New Testament Timeline. Destruction of the Temple in 70 AD

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,870
3,281
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
History has Timothy being killed in 97 AD and that he was the Bishop of the Church in Ephesus. History has it that he was stoned to death for preaching against pagan worship. This gives a clue that things started going bad in his later years. If Timothy was still the Bishop in 95 AD was the letter in Revelation written during his watch?
When Was the Book of Revelation Written?
By Wayne Jackson

Traditionally, the book of Revelation has been dated near the end of the first century, around A.D. 96. Some writers, however, have advanced the preterist (from a Latin word meaning “that which is past”) view, contending that the Apocalypse was penned around A.D. 68 or 69, and thus the thrust of the book is supposed to relate to the impending destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70).

A few prominent names have been associated with this position (e.g., Stuart, Schaff, Lightfoot, Foy E. Wallace Jr.), and for a brief time it was popular with certain scholars. James Orr has observed, however, that recent criticism has reverted to the traditional date of near A.D. 96 (1939, 2584). In fact, the evidence for the later date is extremely strong.

In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.

External Evidence
The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.

Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).

Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.

Victorinus
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:

When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).

Jerome
Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,

In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).

To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that “there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.

Internal Evidence
The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.

The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.

The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius’s reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).

Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.

Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).

Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.

The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John’s writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.

Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero’s persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: TEXBOW

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm really not too keen in believing in the 'extreme' late date of the writing of Revelation. It really sticks out like a sore thumb.

Something else to consider...

Many argue that the Book of Revelation is John’s theological presentation of the Mount Olivet discourse, which is present in the other three Gospels, but missing from John’s message. Therefore, they say that the content of Revelation corresponds to the Mount Olivet discourse, which prophesies the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D.

And finally, since the first 3 verses and the first part of verse 4 in Chapter 1 is written in the 3rd person, it is uncertain that John actually wrote the ‘last’ Book. Someone could have made a later copy of a much earlier version written before 70 AD, and then was not necessarily written by John in the 60s of the 1st century at all.

Even with the unlikely reality that Revelation was written after 90 AD, one has to really, really consider there must be words said in it for the 66-70AD event! It was a landmark event that ended the age of old Israel, for good, never to return to it, ever.

As Isaiah 11:11-12 says:
On that day the Lord will extend His hand a second time to recover the remnant of His people from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; He will collect the scattered of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Now the 1st time back to the 'Promised Land' and the recovery of the righteous remnant began in Ezra's time from Babylon to rebuild physical Jerusalem and the physical Temple. It ended right up to the minute of the Day of Pentecost. The 2nd time of the recovery of the righteous remnant is through the root of Jesse, Christ, at and after the Day of Pentecost, into the NEW FINAL promised land not of this earth, of the Kingdom of God, the New Jerusalem, and not with the rebuilding of another physical Jerusalem and not another physical Temple. That would be a rather astonishing and strange idea based on what we know of scripture alone.

The second wave of old Israelite remnant recovery ended by 70 AD that also included the apostles and Paul and those in Christ who fled by 70 AD and of course some died trying to flee. Since that time and into the future, we had NO new old Israelite remnant recovery plan underway. The recovery plan today and into the future will be for all Israel in the spirit of Christ where physical appearance and ancestry mean nothing and is completely irrelevant!

Romans chapter 11:1 and 25-28 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.


Perhaps I am not understanding your point sir. The fact is no one can prove the date of the writing of Revelation. Jehovah's witnesses believe and teach it to be 96 CE, which it either was or is not. We are not inspired and infallible. I gave you the reason why we believe it was composed then.
 

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We must consider this too. (see below)

One thing that lends itself to a later date is the letter to Ephesus. Right before Paul's death in 67 AD in his letter to the Church Ephesians 1:15 Paul seems pleased with the condition of the Church at that time. Mentioning their faith in the Lord and love of the Saints. In Revelation 2:4 Jesus rebukes the Church for leaving their first love. This seems to point to a change from 67 AD to the date of Revelation 2:4 for the Church. We of course do not know how long that change took place but it suggests that it was different than it was in Paul's time. It would also suggest that the change would have taken place after those disciples under Paul's leadership had died.

I never considered that Tex, very discerning catch sir.
 

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
9,323
10,043
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I never considered that Tex, very discerning catch sir.
It is all speculation on the year Paul actually died RG.
He was born Saul of Tarsus c. 5 AD (4-6 AD) Tarsus, Cilicia, Roman Empire (modern-day Turkey)
And died c. 64-67 AD (aged 58–63) Rome, Italia, Roman Empire

So Paul could have written his letter to the Ephesians in his late 50s to early 60s. between the age of 56 - 62 years to be fair. The odds are very remote he would have written this letter to the Ephesians on his death bed.

And if Revelation picked up their 'change in heart' towards Christ say in 66 AD, 4-10 years is more than sufficient time to cause this congregation to 'slide.'

Now if you believe Wikipedia....

Died
c. 64/67 AD
Just saying, trying to be open minded and realistic and to not bind myself up in a corner so to speak.
 
Last edited:

TEXBOW

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2021
623
539
93
65
Cypress
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is all speculation on the year Paul actually died RG.
He was born Saul of Tarsus c. 5 AD (4-6 AD) Tarsus, Cilicia, Roman Empire (modern-day Turkey)
And died c. 64-67 AD (aged 58–63) Rome, Italia, Roman Empire

So Paul could have written his letter to the Ephesians in his late 50s to early 60s. between the age of 56 - 62 years to be fair. The odds are very remote he would have written this letter to the Ephesians on his death bed.

And if Revelation picked up their 'change in heart' towards Christ say in 66 AD, 4-10 years is more than sufficient time to cause this congregation to 'slide.'

Now if you believe Wikipedia....

Died
c. 64/67 AD
Just saying, trying to be open minded and realistic and to not bind myself up in a corner so to speak.

History shows that Timothy was the Bishop of the Church in Ephesus after Pauls's death. We would have to believe that the Church declined and fell out of favor with God during Timothy's watch. Timothy was a very young man at Paul's death. Timothy could have lost the flock or it could have happened after Timothy left his position. It seems logical that the Church fell out of favor with God in the 90 AD to 97 AD time range. Timothy was stoned to death for preaching against the pagan goddess Diana so I have my doubts that he was no longer the Bishop.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: GRACE ambassador

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
9,323
10,043
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
History shows that Timothy was the Bishop of the Church in Ephesus after Pauls's death. We would have to believe that the Church declined and fell out of favor with God during Timothy's watch. Timothy was a very young man at Paul's death. Timothy could have lost the flock or it could have happened after Timothy left his position. It seems logical that the Church fell out of favor with God in the 90 AD to 97 AD time range. Timothy was stoned to death for preaching against the pagan goddess Diana so I have my doubts that he was no longer the Bishop.
Not to beat this subject to death TXB, although even if the Book of Revelation revealed a second, third, fourth, or even 10th relook at Ephesus, under Thomas' leadership, if that was actually true, and for many years into the future, why is it logical that Revelation was then written between 90-97AD? Why not 70-77AD, 80-87AD or even 100-105 AD?

Seriously, we could speculate until the cows come home? There is no actual 1st class proof of when the Book of Revelation was written. And I'm surely not going to rely on a person that said Christ was 50 years old when he went to the Cross. And this person is considered about 70 percent of the ground truth that all MS folks are basing this date range on!

And why isn't it possible that this congregation fell out of favor under Thomas' watch in the late 50s or early 60s? It is highly probable!

And further, how do we know Paul was there, first hand to know that this congregation was in favor with Christ when he wrote his letter to them?

He could have gotten a report 2nd hand or even 3rd hand report without a thorough personal investigation....
Have you read Ephesians lately?

Ephesians 1:1 is a general introductory remark. I do not believe that Paul ever went to Ephesus to note their faithfulness first-hand! He heard about it.

Ephesians 1:13 confirms my assessment. Paul HEARD about their faith....This is not any proof that they actually were solidly in faith at that time frame. The congregation could have been decaying even as this letter was penned by Paul and the ink was still drying. And if someone they adds that Thomas said so, then show the proof; another rabbit hole leading to nowhere.

Ephesians 1:17. If this congregation had true saving faith in Christ, why would Paul say he wished they would get the Spirit through the Father of Christ?! Sounds like this faith in Christ that Paul was eluding to, was just wishful thinking, as a hope they would all be saved and they were current not truly saved in number. That is my take-away.
Eph 1: 15-23 is about a congregation where many were still trying out Christ and not saved as a whole community. Chapter 2 again is filled with this same though....He tells them what saves them...
In Ephesians 4:17 Paul reprimands them to stop living like stupid godless people. These words do not sound like words given to a congregation will great love for Christ!

I could go on...

As I continue to read this letter, this congregation was already on shaky ground at that time, in the late 50s or early 60s - despite a future Thomas intervention or not. Thomas does not save anyone....

I tend not to assume to many things written by other people, even with the best of intentions, and even with their formal education background, even regarding their assessment of scripture these days. Too many nice persuasive arguments and hardly any substance to back any of it up, many times. I rely of prayer and the Spirit within me.

PS..Revelation was most probably written by 66AD and it re-warned Ephesus that they never changed since Paul wrote to them. They still need to return to the love of Christ in their hearts to be truly saved.
 
Last edited:

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,952
2,538
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Does it not make sense that all of the Gospels and Epistles with the possible exception of Revelation were penned prior to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD? I find it hard to believe that if so why did none of the Apostles discuss it Post destruction. We know Peter and Paul were dead prior to 70 AD.

I do not find it difficult at all to believe that all The Gospel Books and Epistles by the Apostles were written prior to 70 A.D. And the Book of Revelation was actually authored by Jesus Christ, only penned by Apostle John as Christ gave it to him.
 

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is all speculation on the year Paul actually died RG.
He was born Saul of Tarsus c. 5 AD (4-6 AD) Tarsus, Cilicia, Roman Empire (modern-day Turkey)
And died c. 64-67 AD (aged 58–63) Rome, Italia, Roman Empire

So Paul could have written his letter to the Ephesians in his late 50s to early 60s. between the age of 56 - 62 years to be fair. The odds are very remote he would have written this letter to the Ephesians on his death bed.

And if Revelation picked up their 'change in heart' towards Christ say in 66 AD, 4-10 years is more than sufficient time to cause this congregation to 'slide.'

Now if you believe Wikipedia....

Died
c. 64/67 AD
Just saying, trying to be open minded and realistic and to not bind myself up in a corner so to speak.

We believe Paul penned his letter to Ephesis in 60 or 61, and that he was executed under Nero shortly after penning his second letter to Timothy, around 65
 
  • Like
Reactions: APAK

TEXBOW

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2021
623
539
93
65
Cypress
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I do not find it difficult at all to believe that all The Gospel Books and Epistles by the Apostles were written prior to 70 A.D. And the Book of Revelation was actually authored by Jesus Christ, only penned by Apostle John as Christ gave it to him.
I sorta butchered my post. I think it makes sense that all of the New Testament was written prior to 70 AD with the possible exception of Revelation. Because Revelation was authored by Jesus Christ via John and its message was specific and had no reason to go over historical events. I believe that Revelation was written later because of Paul's letter to the Church and his honoring of their Love for God and the Saints.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,766
5,608
113
www.CheeseburgersWithGod.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The coming in fire to end Adam's flesh and blood is still future. The wicked are still alive and kicking on the earth. They have not come to an end.
The wicked need only live and die, which has been going on since the beginning. Which continues until the fullness of the gentiles has come.

These are the times of which Jesus spoke, as in the days of Noah.

Then comes the end.
 
Last edited:

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,952
2,538
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I sorta butchered my post. I think it makes sense that all of the New Testament was written prior to 70 AD with the possible exception of Revelation. Because Revelation was authored by Jesus Christ via John and its message was specific and had no reason to go over historical events. I believe that Revelation was written later because of Paul's letter to the Church and his honoring of their Love for God and the Saints.

Lord Jesus already gave strong hints in Luke 21 about the destruction of Jerusalem and the 2nd temple that happened in 70 A.D., so I don't see why there would be need for the Apostles to cover it again later. And according to the prophetic style God used in the Books of His Old Testament prophets, giving a lot of info in a short condensed space, Lord Jesus did it in His Olivet discourse with pointing to the 70 A.D. destruction as a 'type' or blueprint for the very end of this world also, when the final temple in Jerusalem for Antichrist will be destroyed with Christ's future coming.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,820
2,457
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Does it not make sense that all of the Gospels and Epistles with the possible exception of Revelation were penned prior to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD? I find it hard to believe that if so why did none of the Apostles discuss it Post destruction. We know Peter and Paul were dead prior to 70 AD.

I haven't read all of the responses yet, but my take is as follows. I think it likely that the Revelation was written after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Reference to the temple in Rev 11 seems obviously symbolic, and the many visions that reference the temple make no effort to distinguish the heavenly temple from an earthly temple, implying the earthly temple no longer existed in the minds of his readers.

We know John would live long, since Jesus indicated that. And what he wrote would likely fit the reign of Domitian, even if it really had to do with an endtime Antichrist. What John writes about the endtimes certainly fit events in his own day!

The author of Hebrews certainly indicated he knew the temple was soon to fall. He indicated that Judaism's life was extended a little beyond the judgment of the cross, and was soon to fade away. As such, he contrasts the heavenly temple with an earthly temple soon to fail.

But John makes no such declaration, which seems to indicate his readers already know that the earthly temple has failed. Instead, he focuses strictlty on a heavenly tabernacle, without trying to explain that it is different from the old earthly temple.

Those who believe in an earlier date for the Revelation, prior to 70 AD, are often Preterists. I'm not a Preterist myself, although there are certainly elements in their interpretations that I would agree with. For example, I do believe that the Abomination of Desolation was fulfilled by the Roman armies in the vicinity of 70 AD.

But my point is only to suggest my own opinion rather than declare there is any way to make a final determination. It certainly is possible, in my mind, that John could've received his Revelation prior to 70 AD. I just don't think so, if we leave the Preterist presuppositions out completely.
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,239
937
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Revelation must have been Written after 70 AD, as it says nothing about the Temple and Jerusalem being destroyed by the Romans.
The Temple referred to in Revelation 11:1-3, cannot be the Second Temple, as there has been no 1260 day period when 2 Witnesses will prophecy.

There will be a new Temple in Jerusalem, many prophesies describe it. Zechariah 8:9
Deniers of this simply fail to see how different things will be after the Lord has sent His vengeance and fiery wrath to destroy His enemies Romans 1:18, Hebrews 10:27, 2 Peter 3:7
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,870
3,281
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I do believe that the Abomination of Desolation was fulfilled by the Roman armies in the vicinity of 70 AD.

But my point is only to suggest my own opinion rather than declare there is any way to make a final determination. It certainly is possible, in my mind, that John could've received his Revelation prior to 70 AD. I just don't think so, if we leave the Preterist presuppositions out completely.
Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and final judgement, as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.