Nation born in a day in 1948?

[post]

which leaves Israel still being Israel

bottom line being,
this statement:

Nor does God call Gentiles or Jews who are not in Christ, by the name of "Israel".

is absolute nonsense & complete rubbish foolishness!

Israel is Israel. if Jacob is not your father, you are not Israel, you are the grafted-in wild olive branch. you are not the natural branch just by virtue of being grafted in. Abraham is not an Israelite. you do not become an Israelite by being a son of Abraham by faith/ Jacob = Israel. the wife of YHWH is not the same as the betrothed bride of Christ in the same way that the Father and the Son are One yet distinct.

 

[Zao is life]

bottom line being,
this statement:



is absolute nonsense & complete rubbish foolishness!

Israel is Israel. if Jacob is not your father, you are not Israel, you are the grafted-in wild olive branch. you are not the natural branch just by virtue of being grafted in. Abraham is not an Israelite. you do not become an Israelite by being a son of Abraham by faith/ Jacob = Israel. the wife of YHWH is not the same as the betrothed bride of Christ in the same way that the Father and the Son are One yet distinct.

That's just invented theology. God said to the wife:

Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah,
32 not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says the LORD;

Galatians 3
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 4
13 For the promise that he should be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Galatians 3
16 And to Abraham and to his Seed the promises were spoken. It does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, "And to your Seed," which is Christ.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

Matthew 8
11 And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven.
12 But the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

John 8
39 They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus answered them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

I realize that many Christians and Messianic Jews have bluffed themselves regarding this, but nothing that John the Baptist, Jesus and His apostles taught shows that God believes you.

 

[dad]

That's just invented theology. God said to the wife:

Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah,
32 not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says the LORD;

Galatians 3
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 4
13 For the promise that he should be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Galatians 3
16 And to Abraham and to his Seed the promises were spoken. It does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, "And to your Seed," which is Christ.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

Matthew 8
11 And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven.
12 But the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

John 8
39 They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus answered them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

I realize that many Christians and Messianic Jews have bluffed themselves regarding this, but nothing that John the Baptist, Jesus and His apostles taught shows that God believes you.

The work of Jesus is to believe. The Jews will do that work one day, and they will indeed be Abraham's children.

 

[Zao is life]

The work of Jesus is to believe. The Jews will do that work one day, and they will indeed be Abraham's children.

The Jews will do that work one day and be Abraham's children according to the new covenant in Christ which is bought by the blood of Christ and based on the Abrahamic covenant of election by grace through faith (the faith of Abraham) (not based on a covenant which was itself based upon obedience to the laws God gave through Moses). Then we can welcome them into the real Kingdom of God and the real Israel, just like we do when any Gentile becomes a believer.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Not really. We can tell that they still have enemies now. They are soon prophesied to be invaded. They have not repented yet. So we can tell that God has not returned them yet.

Again, futuristic. Time will reveal the truth.

 

[post]

That's just invented theology. God said to the wife:

Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah,
32 not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says the LORD;

Galatians 3
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 4
13 For the promise that he should be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Galatians 3
16 And to Abraham and to his Seed the promises were spoken. It does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, "And to your Seed," which is Christ.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

Matthew 8
11 And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven.
12 But the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

John 8
39 They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus answered them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

I realize that many Christians and Messianic Jews have bluffed themselves regarding this, but nothing that John the Baptist, Jesus and His apostles taught shows that God believes you.

The Wife is unclean and divorced.
The Bride is washed and betrothed.
The wife is made jealous by the Betrothed

Romans 11:17-18
And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, [remember that] you do not support the root, but the root [supports] you.

You, a wild branch grafted in, did not magically become a natural branch.

Israel is Israel. The Church is the Church, and encompasses believing Israel, but you do not 'become Israel' and Israel does not 'become annihilated'

 

[Wrangler]

I do not think anything like that. The issue here is whether God already brought the Jewish people back to the land or whether they went there of their own accord and prophesy just acknowledges that.

I hold that 1948 fulfills Biblical prophecy. The issue you seem to have makes no difference as far as I can see. The Bible is filled with God doing things through others. In another thread, a poster delved into who talked to Moses and who destroyed Sodom & Gomora.

Regarding people acting on their own accord, again the Bible talks several times of God 'hardening' the heart of Pharaoh, etc. It means God deprived them of their own good judgment. Do you suppose the elements of prophecy being fulfilled is merely coincidental?

 

[dad]

The Jews will do that work one day and be Abraham's children according to the new covenant in Christ which is bought by the blood of Christ and based on the Abrahamic covenant of election by grace through faith (the faith of Abraham) (not based on a covenant which was itself based upon obedience to the laws God gave through Moses). Then we can welcome them into the real Kingdom of God and the real Israel, just like we do when any Gentile becomes a believer.

No one ever kept the law of Moses (except Jesus). The law never saved anyone. The law showed people they could not save themselves. That was why we need Jesus. Let's not conflate 'covenants'. Salvation comes only through the Savior. He is the Way, the Door. That remnant of Jews who repent in the end will be saved the same way all others have been or will be, by belief in Jesus. Nothing is going to change there. The promises to Israel that He is going to fulfill have to do with other things once they are saved. It is not some new salvation contract or some such. Just as Christians have some promises for us. Like a wonderful wedding feast in heaven, a gathering in the air to be with Him, a wonderful eternal city, etc. Israel has some specific promises as well, such as God bringing them back to that land He gave them, etc.

 

[dad]

Again, futuristic. Time will reveal the truth.

Not sure how that relates to whether 1948 was God bringing them back or not. No time needed to tell that.

 

[dad]

I hold that 1948 fulfills Biblical prophecy. The issue you seem to have makes no difference as far as I can see. The Bible is filled with God doing things through others. In another thread, a poster delved into who talked to Moses and who destroyed Sodom & Gomora.

Regarding people acting on their own accord, again the Bible talks several times of God 'hardening' the heart of Pharaoh, etc. It means God deprived them of their own good judgment. Do you suppose the elements of prophecy being fulfilled is merely coincidental?

Except that they are not being ruled by Christ now,they are not at peace, etc. 1948 in no way could ever fit the bill.

 

[Wrangler]

Except that they are not being ruled by Christ now,they are not at peace, etc. 1948 in no way could ever fit the bill.

Not sure how you come up with the ‘now’ qualifier or that Christ ruling them is a pre-requisite for the prophecy to be fulfilled?

 

[dad]

Not sure how you come up with the ‘now’ qualifier or that Christ ruling them is a pre-requisite for the prophecy to be fulfilled?

It is a trait of what it will be like when He brings them back. Example:
Ezekiel 34:22
Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.
Ezekiel 34:23
And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
Ezekiel 34:24
And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.
Ezekiel 34:25
And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.
Ezekiel 34:27
And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the Lord , when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.
Ezekiel 34:28
And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.

Nothing about this suggests 1948, and in fact there is no possible fit.

 

[Zao is life]

It is a trait of what it will be like when He brings them back. Example:
Ezekiel 34:22
Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.
Ezekiel 34:23
And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
Ezekiel 34:24
And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.
Ezekiel 34:25
And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.
Ezekiel 34:27
And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the Lord , when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.
Ezekiel 34:28
And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.

Nothing about this suggests 1948, and in fact there is no possible fit.

I believe it's fulfilled after the return of Christ, in the millennium. Christ is the one whose work it is. Unlike most Christians, I've always considered Gog and Magog in Ezekiel devising an evil plot in his heart against the people in the land who for a long time had lived in unwalled villages in peace and safety, with the Gog/Magog rebellion written about at the close of Revelation 20 (not at the close of this Age). And unlike most Christians I believe Gentiles who are in Christ are considered Israel and are identified by God and regarded by God as the house of Israel, regardless of our genetic ancestry. In Ezekiel the house of Israel and the house of Judah are joined together into one "stick", one nation again in Christ, just as Paul stated regarding Gentiles and Jews in Christ. Paul also included Gentiles in his Romans 9 quotation of Hosea which in its Old Testament context speaks only about the house of Israel.

Unlike most Christians, I believe that the dry bones living again in Ezekiel refers literally to the resurrection of the dead when Christ returns, and this is followed by the prolonged period of living in peace in unwalled villages, which in turn are the people Gog devises evil against in his heart. If taken chronologically, that's the order in which it is written in the book of Ezekiel, and that's the order it is written in the millennium in the Revelation.

I've always believed there is only one Israel, and since Jesus died and rose again, only those who are in Christ through faith in Christ are in the elect nation known by God as Israel. The moment "national Israel" (so-called) repents of their unbelief, they will be in the elect nation called Israel again, because they will be in Christ. They will be grafted into their own olive tree again says Paul (whereas Gentiles who believe in Christ are grafted in, period - not grafted in again). God does not compromise. Paul says they are beloved for the sake of the (their) fathers - he does not say that those who remain in unbelief are saved and still in God's elect nation for the sake of the fathers.

 

[Wrangler]

It is a trait of what it will be like when He brings them back

What you quote are prophecies but not died to the birth of the nation in one day prophecy. Sorry but I do not connect what you are connecting. I see your reference more to end times or closer to end times than the day birth of a nation.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So what? Of course they got scattered, why else would He return them one day after they repent? Why do you claim He returned them before He appears and they repent?

Because SCripture as I showed you says os!

That was not about some diaspora, it is about God destroying all enemies when He returns them, and then they dwell safely. No connection to 1948. There is no 'start' the return. You made that up.

No Ezekiel 37-39 show so! they are returned ot the land, live in peace and are invaded.

Then i the tribulation after the antichrist rises form the dead He declares all out genocide against Jews and Christians.

 

[dad]

I believe it's fulfilled after the return of Christ, in the millennium. Christ is the one whose work it is. Unlike most Christians, I've always considered Gog and Magog in Ezekiel devising an evil plot in his heart against the people in the land who for a long time had lived in unwalled villages in peace and safety, with the Gog/Magog rebellion written about at the close of Revelation 20 (not at the close of this Age).

How would that affect 1948? As far as the return of believing Israel to the land, I don't think that fits after the 1000 years.

And unlike most Christians I believe Gentiles who are in Christ are considered Israel and are identified by God and regarded by God as the house of Israel, regardless of our genetic ancestry. In Ezekiel the house of Israel and the house of Judah are joined together into one "stick", one nation again in Christ, just as Paul stated regarding Gentiles and Jews in Christ. Paul also included Gentiles in his Romans 9 quotation of Hosea which in its Old Testament context speaks only about the house of Israel.

That verse in Hosea includes others in the land on whom God has compassion.
Hosea 2:23
"I will sow her for Myself in the land. I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion, And I will say to those who were not My people, ‘You are My people!' And they will say, ‘You are my God!'"

Romans simply brings out how that it is not merely the fact that they are born a Jew that saves them. This does not mean that once they do get saved they are no longer children of Abraham by faith as well as blood. That does not mean God will not fulfill His promises to them.

Unlike most Christians, I believe that the dry bones living again in Ezekiel refers literally to the resurrection of the dead when Christ returns, and this is followed by the prolonged period of living in peace in unwalled villages, which in turn are the people Gog devises evil against in his heart. If taken chronologically, that's the order in which it is written in the book of Ezekiel, and that's the order it is written in the millennium in the Revelation.

If that were true, so what? Or, if it were true that the prophesy has application in both times, so what? In the chapter before in Eze we see when He is talking about.

Eze 36:26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

That could not be after the millennium because the world is burned up at that time and we see a new earth.

I've always believed there is only one Israel, and since Jesus died and rose again, only those who are in Christ through faith in Christ are in the elect nation known by God as Israel. The moment "national Israel" (so-called) repents of their unbelief, they will be in the elect nation called Israel again, because they will be in Christ. They will be grafted into their own olive tree again says Paul (whereas Gentiles who believe in Christ are grafted in, period - not grafted in again). God does not compromise. Paul says they are beloved for the sake of the (their) fathers - he does not say that those who remain in unbelief are saved and still in God's elect nation for the sake of the fathers.

Yes they will be gathered and in the same family of Christ and saved. They also will get to live in their promised land etc. Would you want to live there rather than New Jerusalem in Heaven? Not me!

 

[dad]

What you quote are prophecies but not died to the birth of the nation in one day prophecy. Sorry but I do not connect what you are connecting. I see your reference more to end times or closer to end times than the day birth of a nation.

Just after it mentions the nation born in a day we see the details..
12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.

13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.

15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.

That is when He comes. Not 1948! They are not at peace and comforted now. They are not even believers now for the most part!

 

[theefaith]

The new covenant church replaces Israel!

Matt 21:43

Christ replaced David as King! Lk 1:32-33

 

[dad]

So what? Of course they got scattered, why else would He return them one day after they repent? Why do you claim He returned them before He appears and they repent?

Not sure who you are talking to there. Of course they repent before getting saved.

No Ezekiel 37-39 show so! they are returned ot the land, live in peace and are invaded.

That shows they get invaded NOT that God returned them there to be invaded! Eze 38 is talking to the enemies of Israel.

 

[dad]

The new covenant church replaces Israel!


Christ replaced David as King! Lk 1:32-33

So when David is prophesied to rule there, it is Jesus. So? I suspect King David also will be there helping!
Matthew 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
That is correct, it was taken from them, and will be given back to them also one fine day! They will repent and live forever. Having something taken away does not mean forever. It will be given to the remnant of Israel that finally believe.