even so, when the Revelation says, "And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger of His wrath." (Revelation 16:19),

then it's not telling us that ancient Babylon is to be destroyed (because it was destroyed already) - it's calling the cities of the nations Babylon. Babylon was God's instrument in His punishment of the kingdom of Judah (the Southern kingdom). Afterward He destroyed Babylon. At the time, Babylon was "the world". The nations have been God's instrument to punish Israel for its sins - but since Christ died and rose again, Israel = those who are in Christ. God does not call the others "Israel".

But when Joseph saw that Judah had repented of what he and his brothers (at Judah's instigation) had done to Joseph, he finally could contain himself no longer, and revealed to them who he was. Then he forgave them. So if there is a "national repentance" on the part of the genetic seed of Jacob, it will only come when Christ is revealed for who He is. Then, and then only will they recognize Him - but it will be too late for them to be part of the resurrection of those who are Christ's at His coming. Christ's people Israel (the Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ at His coming) will sit as judges, ruling the 12 tribes of Israel.

 

[post]

He never forsook them. He died for them and rose again from the dead for them. More than that He cannot do - but they forsake Him through their rejection of Christ.

That doesn't make them cease to exist.

 

[dad]

Time will tell Dad.

Not really. We can tell that they still have enemies now. They are soon prophesied to be invaded. They have not repented yet. So we can tell that God has not returned them yet.

 

[dad]

All Israel is in Christ. There is no Israel outside of Christ. Also, all Israel = the house of Israel (10 Northern tribes) + the house of Judah ("the Jews). Gentiles who believe in Christ are grafted into Israel - into the house of Israel.

False. Most of Israel is anything but in Christ now. All believers are grafted into salvation and the life of Jesus. That does not mean there was no Israel as a people also and that there will not again be fellow believers who are Israel, that have promises to them about Jerusalem and that area totally fulfilled. That does not mean we are a different tree or whatever.

Even so, when the Revelation says, "And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger of His wrath." (Revelation 16:19),

then it's not telling us that ancient Babylon is to be destroyed (because it was destroyed already)

It is pointing out that the same spirit is in the modern nations. The confederacy that will exist at that time is called (and rightly so) Babylon. It was in Babylon where the rebellion started. The final manifestation of this same rebellion of course is called Babylon. The bible points out that the name is a mystery. 'Mystery Babylon'. That tells us we are not just talking about ancient Babylon! When it talks about the nations falling that also tells us what is being talked about is much more than one ancient city.

- it's calling the cities of the nations Babylon. Babylon was God's instrument in His punishment of the kingdom of Judah (the Southern kingdom).

Many say that the great city is probably Jerusalem. Others broaden the meaning to include most modern cities.

But when Joseph saw that Judah had repented of what he and his brothers (at Judah's instigation) had done to Joseph, he finally could contain himself no longer, and revealed to them who he was. Then he forgave them. So if there is a "national repentance" on the part of the genetic seed of Jacob, it will only come when Christ is revealed for who He is

Of course. Jesus said you will not see me again till you say Blessed is the Name of the Lord. Zech points out they repent when they see Him.

. Then, and then only will they recognize Him - but it will be too late for them to be part of the resurrection of those who are Christ's at His coming.

Great, so what? Eternal life is wonderful if if we miss the first train! Besides to have the promises fulfilled they need to be here on earth. God knew.

 

[Jay Ross]

Not sure what relevance the return of some Jews 4000 years after Abraham or whatever has? That is not four generations. You seem to try to spiritualize the land of Israel. Yes they will be in Christ when they are returned to the land, but that does not mean there is no land.

Many commentaries combine Genesis 15:14 and 15:16 claiming that both of these verse are speaking of the same time. I have no problem if you believe that, but first before you present your understanding please make sure that you are on a solid base.

Judah has returned, to the Land of Canaan, in 1948 in their own strength, with their idols that they are still worshipping.

The Ezekiel prophecies concerning God's gathering of Abraham's descendants to Himself, He will plant them in a "fertile field" tended by Christ, and He will teach them "on" the religion that Jesus is the Son of God, that comes down from Heaven after the visitation of their iniquities upon them for two ages, and they will see God judging the Nations at Armageddon, in our near future, and He will sprinkle them with water to make them clean so that they can all be Priests in His everlasting Kingdom which is also established by God at the same time as He gathers Israel to Himself.

The 1948 return of Israel to the Land of Canaan, God did foretell to Abraham, in Genesis 15:16. God has used and will use the budding of the Fig tree as a sign post as to when the end of this present Age will occur, which Christ also referenced in the Parable of the Fig Tree budding, to tell us when the Millennium Age would begin.

Now you have made reference to Jack Hibbs' opinion on this subject when you wrote this in you OP: -

Looking at prophesies of the time God restores a repentant Israel to the land, I do not see a fit for 1948. Anyone think they can make a case for the sort of Jack Hibbs opinion that seems to say the opposite?

Before anyone can comment on what he has said concerning the gathering of the Nation of Israel to God, Himself, references to the source documents or video when he presents his opinion would help us hone in on the subject matter that you have referred to in your OP.

Shalom.

 

[dad]

No they will not be gone when god started the rfeturn from the diaspora as that verse I cited clearly shows.

That was not about some diaspora, it is about God destroying all enemies when He returns them, and then they dwell safely. No connection to 1948. There is no 'start' the return. You made that up.

It is a process and a judgment by God against the nation before He enters them into teh covenant.

God has not returnedIsrael from multiple nations ever before. the last diaspora and return was from Babylon. Others may have come from other lands if they were able to travel to lands under Babylonian control, but thd diaspora of 70-135 AD is the only time Jerusalem was destroyed ands the peoples scattered throughout multiple nations intentionally.

So what? Of course they got scattered, why else would He return them one day after they repent? Why do you claim He returned them before He appears and they repent?

Who do you credit. the world was basically oppossewd to Israel being a nation. As soon as it was it was attacked by 5 Arab armies from all directions. Israel had no warplanes, i tank, 4 cannons and WW 1 carbines to fend off invading armies that outnembered the Jews by 20-1. who do you give credit for that?

They were at war and have been ever since. That is not God destroying their enemies and them actually living in peace under His rule!

 

[dad]

Many commentaries combine Genesis 15:14 and 15:16 claiming that both of these verse are speaking of the same time. I have no problem if you believe that, but first before you present your understanding please make sure that you are on a solid base.

Not only did I not claim that, I don't know what you are talking about or how it relates to anything here.

Judah has returned, to the Land of Canaan, in 1948 in their own strength, with their idols that they are still worshipping.

Sounds about right.

The Ezekiel prophecies concerning God's gathering of Abraham's descendants to Himself, He will plant them in a "fertile field" tended by Christ, and He will teach them "on" the religion that Jesus is the Son of God, that comes down from Heaven after the visitation of their iniquities upon them for two ages, and they will see God judging the Nations at Armageddon, in our near future, and He will sprinkle them with water to make them clean so that they can all be Priests in His everlasting Kingdom which is also established by God at the same time as He gathers Israel to Himself.

The 1948 return of Israel to the Land of Canaan, God did foretell to Abraham, in Genesis 15:16

Ah, I see you have a claim.

Looking at a commentary I see this..

"Verse Genesis 15:16. In the fourth generation — In former times most people counted by generations, to each of which was assigned a term of years amounting to 20, 25, 30, 33, 100, 108, or 110; for the generation was of various lengths among various people, at different times. It is probable that the fourth generation here means the same as the four hundred years in the preceding verse. Some think it refers to the time when Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the son of Amram, the son of Kohath, came out of Egypt, and divided the land of Canaan to Israel, Joshua 14:1. Others think the fourth generation of the Amorites is intended, because it is immediately added, The iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full; but in the fourth generation they should be expelled, and the descendants of Abram established in their place. From these words we learn that there is a certain pitch of iniquity to which nations may arrive before they are destroyed, and beyond which Divine justice does not permit them to pass.
. God has used and will use the budding of the Fig tree as a sign post as to when the end of this present Age will occur, which Christ also referenced in the Parable of the Fig Tree budding, to tell us when the Millennium Age would begin."

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/acc/genesis-15.html#verse-16
Nothing in there about this having to be talking about 1948!

Now you have made reference to Jack Hibbs' opinion on this subject when you wrote this in you OP: -

Before anyone can comment on what he has said concerning the gathering of the Nation of Israel to God, Himself, references to the source documents or video when he presents his opinion would help us hone in on the subject matter that you have referred to in your OP.

Shalom.

Fair enough. There are many Christians teaching the same thing, so we can deal with the claim itself. I have listened to sermons by Amir Tsafarti, Jack Hibbs and Jean Merkel lately and I think they all have the same idea on 1948.

 

[Zao is life]

That doesn't make them cease to exist.

It also doesn't make them a part of the elect (which is only found in Christ). It also doesn't make unbelieving Gentiles cease to exist.

 

[Zao is life]

That does not mean we are a different tree or whatever.

It is pointing out that the same spirit is in the modern nations. The confederacy that will exist at that time is called (and rightly so) Babylon. It was in Babylon where the rebellion started. The final manifestation of this same rebellion of course is called Babylon. The bible points out that the name is a mystery. 'Mystery Babylon'. That tells us we are not just talking about ancient Babylon! When it talks about the nations falling that also tells us what is being talked about is much more than one ancient city.
Many say that the great city is probably Jerusalem. Others broaden the meaning to include most modern cities.

Of course. Jesus said you will not see me again till you say Blessed is the Name of the Lord. Zech points out they repent when they see Him.

Great, so what? Eternal life is wonderful if if we miss the first train! Besides to have the promises fulfilled they need to be here on earth. God knew.

I liked the above parts. It's the parts we agree on.

 

[Jay Ross]

Fair enough. There are many Christians teaching the same thing, so we can deal with the claim itself. I have listened to sermons by Amir Tsafarti, Jack Hibbs and Jean Merkel lately and I think they all have the same idea on 1948.

The references to where any of the above people have presented what you are referring to in your OP would be appreciated. I will not troll through hours of sermons trying to find where they may have made a comment about Israel's return to the Land of Canaan. So the ball is in your court.

Shalom

PS: - it seems that your understanding is based on other peoples commentaries and their presented "learned" understandings. Good luck with that.

 

[dad]

The references to where any of the above people have presented what you are referring to in your OP would be appreciated. I will not troll through hours of sermons trying to find where they may have made a comment about Israel's return to the Land of Canaan. So the ball is in your court.

Shalom

PS: - it seems that your understanding is based on other peoples commentaries and their presented "learned" understandings. Good luck with that.

The first video I googled had something in it. Jack says that 'just before' Jesus returns, God gathers Israel... at about 14 mins into the video...

 

[Jay Ross]

The first video I googled had something in it. Jack says that 'just before' Jesus returns, God gathers Israel... at about 14 mins into the video...

Link Please?????????

 

[dad]

Link Please?????????

 

[post]

It also doesn't make them a part of the elect (which is only found in Christ). It also doesn't make unbelieving Gentiles cease to exist.

which leaves Israel still being Israel